250 replies to this topic

[Zakatak]

Iron Harlequin, on 12 May 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

And get back on topic?

One is a Davion, the other a Capellan.

I don't see anything strange about this.

[Melissia]

Iron Harlequin, on 12 May 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Couldn't you have just said that to begin with? Instead of deliberately bickering back and forth. And I'm neither condoning nor saying you two were wrong to defend yourselves, but comeon.... there's limits people.

I have said that repeatedly over the course of this thread, in dozens of different ways.

Not a single person has given a serious response to it, usually just dismissing it as "if they're good enough to hit a large, slow moving target with a fast moving projectile at fairly short range, then they deserve to kill their enemies in one shot."

Edited by Melissia, 12 May 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[Iron Harlequin]

Zakatak, on 12 May 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

One is a Davion, the other a Capellan.

I don't see anything strange about this.

I laughed so hard...

[Melissia]

It was pretty amusing.

[Mike Silva]

Melissia, on 12 May 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

I have said that repeatedly over the course of this thread, in dozens of different ways.

Not a single person has given a serious response to it, usually just dismissing it as "if they're good enough to hit a large, slow moving target with a fast moving projectile at fairly short range, then they deserve to kill their enemies in one shot."

A lot of different people have responded to a lot of what you've had to say. Just because you refuse to take any of it in doesn't mean that nobody has "given a serious response."

The actual insult here is that you genuinely seem to believe that people don't get your very simple point, that there's no way anybody who isn't "stupid" can't simply think that the conclusion you draw with your fact is the only viable conclusion.

[Melissia]

Mike Silva, on 12 May 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

A lot of different people have responded to a lot of what you've had to say. Just because you refuse to take any of it in doesn't mean that nobody has "given a serious response."

Quote one serious response.

[Mike Silva]

Melissia, on 12 May 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

Quote one serious response.

You're no longer worth that amount of effort. The actual debate is over.

Edited by Mike Silva, 12 May 2012 - 09:20 PM.

[Melissia]

IE, you don't actually know of one and are giving up.

Perhaps someone else can enlighten me as to what response you meant, though.

[Mike Silva]

Melissia, on 12 May 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

IE, you don't actually know of one and are giving up.

Perhaps someone else can enlighten me as to what response you meant, though.

You're absolutely free to believe whatever you want to believe. Thankfully you're not on the dev team, so it doesn't matter what your actual opinion is on anything.

[Iron Harlequin]

This argument :

Edited by Iron Harlequin, 12 May 2012 - 09:24 PM.

[Melissia]

Yes, it's going in circles. As I said before:

Melissia, on 12 May 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

*(honestly, no one in this thread is really going to change anyone else's mind, so declaring victory is just arrogant nonsense in the end-- we're just spending time talking about the game because we're all excited about it, not having a public policy debate or anything. The debate itself is the fun in these threads.)

Mike Silva, on 12 May 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

you're not on the dev team, so it doesn't matter what your actual opinion is on anything.

That also applies to you, so there's really no point of you saying that to begin with.

Edited by Melissia, 12 May 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

After reading this entire thing, and as a guy who likes to pilot a light harrasser (see random nut in MW4 who ops for an Artic Wolf with a NARC and Mlas, runs by, NARC's, lasers, then weaves away at 140kph praying to god that they guy who just got NARC'd and is about to be hit by 100+ LRMs misses me) I can say that if arm speeds are as fast as they are in the videos, then all it will take is that even in the mediums, take a centurion, pop off your missiles and the AC/10, pop in an AC/20 and there ya go, ultrauberleet light killer right there if one AC/20 round OHK's a light. It's as simple as that. With anyone with a decent amount of skill, then yes it will end up pulling everything to another heavy / assault brawlmatch in all likelyhood.
Which is not what we want.
I want to be able to live long enough to engage in hit and run, but if any capable pilot in a medium or heavy is able to one shot me as I'm making my first pass by them, then yes I'll likely end up being either A: Forced to run a heavier class brawler role (whereas I prefer hit-and-run / pop-in-pop-out sniping i.e. fast moving mech.) B: Run class anyway despite that I will suck at the game, possibly be forced to create more accounts /pay real life money in order to keep supporting my mech, or just get blown up each match within the first minuite of gameplay, or hide in a corner and lurk like a vulture for end-of-game surviving mechs with a sniper config, or C: quit game

[Ghost]

Is there an actual discussion here or are we just arguing in circles? I'm closing this thread for twelve hours. I think everyone needs a chance to calm down and rethink their angry words.

Edited by Ghost, 13 May 2012 - 07:18 AM.
Unpaused a little early.

[gamesguy]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Newsflash: a patrol boat doesn't take on a battleship. Just like a Raven doesn't take on an Atlas. Unless they're piloted by idiots or suicidal maniacs.

You're hilariously wrong. Torpedo and missile boats are designed to kill ships much bigger than themselves. 20 ton torpedo boats have sunken battleships displacing 20,000 tons, and it didn't take a fleet of them either. For example the battleship Szent Istvan was sunken by only two torpedo boats.

By contrast, an Atlas only outweighs a light mech by 3-4 times, which is not nearly as big a difference.

Mike Silva, on 12 May 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

You base this opinion on what? Every single 'mech in the game can, and should be able to die when hit with a sufficiently powerful weapon in certain spots. For all 'mechs this is the head, For many 'mechs up through the medium class you can add a center torso rear shot with an AC/20.

The only two spots you can hit a light 'mech with an AC/20 and destroy it in a single hit is the center torso and head.

So two spots instead of one.... wow, that's totally unfair and unbalanced. A complete outrage. The rules should totally be changed! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

An AC/20 is a weapon that you're supposed to FEAR. If you're in a light 'mech and you're not concerned about dancing with something that carries one you deserve to die quickly and often.

Then why bother bringing anything other than an assault mech? Heck, we can just go back to MW4 and bring the biggest assault mech with as many PPCs or gauss rifles as it'll fit with a jump jet and snipe at each other while playing jumping jacks. It really didn't matter if you were moving at 150km/h in a flea, it was still trivially easy to hit it from long range. World of Tanks has this same problem, the biggest tanks can easily destroy a light tank with one shot half way across the map no matter how fast it is going, and thus the game eventually ended up being a sniper duel between a bunch of superheavies cowering behind cover.

If this isn't to turn into the yawnfest that was MW4 mp, lighter mechs must have a use and must be able to survive more than a single hit from a large weapon. It seems to me that you don't actually care about fun or gameplay balance, but rather just want to stomp everyone else in a mech smaller than yours.

Edited by gamesguy, 13 May 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Actually Melissia, you were given a direct and honest answer by me.

FPS games like Tribes: Ascend, you can move your target ret so fast that you can literally turn the screen into nothing but a blur at 120fps, spinning on your axis so fast that the world is just a blur for as long as you want.

Moving your target ret in all of the previous MW titles works nothing like that, and from the multiple videos we have of MWO and how it currently plays, that is STILL not possible. I'm watching the guys in the MWO vids miss targets that are barely moving because the target ret doesn't move quickly and thanks to convergence, even when you've got the ret on target, a full alpha strike doesn't hit 1 single location..and in more then a few instances in the vids, more then a few of the weapons in a full alpha fail to hit the target at all.

So, you really want to keep telling us how well killer FPS skills will allow you to magically track and hit targets like they do in Tribes: Ascend when the GAME won't let you do that?

[gamesguy]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 May 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Actually Melissia, you were given a direct and honest answer by me.

FPS games like Tribes: Ascend, you can move your target ret so fast that you can literally turn the screen into nothing but a blur at 120fps, spinning on your axis so fast that the world is just a blur for as long as you want.

Moving your target ret in all of the previous MW titles works nothing like that, and from the multiple videos we have of MWO and how it currently plays, that is STILL not possible. I'm watching the guys in the MWO vids miss targets that are barely moving because the target ret doesn't move quickly and thanks to convergence, even when you've got the ret on target, a full alpha strike doesn't hit 1 single location..and in more then a few instances in the vids, more then a few of the weapons in a full alpha fail to hit the target at all.

So, you really want to keep telling us how well killer FPS skills will allow you to magically track and hit targets like they do in Tribes: Ascend when the GAME won't let you do that?

Then again a dev also "upgraded" a hunchback into "an absolute destroyer at close and medium range" by trading an AC-20 for an AC-5, 2 small lasers, and a MG with 3 tons of ammo. So maybe the devs just aren't very good at playing the game.

[Mike Silva]

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Then why bother bringing anything other than an assault mech? Heck, we can just go back to MW4 and bring the biggest assault mech with as many PPCs or gauss rifles as it'll fit with a jump jet and snipe at each other while playing jumping jacks. It really didn't matter if you were moving at 150km/h in a flea, it was still trivially easy to hit it from long range. World of Tanks has this same problem, the biggest tanks can easily destroy a light tank with one shot half way across the map no matter how fast it is going, and thus the game eventually ended up being a sniper duel between a bunch of superheavies cowering behind cover.

If this isn't to turn into the yawnfest that was MW4 mp, lighter mechs must have a use and must be able to survive more than a single hit from a large weapon. It seems to me that you don't actually care about fun or gameplay balance, but rather just want to stomp everyone else in a mech smaller than yours.

If your plan is to win by fielding nothing but Atlas', being restricted to whatever number (battle value, tonnage, whatever), what's to stop your enemy from using a mixture of lighter 'mechs and LRM fire support 'mechs from out-maneuvering you and raining down indirect fire on your assault 'mechs one at a time until there's nothing left? If this "role warfare" thing is going to work as it has been described, using nothing but assault class 'mechs just isn't going to work. With no scout you'll never have any idea where your enemy is, aside from walking towards the direction the missiles are being fired from.

I intend to start off as a "scout class" player, so no my motivation is not that I want to drive around in an Atlas and one shot everything.

But let me, again, point out that every single 'mech on the battlefield can go down with one hit. Atlas', Jenners, Hunchbacks, *everything* can be taken off the map with a single shot. So why is it that light 'mechs should be given a survivability advantage over the 'mechs that are big enough to carry the weapons that can one shot things?

[gamesguy]

Mike Silva, on 13 May 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

If your plan is to win by fielding nothing but Atlas', being restricted to whatever number (battle value, tonnage, whatever), what's to stop your enemy from using a mixture of lighter 'mechs and LRM fire support 'mechs from out-maneuvering you and raining down indirect fire on your assault 'mechs one at a time until there's nothing left? If this "role warfare" thing is going to work as it has been described, using nothing but assault class 'mechs just isn't going to work. With no scout you'll never have any idea where your enemy is, aside from walking towards the direction the missiles are being fired from.

AFAIK radar is line of sight in this game, which means in order to spot an assault mech, the light must also come within sight and therefore gun range, which means it gets one shotted. In addition, LRM hits tend to spread out all over the place, which means in order to destroy a target you pretty much have to completely saturate it with fire. The objections you are spouting now also applied to MW4, yet snipers still dominated. LRMs had the same disadvantage in that game because it took 4+ volleys to destroy an assault mech with a longbow yet only one or two alpha strikes from a jump jetting laser/gauss boat easily destroyed even the heaviest of assault mechs.

Quote

I intend to start off as a "scout class" player, so no my motivation is not that I want to drive around in an Atlas and one shot everything.

But let me, again, point out that every single 'mech on the battlefield can go down with one hit. Atlas', Jenners, Hunchbacks, *everything* can be taken off the map with a single shot. So why is it that light 'mechs should be given a survivability advantage over the 'mechs that are big enough to carry the weapons that can one shot things?

Frankly I don't believe you, talk is cheap.

Explain to me how an Atlas gets one shotted. If you let another assault mech slowly manuever behind you and get off an alpha strike at point blank range at your rear armor, then you deserved to die. This is completely different from a light mech that randomly dies to one shot despite running at top speed and trying to evade shots.

Anyways all this talk is pointless, if you actually paid attention to the gameplay videos that has been shown it should be fairly obvious that the mechs have boosted hp values.

Edited by gamesguy, 13 May 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Nighthound]

There is one other Point to be made :

I watched that Tribes Video (never played it) today and there was one thing that immediately catched my eye ..... that shooter actually never hit anyone. He shot at the ground where the target was bound to land .... that's not difficult at all, he is shooting at a stationary target, aka the ground, and lets the blast kill his target. Thats a valid tactic in those kind of games, but it won't work in MW:O because there are no splash damage weapons.

[Mike Silva]

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

AFAIK radar is line of sight in this game, which means in order to spot an assault mech, the light must also come within sight and therefore gun range, which means it gets one shotted. The objections you are spouting now also applied to MW4, yet snipers still dominated.

This is where skill comes into play. I guess you're under the assumption that in order for a scout to do it's job it always has to be within range, and in the firing arc of all the big guns.

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Frankly I don't believe you, talk is cheap.

This was uncalled for.

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Explain to me how an Atlas gets one shotted. If you let another assault mech slowly manuever behind you and get off an alpha strike at point blank range at your rear armor, then you deserved to die. This is completely different from a light mech that randomly dies to one shot despite running at top speed and trying to evade shots.

Are you *really* asking this question? Do you actually need me to explain this to you? Have you ever played a Battletech game in your life? Can you do math?

The maximum amount of armor you can mount on the head of *any* 'mech is 9, with an internal structure rating of 3. 9 + 3 = 12

Go find a weapons table somewhere and count the number of weapons that can do 12 points of damage or more. Then count the number of weapons that can do 10 points of damage with a chance of a crit on the cockpit.

I'll drop the rude tone if you do. Otherwise, I can do this all day. But seriously, I would prefer that we maintain a civil tone. No more "talk is cheap" comments, please.

Edited by Mike Silva, 13 May 2012 - 10:15 AM.