250 replies to this topic

[Melissia]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

He is, if he uses his head. By evading and staying out of sight.

That's not their only role. A Raven, for example, must stay within line of sight and range long enough to mark its target with its NARC, and it is mostly armed with short-ranged weapons, much like the Cicada. And let's not even get in to the poor Urbanmech.

And to give another example, the Wolfhound is designed to be a fast brawler, not a pure scout. As was the Falcon Hawk, the Firebee, the Jenner, the Longshot, and the Venom. All of these are fast 'mechs with lots of medium to short ranged weapons, intended to deal damage, not to avoid combat entirely like you suggest.

And other light 'mechs are snipers, but this still means that they have to stay in the line of fire to fulfill their role even if it's at very long range. The Hollander and the Panther come to mind.


Claiming that all light 'mechs should have the exact same playstyle while other types of 'mechs can have multiple playstyles is just stupid.

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Kargush]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

That's not their only role. A Raven, for example, must stay within line of sight and range long enough to mark its target with its NARC, and it is mostly armed with short-ranged weapons, much like the Cicada.

It doesn't have to ride out several strikes to do that. It can pop up, mark, and vanish again.

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And to give another example, the Wolfhound is designed to be a fast brawler, not a pure scout. As was the Falcon Hawk, the Firebee, the Jenner, the Longshot, and the Venom.

And other light 'mechs are snipers, but this still means that they have to stay in the line of fire to fulfill their role even if it's at very long range. The Hollander and the Panther come to mind.

The Wolfhound was designed to be a brawler, yes, but not to take on heavies and assaults alone. Do you see the difference there?

The Hollander mounted a gauss rifle. Long range, longer than even LRMs, IIRC. No need to get into range of any other mech, no need to sit still and poke away with his gauss rifle. Fire a shot, vanish. Set up somewhere else, rinse and repeat.

I'll use tank warfare as an example. US WWII tank destroyers. Nice firepower, poor armour, good speed. They were designed to shoot and scoot, but many sadly ended up being used as tanks, which resulted in heavy losses. On the other hand, the Tiger was slow, heavy, and had a gun that would kill anything it hit. The Allies would throw large numbers of lighter tanks at Tigers, and suffer heavy losses in return for the Tiger. Said Tiger proved to be a nice target for air power (which we sadly won't have in this game), and their slow speed made them targets for artillery too. Not to mention the logistics of keeping it fueled and maintained.

Lights are like those tank destroyers. Used right, and in the way they were intended, they'd do marvelously. But to use them as fighters in the thick of the action is madness.

[Melissia]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

It doesn't have to ride out several strikes to do that. It can pop up, mark, and vanish again.

I'm glad you agree with me that it should not be one hit killed by a single alpha strike.

Glad you've changed your position.

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[Malkenson]

A light should not be able to weather the full hit of, lets say, an Awesome. It should behave as in the TT, in that it should fall down, take damage from falling, then struggle to get back on its feet and start moving. Perhaps also severely damaged and frantically trying to find a way out of there, away from that Awesome.

But my point is that in the TT, you roll 2D6 to determine things like "Did I Hit", "Where did I hit", "Am I still standing after that Alpha", and most important "Can I get up and out of here?" That makes hitting with all 3 PPC's one heck of a challenge, depending on far to many factors for me to list.

So, to balance this, making Armor more resilient in a video game makes sense.

A dumb light pilot should get hit and mauled by that Awesome, if its sitting still and its Pilot watching the virtual sun set.

But, if the player in the light knows what he is doing, different story.

This, of course does not even factor in that 1 on 1 fights should be the exception in MWO rather than the normal.
You should always bring friends...

*Have we even seen falling from damage in the game yet?*

[Kargush]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

I'm glad you agree with me that it should not be one hit killed by a single alpha strike.

Glad you've changed your position.

I haven't changed one bit. Though I can see why you were confused.

Hell, if the spotter does it right there won't even be return fire, making this whole thing a non-issue.

Edited by kargush, 11 May 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[Melissia]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

I haven't changed one bit. Though I can see why you were confused.

Ah, then you should have said "it's okay for a Raven to be killed instantly as it pops out for a second to try to lock on its NARC beacon", it would have been more accurate to the position you're trying to argue.

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Hell, if the spotter does it right there won't even be return fire, making this whole thing a non-issue.

You're assuming an incompetent enemy team who can't aim. I'm assuming a competent enemy team knows what it's doing and whose members are respectable marksmen. One can line up and fire a PPC shot faster than one can lock on with a missile, and with the speed at which the PPC travels you'd be lucky to dodge if the enemy knew how to lead his target (Which a competent marksmen would).

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[Kargush]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

Ah, then you should have said "it's okay for a Raven to be killed instantly as it pops out for a second to try to lock on its NARC beacon", it would have been more accurate to the position you're trying to argue.

I am arguing no such thing, and you know it. My position, once again, is that piloting a light should take a certain level of skill. From your reaction, you'd think I was some sort of horrible war criminal.

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You're assuming an incompetent enemy team who can't aim. I'm assuming a competent enemy team knows what it's doing and whose members are respectable marksmen. One can line up and fire a PPC shot faster than one can lock on with a missile, and with the speed at which the PPC travels you'd be lucky to dodge if the enemy knew how to lead his target (Which a competent marksmen would).

You're also assuming that said enemy team is covering all sectors, that they are not engaged by the enemy at this time, and that they have the time to turn and engage a Raven that is barely peeking over a rise in the terrain or between some buildings. You're also assuming that they know it's there.

I'm assuming that they might not know it's there. That the enemy might be engaging them, or at the very least giving them something else to shoot at as well. i'm assuming they haven't got a hive mind. i'm assuming a certain level of fog of war. I'm assuming that the Raven's ECM is actually active.

We're both making assumptions. Yours are entirely based on hyperbole.

[Melissia]

As an aside, the NARC beacon has the same range in this game as a medium laser. So popping out to fire it would leave the Raven pilot vulnerable to alpha strikes from more than just the Awesome, including laserboats.

[Kargush]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

As an aside, the NARC beacon has the same range in this game as a medium laser. So popping out to fire it would leave the Raven pilot vulnerable to alpha strikes from more than just the Awesome, including laserboats.

So tell me, why is the Raven smack dab in range of so many hostile, and not far out on a flank, or perhaps making his way to the rear of the enemy formation?

[Melissia]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

I am arguing no such thing, and you know it. My position, once again, is that piloting a light should take a certain level of skill.

I'm arguing that the scout should take skill as well. The difference is that I think it should take a good amount of skill to play, while you are arguing that the scout should take more skill than every other class combined and be punished for even the tiniest mistakes or just plain bad luck by being instantly destroyed rendering the class utterly unplayable.

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

You're also assuming that said enemy team is covering all sectors

Yes I am. Because to play a scout, one has to be properly paranoid. Why aren't you?

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

and that they have the time to turn and engage a Raven that is barely peeking over a rise in the terrain or between some buildings.

The enemy team will always have time to kill the scout that's allowing the your team to sit back behind buildings and hills and fire on you without you being able to fire back. Much like the medic in TF2, most teams will say "kill the scouts first" to prevent your team from having this advantage.

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

You're also assuming that they know it's there.

Because I'm a light 'mech player. If I assume they know I'm here, I can act intelligently for the sake of survival. And you seem to forget that the other team also has scouts.

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

So tell me, why is the Raven smack dab in range of so many hostile

Because the raven has to be to use its equipment and weapons. Although apparently according to you, light 'mechs shouldn't even have weapons.

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[Max Grayson]

first off you two should get a room

but more importantly, kargush is more right but Melissa is not wrong to a point.

a light should be able to take sum damage, but not a full on alpha, that being said to kargush's point, a scout light mech done right should never be in a position to get alphaed either with their speed or their hiding ability

Edited by Max Grayson, 11 May 2012 - 01:56 PM.

[Melissia]

Max Grayson, on 11 May 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

a light should be able to take sum damage, but not a full on alpha, that being said to kargush's point, a scout light mech done right should never be in a position to get alphaed either with there speed or their hiding ability

The speed and agility shown by light 'mechs in the gameplay videos thus far is nowhere near enough to avoid weapons fire.

Edited by Melissia, 11 May 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[Max Grayson]

HOWEVER I expect much carebear QQ from light mech drivers when it turns out that a medium performs better then a light does at scouting in actual game play.....yes this will happen start dealing with it now

Edited by Max Grayson, 11 May 2012 - 01:56 PM.

[Slyck]

Max Grayson, on 11 May 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

12 man lance

2-lights-maybe-Mediums may actually be better scouts depending on map, and electronics
2 to 4-mediums (maybe)
4 to 6-heavies
2 to 4 Assualts

I hope not. Mediums should be the bulk of any force, as they are the heaviest mechs that sould be economically viable to regularly field. A company like above shouldn't be able to make a profit.

I expect more like;

3 Lights
6 Mediums
2 Heavies
1 Assault

Edited by Slyck, 11 May 2012 - 01:57 PM.

[Max Grayson]

Slyck, on 11 May 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

I hope not. Mediums should be the bulk of any force, as they are the heaviest mechs that sould be economically viable to regularly field. A company like above shouldn't be able to make a profit.

I expect more like;

3 Lights
6 Mediums
2 Heavies
1 Assault

Trust me when i say I hope you are absolutley correct, but i fear i am more right in this case. As the game evolves or straight out of the gate depending on micro transactions and ingame money. Cost will not (but should) be the deciding factor as players either accumlate c-bills or buy c-bills with real money.

I hope i am wrong, and heavys and assualts only come out for very important battles because of maintence costs, as i would love to see mediums provide the bulk of the fights as i believe it to be a much better/funner weight class

and then the light mech would have less to QQ about

Edited by Max Grayson, 11 May 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[Gigaton]

kargush, on 11 May 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

I'll use tank warfare as an example. US WWII tank destroyers. Nice firepower, poor armour, good speed. They were designed to shoot and scoot, but many sadly ended up being used as tanks, which resulted in heavy losses.

Off topic, but what exactly do you mean by heavy losses? US TDs had good kill-to-loss ratios generally, at least one battallion was comparable to the best German Heavy Tank Battallions in that regard at 10:1. And they largely got these scores fighting against German armour (including Panthers and Tigers). AFV to AFV, they were some of the best things for fighting other AFVs with. A lot of their proficiency stemmed from the extensive anti-armour training of their crews of course.

Edited by Gigaton, 11 May 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[Moksha Raver]

I think most people (pilots?) are missing the point. If they are using TT values for damage and armo, then it's simply a matter of weighing armor values to weapon damage value. A standard Wasp WSP-1A has 6 points of CT armor and 6 points of internal. An alpha strike from a an Awsome (or similar mech) punches right through it! That being said, I remember it being fairly difficult to hit small mechs as they move pretty darn fast! I think for light mechs (and to some extent mediums) speed is your friend!

[Melissia]

That would make sense if hitting was a matter of random chance, but it is not.

[Kargush]

Melissia, on 11 May 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

I'm arguing that the scout should take skill as well. The difference is that I think it should take a good amount of skill to play, while you are arguing that the scout should take more skill than every other class combined and be punished for even the tiniest mistakes by being instantly destroyed.

No, I'm arguing that being stupid should get them destroyed. If they are hit. Unlike you I don't assume instant hits and magical targeting computers.

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Yes I am. Because to play a scout, one has to be properly paranoid. Why aren't you?

Who said I'm not? You're forgetting that just because you think they're out to get you, that doesn't actually mean that they are. One can take care without jumping at shadows.

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The enemy team will always have time to kill the scout that's allowing the your team to sit back behind buildings and hills and fire on you without you being able to fire back. Much like the medic in TF2, most teams will say "kill the scouts first" to prevent your team from having this advantage.

You're making another assumption, and that is compedative play.

And any team that consists entirely of missile boats deserves to have their scouts hunted down before being shot themselves.

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Because I'm a light 'mech player. If I assume they know I'm here, I can act intelligently for the sake of survival. And you seem to forget that the other team also has scouts.

Of course they have scouts. Which likely means that scouts will run into scouts, where they're on an even level, at least until you factor in pilots.

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Because the raven has to be to use its equipment and weapons.

So to use its ECM and fancy electronics, if has to actually be in the open, visible, and in the middle of the enemy lance?

Strange way to use a scout, that.

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Although apparently according to you, light 'mechs shouldn't even have weapons.

Strawman again. But nice try.

With combined armes, it might work like this: The scouts spot the enemy. Perhaps not literally, but Ravens have nice electronics, and so should see some radar returns. This is then made public knowledge to their team, as seen in the videos (notice how the Catapult fires on a mech their scouts have noticed). Perhaps they're even using TS to notify their team of specifics. When faced with opposition, they run instead of trying to stand up to a heavy (or even a tanking medium). Later on, when Hunchbacks, Katapults, Awesomes and Dragons are brawling like crazy, a Raven pops behind the lines, narcs a Catapult or two, and then starts popping shots into the rear whatever targets of opportunity show up. He's still in the game, still earning XP and still earning C-bills. And he's hardly been shot at.

The next day he's got a run of bad luck, and a lucky Dragon puts him down. Or maybe he runs into a pack of scouts, and discovers that he's outgunned and outnumbered. Shame he didn't bring any friends to that last one.

[Slyck]

Moksha Raver, on 11 May 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

I think most people (pilots?) are missing the point. If they are using TT values for damage and armo, then it's simply a matter of weighing armor values to weapon damage value. A standard Wasp WSP-1A has 6 points of CT armor and 6 points of internal. An alpha strike from a an Awsome (or similar mech) punches right through it! That being said, I remember it being fairly difficult to hit small mechs as they move pretty darn fast! I think for light mechs (and to some extent mediums) speed is your friend!

Convergence and DoT on may boatable weapons will distribute the damage. Don't expect (as in previous MW games) to be able to drop all the weapon damage from an alpha into the same location. You'll see on in the videos that at close ranges even slow mechs are capable of moving faster then the weapons firing on them can converge and the damage will get distributed.