250 replies to this topic

[Melissia]

Max Grayson, on 11 May 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

You can not honestly be saying you want light mechs to be able to withstand 2 or 3 alphas

I never said that.

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[Kargush]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Right, that's why there's been no evidence of one hit kill alpha strikes either-- they're trying to avoid bad game design.

No, that's not "trying to avoid bad game design", it's pandering to the entitled idiots who think their lights should be able to take on larger mechs on a one-to-one basis.

Newsflash: a patrol boat doesn't take on a battleship. Just like a Raven doesn't take on an Atlas. Unless they're piloted by idiots or suicidal maniacs.

[Melissia]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

No, that's not "trying to avoid bad game design", it's pandering to the entitled idiots who think their lights should be able to take on larger mechs on a one-to-one basis.

I thought it was avoiding pandering to entitled idiots who think that the game should be nothing but assault 'mech spam, myself.

[Kargush]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

I thought it was avoiding pandering to entitled idiots who think that the game should be nothing but assault 'mech spam, myself.

Who said anything about assault mech spam? There is a middle ground here, but you're so fired up in righteous fire you can't see it for all the flames you're trying to fan up.

Sure, everyone can take assaults and go at it. But that'll make for long slogging matches, where they slowly lumber into range and then blaze away.

But yes, enjoy your strawman. I hope it keeps you warm at night.

[Malkenson]

In TT, a Light Mechs speed would make up for its lighter armor. After all, if you can not hit it, you can not stop it.

But in a game like this, will that speed translate over into not being hit as often?
We do not know yet.

If not, than I'm all for more armor over fire power.
Otherwise, Role Warfare fails, since light scouting units are to frail to last in a match, and are of no value.

Some times fun <=> reality, and I'd rather everyone has fun playing what ever they choose to.

[Max Grayson]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Who said anything about assault mech spam? There is a middle ground here, but you're so fired up in righteous fire you can't see it for all the flames you're trying to fan up.

Sure, everyone can take assaults and go at it. But that'll make for long slogging matches, where they slowly lumber into range and then blaze away.

But yes, enjoy your strawman. I hope it keeps you warm at night.

So whens the wedding?

Edited by Max Grayson, 11 May 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[Melissia]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

There is a middle ground here

And that's the ground that I'm arguing for.

Don't give me this bullshit about "straw man", when you're the one doing that fallacy.

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[Banditman]

Yes, actually. A light absolutely DOES need to be able to withstand 2 or 3 alphas, because frankly, that's *exactly* what's going to happen when it gets real. Think about what we know.

Lights are going to be used as scout mechs. Good. I get that. It makes sense. That means that they are going to be the first to engage the enemy as well. I know for a fact that if my lance sees a light mech coming, the FIRST thing we are going to do is focus fire alpha that mech in an attempt to remove the "eyes" of our enemy.

How attractive does being a scout sound when put that way? "Ok Bill, run up ahead here until you find us a target. You'll probably get killed as soon as you do, but thanks!"

Scouts need the ability to not only find the enemy, but survive the finding of the enemy for long enough to disengage and gain the cover of their supporting teammates.

[Kargush]

Malkenson, on 11 May 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

In TT, a Light Mechs speed would make up for its lighter armor. After all, if you can not hit it, you can not stop it.

But in a game like this, will that speed translate over into not being hit as often?
We do not know yet.

Until everyone learns to lead their target at all ranges, speed will do a lot to help them. As will keeping their heads in cover where they can find it.

Some players are going to have trouble hitting an Altas that's standing still. Others will bullseye a speeding Spider while their cockpit is shaking. It's a fact of life.

[Max Grayson]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Don't give me this bullshit about "straw man", when you're the one doing that fallacy.

What the Hell, why can you swear and no one else can?

[Melissia]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Some players are going to have trouble hitting an Altas that's standing still. Others will bullseye a speeding Spider while their cockpit is shaking. It's a fact of life.

Ergo, the light 'mech needs to be survivable enough to actually be able to fulfill its role even against skilled marksmen.

[Max Grayson]

Banditman, on 11 May 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Yes, actually. A light absolutely DOES need to be able to withstand 2 or 3 alphas, because frankly, that's *exactly* what's going to happen when it gets real. Think about what we know.

Lights are going to be used as scout mechs. Good. I get that. It makes sense. That means that they are going to be the first to engage the enemy as well. I know for a fact that if my lance sees a light mech coming, the FIRST thing we are going to do is focus fire alpha that mech in an attempt to remove the "eyes" of our enemy.

How attractive does being a scout sound when put that way? "Ok Bill, run up ahead here until you find us a target. You'll probably get killed as soon as you do, but thanks!"

Scouts need the ability to not only find the enemy, but survive the finding of the enemy for long enough to disengage and gain the cover of their supporting teammates.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you, as scout run up a "hill" and get spotted and one shotted that is your reward for being a fucktard

A proper scout should have the tools and electronics to spot the enemy without being seen. if a scout is in a position to take fire then they failed as a scout

Edited by Max Grayson, 11 May 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[Melissia]

Max Grayson, on 11 May 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

What the Hell, why can you swear and no one else can?

I have no clue-- I thought it would have been auto-censored?

Max Grayson, on 11 May 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you, as scout run up a "hill" and get spotted and one shotted that is your reward for being a fucktard

See what I mean about peoplewho want the game to be dominated by assault 'mechs?

[Kargush]

Max Grayson, on 11 May 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

So whens the wedding?

I don't know. When's a good time for you?

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

And that's the ground that I'm arguing for.

No, you're arguing for allowing lights to go toe to toe with assaults, however briefly, instead of actually having to keep out of the way until the assault is distracted.

Quote

Don't give me this bullshit about "straw man", when you're the one doing that fallacy.

Is that so?

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

You try to claim light 'mech pilots are whining, but all I see from you is whining from an assault 'mech player that wants to play the game in easy mode.

I never made a claim to wanting assault mech spam, nor making assaults "easy mode." Those are your words, representing my opinion and stance as something it is not. The very essence of strawman BS.

[Melissia]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

No, you're arguing for allowing lights to go toe to toe with assaults

That's just you making **** up.

i'm saying light 'mechs need to be survivable enough to do their jobs.

Nobody will play light 'mechs if they can never actually do anything because they'll just die in the first salvo every time. And they WILL be targeted by everyone on the opposing team the moment they catch sight of them.

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Kargush]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Ergo, the light 'mech needs to be survivable enough to actually be able to fulfill its role even against skilled marksmen.

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

i'm saying light 'mechs need to be survivable enough to do their jobs.

He is, if he uses his head. By evading and staying out of sight.

But that takes skill.. And sadly, far too many people just want to push buttons and not care for consequences.

It's the same BS that leads to tanks being banned on RO2 servers, and assault spam on DoDS. Anything else is too hard to grasp, or requires someone to put in some time to learn rather than just being able to jump in and go pew pew pew.

Edited by kargush, 11 May 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Max Grayson]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

See what I mean about peoplewho want the game to be dominated by assault 'mechs?

I doubt that anyone wants this game to turn into assualt mechs online?

i was thinking of playing medium and fast heavy myself.

I truly want all mechs to have a place in a lance and inother MMO's like WOT they do, but a scout should never ever think they should be able to go toe to toe with a heavy

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

TNobody will play light 'mechs if they can never actually do anything because they'll just die in the first salvo every time. And they WILL be targeted by everyone on the opposing team the moment they catch sight of them.

and thats why a good scout is worth their weight in gold, but very few gamers have the patience to play that "role" right and after deeper thinking on the matter very few guild leaders or battle leaders have the patience to properly use a good scout

Edited by Max Grayson, 11 May 2012 - 01:15 PM.

[Kargush]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Nobody will play light 'mechs if they can never actually do anything because they'll just die in the first salvo every time. And they WILL be targeted by everyone on the opposing team the moment they catch sight of them.

Yes, they will be targeted. As will every other mech out there. Light mechs are light. Captain Obvious aside, that implies a lack of armour, a lack of weapons, and a focus on speed.

Any mech that is dumb enough to go into the open will take fire and die. This is true of both lights and heavies.

And what's with the assumption you're making that not only will the alpha strike hit with every single weapon, but that there will also be enough time to actually line up the shot? A light mech scooting from cover to cover (as they should, I would remind you) is going to be a fleeting target, seen for a quick second, if that much.

[Banditman]

If 2 - 3 alphas will pop a light, then there will be no use having them at all. None.

12v12 engagement practically guarantees that every mech is going to face that sort of fire on a consistent basis.

Sure, if we were back in the old days of 2v2 and 4v4, ok, the chances of any mech eating 2-3 alphas is pretty low. But in 12 v 12, it's practically guaranteed. Heaven help us if 24v24 comes to fruition. I think it would be fun, but you have to plan for that in your survival envelope.

[Abrahms]

The better route is to make all the weapon's have closer damage AND/OR make all the mechs have closer armor models.

I.E. Put more tonnage into the engine, coolants, etc, so that the heavier the mech gets, it only gets so much more armor/damage.

That way mediums can challenge, heavies, and heavies, can challenge assaults, and lights can challenge mediums, but the larger mechs, of course, always have the 1v1 advantage.

But closing the gap would make team play relevant (pick your role) and then the size of the mech helps you with that role rather than helping you dominate.