250 replies to this topic

[Nighthound]

So much for 12 hour cooldown .... keep it up and this thread gets closed for good.

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

AFAIK radar is line of sight in this game, which means in order to spot an assault mech, the light must also come within sight and therefore gun range, which means it gets one shotted. In addition, LRM hits tend to spread out all over the place, which means in order to destroy a target you pretty much have to completely saturate it with fire. The objections you are spouting now also applied to MW4, yet snipers still dominated. LRMs were also rare because it took 4+ volleys to destroy an assault mech with a longbow yet only one or two alpha strikes from a jump jetting laser/gauss boat easily destroyed even the heaviest of assault mechs.

LOS is not equal to Gun range, for the simple fact that there are different ranges for differnt guns. We don't know how LOS will work, IF (BIG ONE) the Devs implement LOS like in TT then this would mean 60 hexes ( 60 x 30 = 1800 meters), and nothing (except artillery) can shot that far.

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Frankly I don't believe you, talk is cheap.

Explain to me how an Atlas gets one shotted. If you let another assault mech slowly manuever behind you and get off an alpha strike at point blank range at your rear armor, then you deserved to die. This is completely different from a light mech that randomly dies to one shot despite running at top speed and trying to evade shots.

How? Easy .... I put 2 ERPPCs into my Jenner (yes that is possible) and aim for his head, if I hit, he is done. As is everyone else btw.

All Mechs have a maximum of 12 HitPoints in/on their head so everything that can do these 12 Points of damage and has a Pilot behind them that can use these weapons accurately (how difficult this would be, we don't know jet) can do this.

[Aldinvor]

*sigh* this thread is like letting a bad fart go in a confined space, it might be harmless initially, but it festers into something very unpleasant that offends everyone involved. Someone needs to open a window...

[gamesguy]

Mike Silva, on 13 May 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

This is where skill comes into play. I guess you're under the assumption that in order for a scout to do it's job it always has to be within range, and in the firing arc of all the big guns.

This is sheer nonsense. I don't care how "skilled" you are when you cannot simultaneously evade fire from 12 enemy mechs. I have real world evidence backing me up. Go take a light mech into a game of MW4 and see how long you last, you'll die to the first sniper assault that spots you. It takes far less "skill" to kill a light mech with a sniper assault in MW4 than it does for the light mech to somehow evade fire from nearly hitscan weapons.

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This was uncalled for.

Given your attitude and poor debating tactics so far in this thread, it is completely called for.

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Are you *really* asking this question? Do you actually need me to explain this to you? Have you ever played a Battletech game in your life? Can you do math?

The maximum amount of armor you can mount on the head of *any* 'mech is 9, with an internal structure rating of 3. 9 + 3 = 12

Go find a weapons table somewhere and count the number of weapons that can do 12 points of damage or more. Then count the number of weapons that can do 10 points of damage with a chance of a crit on the cockpit.

I'll drop the rude tone if you do. Otherwise, I can do this all day. But seriously, I would prefer that we maintain a civil tone. No more "talk is cheap" comments, please.

Why are you spouting tabletop statistics at me? If you had paid attention at all to the gameplay videos that has been released it should have been extremely obvious to you that mechs have much more hp in this game than they do in TT, which compensates for the lack of dice rolling.

Nighthound, on 13 May 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

So much for 12 hour cooldown .... keep it up and this thread gets closed for good.


LOS is not equal to Gun range, for the simple fact that there are different ranges for differnt guns. We don't know how LOS will work, IF (BIG ONE) the Devs implement LOS like in TT then this would mean 60 hexes ( 60 x 30 = 1800 meters), and nothing (except artillery) can shot that far.

Have you watched any of the gameplay videos? No mech has that sort of detection range.

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How? Easy .... I put 2 ERPPCs into my Jenner (yes that is possible) and aim for his head, if I hit, he is done. As is everyone else btw.

All Mechs have a maximum of 12 HitPoints in/on their head so everything that can do these 12 Points of damage and has a Pilot behind them that can use these weapons accurately (how difficult this would be, we don't know jet) can do this.

ERPPCs do not exist in this game, try again.

Again with the TT statistics like they are relevant to a video game adaptation. Do you also roll dice when you click to fire? No? Then why do you assume HP levels will be the same when even a casual viewing of a gameplay video would show you that mechs have a lot more hp than they do in TT?

Edited by gamesguy, 13 May 2012 - 10:27 AM.

[Mike Silva]

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

This is sheer nonsense. I don't care how "skilled" you are when you cannot simultaneously evade fire from 12 enemy mechs. I have real world evidence backing me up. Go take a light mech into a game of MW4 and see how long you last, you'll die to the first sniper assault that spots you.



Given your attitude in this thread and poor debating tactics, it is completely called for.



Why are you spouting tabletop statistics at me? If you had paid attention at all to the gameplay videos that has been released it should have been extremely obvious to you that mechs have much more hp in this game than they do in TT, which compensates for the lack of dice rolling.

I try to extend an olive branch and I get shot in the face for it. Stay classy, sir. I've changed my mind, you're not someone I care to continue talking to.

[Andar89]

Max Grayson, on 11 May 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Well thats exactly my point, its called role warfare, if a player acutally wants to fight other mechs better drive a medium, heavy or assualty. Either play a scout like you should or play a heavier mech........or there is always hello kitty online

as someone mentioned this is NOT TT, or the MW series this is MWO with role warfare

Edit: at first i was going to fix the spelling of "assault" but assualty appeals to me for some reason

You good sir do not understand the role of a cavallery light mech, its pretty much the same people in WOT wo think an AMX 13 is a crap tank because its classified as "Light" until they have a full mag placed into their King Tiger in a critical Situation and go boom, only to cry and flame.

and sorry for beeing late with the first pages of this

Edited by Andar89, 13 May 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[gamesguy]

Mike Silva, on 13 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

I try to extend an olive branch and I get shot in the face for it. Stay classy, sir. I've changed my mind, you're not someone I care to continue talking to.

Yes because "can you do math?" is an olive branch.

You are clearly delusional, thank god the devs have decided to go a different route than what you wanted as evidenced by the gameplay videos.

Andar89, on 13 May 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

You good sir do not understand the role of a cavallery light mech, its pretty much the same people in WOT wo think an AMX 13 is a crap tank because its classified as "Light" until they have a full mag placed into their King Tiger in a critical Situation and go boom, only to cry and flame.

I quit WoT long before they implemented the French, have they fixed the problem where all the top matches are nothing but tier 10 superheavies and tier 9 mediums?

When I played even a Maus could put a round into a leopard going full speed fairly easily once they fixed the warping bug.

Edited by gamesguy, 13 May 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Uh...Gamesguy, maybe you should check out the new video that Massively is showing off right now, LOS is a LOT farther then any weapon range in MWO currently and the video shows that, not to mention that the little Scout in the video is picking up targets outside of his LOS, some sitting behind some pretty good sized hills no less. And that little Scout doesn't get 1 shotted by anyone in the video, even though he DOES get shot at a good amount.

HP values really can't be computed from the videos, since most of the weapons in use are Lasers, which, in case you missed it, do NOT apply all their damage at the moment of firing/impact with the target, they are a DOT weapon in MWO. So go ahead and fire a full alpha of 4-6 Med Lasers, unless both you AND the target are totally stationary, you ain't doing all that much damage to any specific location..which is clearly visible in the videos as well.

'I don't want to die to a single shot, EVER! It's not FAIR!'

That's what it seems to boil down to for some of you, has nothing to do with lightly armored Mechs getting cored by an AC20, which can happen to a Medium as well as a Light btw, even to Heavy an Assault chassis' if you can get around behind them with that AC20. Sorry, but that IS something that's always been part of the BTech universe, there's some big guns out there as well as big Mechs, and some of those big guns WILL ruin your day with a single shot under the right circumstances no matter HOW big your Mech is..or how little.

[Yeach]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 May 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

'I don't want to die to a single shot, EVER! It's not FAIR!'

That's what it seems to boil down to for some of you, has nothing to do with lightly armored Mechs getting cored by an AC20, which can happen to a Medium as well as a Light btw, even to Heavy an Assault chassis' if you can get around behind them with that AC20. Sorry, but that IS something that's always been part of the BTech universe, there's some big guns out there as well as big Mechs, and some of those big guns WILL ruin your day with a single shot under the right circumstances no matter HOW big your Mech is..or how little.

Nobody picked up this point on another thread so I am going to throw it here.

Yeach, on 13 May 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

I'm going to go at this in another angle.
In general I think the more shots you take, the harder they are to hit on the same area.

My simple example.
Medium lasers per TT rules 5 damage per 10 seconds; lets say 5 damage per 10 second recycle per se
Lets say you have 4 medium lasers on your mech.
TT rules indicate that if you fire all 4 medium lasers, theres a high chance that all 4 medium lasers would hit different places.

Perhaps the best way to simulate this is to quarter the damage to 1.25 dmg and quarter the recycle time 2.5 seconds. (In 10 seconds real time this still equals TT)

Each GROUP shot does 5 damge
So your first grouped shots would hit one spot, your 2nd hits another, your 3rd shot hits another and your 4th hits another.

This would be one interpretation of the distrubution of shots in TT translated to simulated live-firing.

It would also mean that firing a headshot kill from a gauss or AC20 is very hard (the TT 1/36 chance) not because of each shot being hard to hit a specific place; but that multiples shots to hit a specific spot is hard.

[gamesguy]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 May 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Uh...Gamesguy, maybe you should check out the new video that Massively is showing off right now, LOS is a LOT farther then any weapon range in MWO currently and the video shows that, not to mention that the little Scout in the video is picking up targets outside of his LOS, some sitting behind some pretty good sized hills no less. And that little Scout doesn't get 1 shotted by anyone in the video, even though he DOES get shot at a good amount.

I did watch that video, the scout was not spotting targets from 1800 meters. No, the scout didn't get one shotted, because the game has boosted HP values.

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HP values really can't be computed from the videos, since most of the weapons in use are Lasers, which, in case you missed it, do NOT apply all their damage at the moment of firing/impact with the target, they are a DOT weapon in MWO. So go ahead and fire a full alpha of 4-6 Med Lasers, unless both you AND the target are totally stationary, you ain't doing all that much damage to any specific location..which is clearly visible in the videos as well.

Actually I can. In the assault showcase video the atlas shoots a hunchback that started with red CT and LT armor with an AC/20, a volley of lasers, and a volley of SRMs and the hunchback was still in red armor afterwards, unless red starts at 70% or something this means mechs definitely have a lot more hp than the TT version.

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'I don't want to die to a single shot, EVER! It's not FAIR!'

That's what it seems to boil down to for some of you, has nothing to do with lightly armored Mechs getting cored by an AC20, which can happen to a Medium as well as a Light btw, even to Heavy an Assault chassis' if you can get around behind them with that AC20. Sorry, but that IS something that's always been part of the BTech universe, there's some big guns out there as well as big Mechs, and some of those big guns WILL ruin your day with a single shot under the right circumstances no matter HOW big your Mech is..or how little.

Nonsense, we just don't want this game to boil down to a bunch of snipers playing jumping jacks the way MW4 did.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Yeach, the way PGI has done the Lasers would indicate their thinking is along the same lines, they are a DOT, damage is applied over time as the beam fires and unless both target and firing platform are totally stationary, that damage is spread out over multiple sections due to movement and spreading of/lack of convergence.

AC20..eh..could be argued either way on it working like that due to the fluff descriptions of how they work, so I'm good with however PGI decides to implement them.

Gauss and PPCs..no, they are single shot/impact/damage weapons, there's no spread to deal with, so they'll impart their full damage to a single location per shot.

[Nighthound]

Dear Mods, one last time, after that I give up.

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

This is sheer nonsense. I don't care how "skilled" you are when you cannot simultaneously evade fire from 12 enemy mechs. I have real world evidence backing me up. Go take a light mech into a game of MW4 and see how long you last, you'll die to the first sniper assault that spots you. It takes far less "skill" to kill a light mech with a sniper assault in MW4 than it does for the light mech to somehow evade fire from nearly hitscan weapons.

MW:O won't be like MW4, the Devs said that they would try to keep it as close to TT as they can or as it makes sense.

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Given your attitude and poor debating tactics so far in this thread, it is completely called for.

Wow, just wow *shakeshead*

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Why are you spouting tabletop statistics at me? If you had paid attention at all to the gameplay videos that has been released it should have been extremely obvious to you that mechs have much more hp in this game than they do in TT, which compensates for the lack of dice rolling.

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Again with the TT statistics like they are relevant to a video game adaptation. Do you also roll dice when you click to fire? No? Then why do you assume HP levels will be the same when even a casual viewing of a gameplay video would show you that mechs have a lot more hp than they do in TT?

Ah, so the fact that there is a Video from early F&F beta with some numbers on the side tells you this ..... this is called an assumption which will or will not turn out to be true. For now it's just a possibility .... otherwise show me a Dev post and I will appologize.

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Have you watched any of the gameplay videos? No mech has that sort of detection range.

LOS is not Detection Range. LOS is done with your eyes it is calles Line of SIGHT for a reason, Detection Range is your Computer telling you there is something you have missed.
In regards to the Video. Where do all the Red-Top-Down-Triangles in the Distance come from if the Detection Range is only a few hundret meters?

gamesguy, on 13 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

ERPPCs do not exist in this game, try again.

........... Yes they do they were rediscoverd in 3037 .... there is even a Dev Post (I can't find at the Moment) where all weapons were listed .... and even if not 2 PPCs would do the same trick.

[Yeach]

Kristov, yes you're right about the Lasers;

The relevant part is actually the last part about the AC20 and Gauss.
Where it is not one shot; but two or more consequtive shots.
ie
I'm more in favor of the mechcommander damage/recycle. Where a gauss is 7.5 damage / 5 seconds which equals 15 damge in 10 sec.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gamesguy, as Nighthound pointed out so well, those red triangles off in the distance..enemy Mechs being spotted via Line of Sight, which has nothing to do with weapon range, it's as far as the Mark I Eyeball can see(which is naturally set to a limit by the game engine, appears to be a little TOO great in the videos since some of those target markers are behind terrain which blocks LOS..in all the videos that's something that happens).

As to the damage that Hunch takes in the Assault video, no idea how many of those weapons hit nor where they actually hit...I also noticed the Atlas itself seemed to take 0 damage despite taking multiple PPCs shots from that K2 Catapult, so..really..you want to use a video that's obviously got damage values borked as your benchmark? I mean, that's entirely up to you, setting your expectations of damage values on a video where godmode is obviously turned on...

Yeach, like I said, lasers and ACs, yeah, I'm fine with PGI setting them to do a DOT, especially on the AC10 and AC20..not so much the AC2 and AC5 Gauss on the other hand..no, it fires a single projectile that does massive damage with a long reload time, that's how it's described in the fluff after all, unlike the ACs which fire streams of projectiles so a DOT/spread damage on the big ACs is fine.

And it's 10 damage for IS Gauss, gotta stop thinking Clan Tech..I know..it's hard to do, but that's what we're starting with, IS Tech

[Yeach]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 May 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Gamesguy, as Nighthound pointed out so well, those red triangles off in the distance..enemy Mechs being spotted via Line of Sight, which has nothing to do with weapon range, it's as far as the Mark I Eyeball can see(which is naturally set to a limit by the game engine, appears to be a little TOO great in the videos since some of those target markers are behind terrain which blocks LOS..in all the videos that's something that happens).

As to the damage that Hunch takes in the Assault video, no idea how many of those weapons hit nor where they actually hit...I also noticed the Atlas itself seemed to take 0 damage despite taking multiple PPCs shots from that K2 Catapult, so..really..you want to use a video that's obviously got damage values borked as your benchmark? I mean, that's entirely up to you, setting your expectations of damage values on a video where godmode is obviously turned on...

Yeach, like I said, lasers and ACs, yeah, I'm fine with PGI setting them to do a DOT, especially on the AC10 and AC20..not so much the AC2 and AC5 Gauss on the other hand..no, it fires a single projectile that does massive damage with a long reload time, that's how it's described in the fluff after all, unlike the ACs which fire streams of projectiles so a DOT/spread damage on the big ACs is fine.

And it's 10 damage for IS Gauss, gotta stop thinking Clan Tech..I know..it's hard to do, but that's what we're starting with, IS Tech

Disagree with the Gauss single massive damage but agree that AC2/AC5 need a boost somehow

You're confusing yourself... ER PPC is 10 damage; Clan ERPPC is 15.
Gauss has always been 15 damage. IS or Clan (i even checked on Sarna)

[Kristov Kerensky]

Yeach, on 13 May 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Disagree with the Gauss single massive damage but agree that AC2/AC5 need a boost somehow

You're confusing yourself... ER PPC is 10 damage; Clan ERPPC is 15.
Gauss has always been 15 damage. IS or Clan (i even checked on Sarna)

Ok, confusing the PPC with the Gauss damage..been while since I used old IS Tech Even so, it's described in all the fluff the same way, gauss fires a single round that does massive kinetic damage and has a long reload time, so making it a DOT or doing half damage and firing 2x as fast, I'm not good with that as it has no standing in the lore at all.

[LordKnightFandragon]

I liked the MW3 damage model...it was just about right for me. Of course, if this game is to mimic the TT then that closely resembled MW2....where only a few PPCs will blow apart a big mech and even medium lasers can rip you apart rather quickly. MW4 yeah, that thing's damage model was like World of Tanks and their penetration mechanics...totally and utterly unsensible. You get 130 armor but 130 armor is just this ambiguous number that gives you nothing to go on, the weapon damage was just an arbitrary pointless number..you just fired and fired until the mech died...no real gauge on how mcuh damage w/e mech can take...I hope they mimic the TT as closely as possible for damage. MWLL...that game just made no sense the short time i played it...way back in its like 2nd release after Beta....I hope Light mechs arent like MW4....you just have to shoot and shoot and shoot with AC10s, PPCs and Gauss Rifles and somehow the thing is entirely blacked out yet still running around......Light mechs should have to be careful and fall quickly...of course all mechs should fall fairly quickly, even bigguns, if they get gang banged then they fall..this game should be based on Teamwork, and deisnged as such...of course, the players never will unite and play as a team and this game will go the wya of WoT...but the idea I hope gets put in place...I want this game to reward skill, not "Oh, I got a lucky RNG love and killed you, while you fired at me 50 times bu the RNG said screw you and you win all on an RNG..that is how WoT does it..all RNG.....you win or lose based on RNG, not skill so much..there are some games where the enemy is just clueless, rushing right at you and the entire team fires nad fires and fires and just cant seem to kill something while in another game everything you fire seems to just blow the hell outta everything....take the RNG for damage and either stuff it somewhere very dark and stanky or DONT copy WoT with their + - 25% BS...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 13 May 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[Melissia]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 May 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Actually Melissia, you were given a direct and honest answer by me.

Just not a good one.

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 May 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Moving your target ret in all of the previous MW titles works nothing like that

I recommend you look at the video I posted and related videos. You don't need rapid reactions to hit an enemy at long range, you just need to be competent enough to lead your target. Leading one's target is not difficult.

Nighthound, on 13 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

that shooter actually never hit anyone.

The "Blue Plate Special" medal is only awarded for direct hits.

Edited by Melissia, 13 May 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[gamesguy]

Nighthound, on 13 May 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

Dear Mods, one last time, after that I give up.


MW:O won't be like MW4, the Devs said that they would try to keep it as close to TT as they can or as it makes sense.

Except this is a videogame, not a dice rolling game, unless you want your shots to randomly miss half the time because a dice roller said so.
To balance the ability to snipe even a fast moving light mech at long range, mechs must have more hp, this is backed up by the gameplay videos that have been released so far. It's easy to say "it won't be like MW4", but how will it not be like MW4? How will the game prevent everything except assault mechs from becoming obsolete the way they did in MW4?

One solution, which seems to be the solution the devs have taken, is to simply boost HP values so light mechs can actually survive if it is spotted for a couple of seconds.

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Wow, just wow *shakeshead*

I call it like I see it.

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Ah, so the fact that there is a Video from early F&F beta with some numbers on the side tells you this ..... this is called an assumption which will or will not turn out to be true. For now it's just a possibility .... otherwise show me a Dev post and I will appologize.

And what evidence do you have for your assumptions? Nothing. I at least have gameplay videos on my side.

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LOS is not Detection Range. LOS is done with your eyes it is calles Line of SIGHT for a reason, Detection Range is your Computer telling you there is something you have missed.
In regards to the Video. Where do all the Red-Top-Down-Triangles in the Distance come from if the Detection Range is only a few hundret meters?

Whatever, my point is LOS is not 1800 meters, not that there are weapons that can hit that far anyways.

From allied scouts, DUH.

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........... Yes they do they were rediscoverd in 3037 .... there is even a Dev Post (I can't find at the Moment) where all weapons were listed .... and even if not 2 PPCs would do the same trick.

1. You are once again assuming HP levels will be the same as tabletop despite the lack of dice rolling for hits.
2. Regular PPCs have shorter range, bringing the user into more danger.

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 May 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

As to the damage that Hunch takes in the Assault video, no idea how many of those weapons hit nor where they actually hit...I also noticed the Atlas itself seemed to take 0 damage despite taking multiple PPCs shots from that K2 Catapult, so..really..you want to use a video that's obviously got damage values borked as your benchmark? I mean, that's entirely up to you, setting your expectations of damage values on a video where godmode is obviously turned on...

Dude we can see exactly where the weapons hit, the sections that are hit glow. When the Atlas took hits its armor flashed red to show which sections had been hit as well. You are assuming that damage values are borked(if they are borked, then how did that hunchback get into red armor?) when you have no evidence to backup that assumption. It's far more likely that HP values are simply boosted.

Edited by gamesguy, 13 May 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[Melissia]

Meh. I just hope that my Raven is durable enough that I can quickly pop in, tag someone with a NARC and pop their backside with the SRM6 and medium lasers, and then run and hide without being one-shotted by a half-decent marksman. Because I can't assume like many people in this thread that other people in this game can't aim worth jack and will only ever only pay attention to what's directly in front of them

Edited by Melissia, 13 May 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[Bloodycrow]

LordKnightFandragon, on 13 May 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

MWLL...that game just made no sense the short time i played it...way back in its like 2nd release after Beta....

MWLL is still in beta, but the damage is much different now than back when the values were closer to TT. Actually closer to MW3, in my opinion. You should check it out, if you have the ability.