31 replies to this topic

[Kay Wolf]

How are you going to handle, with a 1:1 time scale, DropShip travel from JumpShip to planet and planet to JumpShip, and JumpShip interstellar travel? I have some ideas for handling the travel times, but I'd like to know if you have a solution, first. If you don't have a solution, I will offer one in the Suggestions forum.

I am going under the assumption that, from the articles I've read, you're actually going to use the Inner Sphere map; If I'm wrong about this, please let me know?

Thank you.

[CoffiNail]

They would have rioters going to Vancouver if they put a different map in

But I have been wondering this too as most jumpship recharge time is at least a week., Dropship to planet can take a day or two.

[SteelSpectre]

I don't really see a need to faithfully represent the travel time from canon TableTop / novel lore. They can have 1:1 time and simply make travel take much less time. Sure, it isn't "realistic" (whatever that means in a game of giant mechs and interstellar travel), but sticking to lore in this case can do nothing good for the game or anyone's enjoyment of it.

[BowlofEggs]

For those that enjoy the lore, and like the idea of 1:1 time, the need to faithfully adapt the core elements of the setting is self-evident, is it not? That aside, the role of transit time has great strategic influence on how things play out on the ground and while retaining it as envisioned does not pander to the instant gratification drives of many gamers, or likely appeal to financiers and sponsors who will not grasp the concept behind "preventing people from playing," but it would add a unique and challenging aspect to the game which could enjance the benefits of game play for everyone, and attract and keep a new audience less prone to try this sort of game because of the shortcuts and alterations they tend to make to the setting elements.

[CobraFive]

No, I'm 100% sure you'll just be "jumping in" to battle. There won't be travel time. Especially considering the matches are centered around lance(s) vs lance(s), it'll almost certainly be using some type of automatch system.

Adding travel time would only break up and fracture the community, make it frustrating to play. You want players to be able to jump in and have fun, especially with a F2P game.

The 1:1 time scale is in reference to the timeline, introduction of 'mechs, news, storyline, and technology, etc. It doesn't mean your own pilot is in constant 1:1 time. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to do more then one match per day usually.

[SteelSpectre]

BowlofEggs, on 03 November 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

For those that enjoy the lore, and like the idea of 1:1 time, the need to faithfully adapt the core elements of the setting is self-evident, is it not?

Why they like the idea of faithfully adapting those elements is self-evident, yes. I didn't say I didn't understand the perspective at all, I just said that I didn't see the need for it from a gameplay perspective. I get the impression that some people advocate ideas like this on principle, and not because they genuinely think that it would enhance the enjoyment of the game. Personally, I think it would be a completely detrimental system to implement.

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while retaining it as envisioned does not pander to the instant gratification drives of many gamers, or likely appeal to financiers and sponsors who will not grasp the concept behind "preventing people from playing," but it would add a unique and challenging aspect to the game which could enjance the benefits of game play for everyone

I can't say I agree with that, especially. While I appreciate that some sort of tactical element exists, at some level anyway, I doubt very much that many people would find that it actually enhanced the game for them at all.

If I'm a newly minted Mech pilot who is excited to play the game and join the employ of my friend's Merc company, the idea that I have to log on, get on a ship, and then log off for 3 days, or a week, or two, and not play the game? That doesn't feel like strategy, it feels like arbitrary, ridiculous inconvenience. It kills enthusiasm -- it prevents people from getting involved in the game, and I fail to see how you can write off someone who doesn't like that idea as being someone who just wants instant gratification. Such a think would probably make a sizable chunk of the audience simply put the game down for good, or never buy it in the first place if they knew beforehand.

The strategy involved in taking account of travel times comes in at the high levels of command, as the leader of a very large merc group, or the general of an army, where the shifting of resources on a large scale is the name of the game. But this isn't a game about being a general, it is a game about being a single Mech pilot. In my opinion, the strategy in this game should come on the battlefield, not on the way to it.

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attract and keep a new audience less prone to try this sort of game because of the shortcuts and alterations they tend to make to the setting elements.

I honestly doubt there is a very big audience that fits that profile, frankly, and an even smaller one (do they exist at all?) that would have avoided it because they objected to the idea of not making travel times between systems take a literal week -- or even a day or two.

[Hans Von Lohman]

One thing about the space travel is that I bet we don't get to travel through non-inhabited systems. I think the game will have a star map with planets to fight over and actually conquer. Any other planet within the 30 light year jump limit of ships from your own planets are potential attack sites.

Hopefully there is sort of a mini-campaign of linked scenarios to take a planet over the course of a few days or the weekend. If your team wins, then your House gets the planet.

[FireBlood]

speaking of dropships, maybe something like the intro to merc's or how its played out in some missions. You leave your dropship with your lance and move on the battlefield toward your objective, when its over maybe a return (dust-off) Nav point would be at your lances dropship. or make it something that you have to protect on certain drops. If your team wants to bail on the mission you could return to your ship and leave the planet (penalties in payments of course for not completing the mission)

[Captain Hat]

Dude, the answer to this is pretty simple actually: Don't limit the players to being in a specific location. You can "represent" different units for your faction in different games- for example if FedCom is helping to defend a planet in the St Ives Compact and at the same time conducting an assault elsewhere in the Draconis March there's nothing to say you couldn't fight in both battles in the same evening, representing a different unit each time.

That way you can use real-time JumpShip movements etc and still have no breaks in the action for the players.

[John Clavell]

In NBT you must attack plants by sending your Jumpships to attack the enemies planets. The Jumpships only have so much range. A long distance jump can take a few days to even be able to launch an attack. Why is this important? For smaller units with only a few Jumpships it leads to low points, where you might have many days between any actual combat drops if your not managing your assets well.

I'm not really sure how things worked in MBPT. But in MekWars, your ships launch from your planets, and can only penetrate so far. You have to take enemy planets to go deeper. I'm going to suspect it will be somewhat like this. Actual Jumpship management might be taking things beyond the scope of this project. I think ultimately not everyone is willing to sit though that kinda of administration. People want instant action, not everyone, but I would surmise many do.

Dropships are another matter however. I started another topic a few days ago about the roll of the Dropship, as almost your Merc Corps Headquarters. Also as a limiting factor in the amount of Battlemechs, ammunition and supplies your forces can carry at anyone time. Making your choices more critical. Furthermore it might offer a currency sink for larger Dropship upgrades, allowing you to store more Battlemechs, and supplies. This would open another way for the company to make some money. Do you spend all your C-Bills upgrading to a better Dropship, or do you spend $10 on the upgrade ;-)

[Kay Wolf]

CoffiNail, on 03 November 2011 - 09:15 PM, said:

They would have rioters going to Vancouver if they put a different map in

But I have been wondering this too as most jumpship recharge time is at least a week., Dropship to planet can take a day or two.

DropShips require anywhere up to 21 days to get from their JumpShip to a planet, and jumps can take six, seven, eight weeks... I once had a contract that required 16 jumps just to get to the start point of the campaign; it almost wasn't worth the contract.

cobrafive, on 03 November 2011 - 10:27 PM, said:

No, I'm 100% sure you'll just be "jumping in" to battle. There won't be travel time. Especially considering the matches are centered around lance(s) vs lance(s), it'll almost certainly be using some type of automatch system.

Who said the matches are centered around lance vs. lance? From all I've read, the basic units in the game are lances, and then you form larger elements using the Merc Corps interface -I would assume that will be true for House units, as well- and, though the article I read did not explicitly say that larger elements from each side would share the same map, it was implicit.

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The 1:1 time scale is in reference to the timeline, introduction of 'mechs, news, storyline, and technology, etc. It doesn't mean your own pilot is in constant 1:1 time. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to do more then one match per day usually.

Well, see that's why I'm asking, though, because it's not implied either way. Also, where does it make sense to have everything BUT travel time on a 1:1 scale?

Captain Hat, on 04 November 2011 - 02:08 AM, said:

Dude, the answer to this is pretty simple actually: Don't limit the players to being in a specific location. You can "represent" different units for your faction in different games- for example if FedCom is helping to defend a planet in the St Ives Compact and at the same time conducting an assault elsewhere in the Draconis March there's nothing to say you couldn't fight in both battles in the same evening, representing a different unit each time.

That way you can use real-time JumpShip movements etc and still have no breaks in the action for the players.

Captain Hat, you ARE a genius, good sir. That's precisely what I was going to recommend to the devs, actually; I came up with that idea three or four years ago when I began designing the document for BT:O.

1) Players get their training completed, a contract or set of orders comes down, the player gets their 'Mech into the DropShip and then begins the next stage of the cycle,

2) A Player logs in and checks their own units daily requirements, first, perhaps some simulator training -the SAME combat interface as the normal one, but only with bots instead of people. Skill improvement comes much more slowly than on a 'real' battlefield -even if there are going to be PvE bots to fight on the 'real' field- and checks the block for their unit's practice. If it's not sim training, are there other things for the pilot to do to stay current with their unit?

3) Once done with that, if there's anything at all, the pilot then pushes a button on their monitor to drop into 'Ghost' mode. They can select from on-going fights that are going on which they see, they select a 'Mech on the field or that is yet to be deployed, which will set up automatically to match, as closely as possible, their own personal, re-adjusted cockpit, and hit the Launch button. They are immediately caught up to the 'Mechs assigned element and away they go. If they're getting into a 'Mech that is already in battle, the 'Mech becomes 'invisible' for a moment, perhaps even resetting to the edge of the battlefield, as defined by combatant element total size, and the pilot is launched into battle. Perhaps the 'Mech is even repaired to its original, pre-battle state for that day. The Ghost interface automatically takes out any opponents or immediate opponent allies against their 'home' unit from the interface either for current or pending operations as a play option, and away they go.

4) Once done with that fight, they simply drop back into the Ghost interface again, choose another fight, another 'Mech, and go play. Simple as that.

The con's are...

1) that they would be playing outside their own unit, most likely, for quite a bit of time,

2) they would still have to wait on the time to pass for their own unit until it was time to go to work,

3) they would not be using their own BattleMech in the game, but rather a PvE 'Mech, the AI of which is shoved aside to accommodate them

4) unless there was some manner of voice coordination with their team mates, and perhaps not even then, they might not be playing right beside their friends all the time.

The pro's are...
1) they would continue to be able to play unabated,

2) they would gain valuable insight into the strategy and tactics of both sides of the combats they get to jump into, in order to...
...... A) learn new and valuable tactical skills they would not pick up being stuck specifically to their own element, and

...... be able to make reports on tactical abilities, level of competence and leadership, cohesion, etc. to higher in their own unit

3) they would gain valuable insight into piloting non-role-specific 'Mechs, being allowed to grab whatever is available, albeit stuck within the TO&E of the unit they're borrowing the 'Mech from,

4) certain pilot-specific skills would continue to advance, and they might even gain new skills if gaining experience is not restricted to their specific role or the 'Mech(s) they drive

5) this would give the strategy mongers, tactics impaired, and paper pushers the time they need to ensure everything is straight for their unit before they go into a fight, and be able to requisition parts and supplies from the economy if they need them.

Now, I have an answer for Cons #2, above, about the time factor. There are going to be a LOT of factions in the game, so why not have a 2-part system, a calendar and a mission completion button, for setting up travel times (both interstellar and interplanetary; both automatically set based on the COs decided mission launch time) and battle schedules? Here's how it works...
1) every CO is responsible for setting their time-table on their own calendar. Once combat operations are complete for a certain fight, they check the battle as clear, and go to start unit repairs for the next fight or the next set of orders/contract. Units that are in transit, either form of travel, are considered to be battle-clear for this next part,

2) the moment everyone units calendar comes into battle-clear or in-transit status, the time-line automatically jumps to the next calendar date declared in the database, whether it's a few hours or several days. If the next event is a high-altitude drop into an LZ once DropShips get to a planet, then so be it. Do I think this will work all the time? No. Do I think it will work a lot better than even I'm giving it odds for? Yes.

This cuts the time for paper pushers and battle chiefs, and limits how many fights MechWarriors will get into while in-transit, but I think this would be the most realistic means of strategy development and execution without really holding the game up all that much. If we're going to have a 1:1 day ratio for everything, which I really love the idea of, we should make that 1:1 ratio, with potential time skips, work for everyone and all possible combat game scenarios.

By the way, that's what I was going to put in the dev suggestions forum, and still might.

[metro]

dang Commander, that is a mouthful. Yet all good points. I am hoping as you that the mechanics are much towards realistic parameters as possible, with the exception that it take 16 weeks to have a battle , Just a little more hyper in our hyperspace travels.


(on a side note Kay, do you have your PM's turned on?)

Edited by metro, 04 November 2011 - 07:31 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

A player has to Pick a House at game start. Guilds (Merc units) may be formed from inside the Houses. Load MWO, check the Mech Bay or Pilots Muster area, put a Lance (or 4) together, select a game type, Join the Matchmaking queue, Set Ready, and your off to where ever the Battle location is.

More complex stuff can be done but with no Modding come Launch, the engine in use will be the limiter to what can be done. Send your Jumpships, send your Dropships to Planet ZXY. when they arrive, call/text/yell into my headset, In the mean time I will be killing stuff over hear with the gals/lads and have no qualms about going and killing stuff over there.

[Havoc2]

IMO make the game and timeline 1:1 if that's the goal of the devs, but making COMBAT 1:1 would be a fool's errand.

Some of the battles for planets took YEARS to complete.

Let the leagues and ladders than will certainly follow the release worry about travel times (I too remember scheduling matches on a Monday night so that in 2 weeks we could fight for control of the planet and having to fight through 3 plants to get to our objective).

[metro]

it can be over complicated, very true. So a simplistic outlook, will keep those who want to fight in the cockpit, and those who like to plan , well...planning.

[Kay Wolf]

metro, on 04 November 2011 - 07:31 AM, said:

(on a side note Kay, do you have your PM's turned on?)

Yep, just answered yours.

MaddMaxx, on 04 November 2011 - 07:35 AM, said:

A player has to Pick a House at game start. Guilds (Merc units) may be formed from inside the Houses. Load MWO, check the Mech Bay or Pilots Muster area, put a Lance (or 4) together, select a game type, Join the Matchmaking queue, Set Ready, and your off to where ever the Battle location is.

More complex stuff can be done but with no Modding come Launch, the engine in use will be the limiter to what can be done. Send your Jumpships, send your Dropships to Planet ZXY. when they arrive, call/text/yell into my headset, In the mean time I will be killing stuff over hear with the gals/lads and have no qualms about going and killing stuff over there.

Now, isn't that what I just said, above?

[armitage]

My assumption is that there will be no travel time or limitations. It would be more simple to just have a star map, you select your contract or target, fight the battle, and are immediately returned to base. Much like MegaMek, planets would have percentages of occupation and fixed ranges for how far into enemy territory you can jump. Reach a certain percent ownerhsip of a planet and you can use it to jump further. As interesting as the jumpship/time traveled concept is, its probably more to deal with than A: most casual players will want to deal with, and B: much more involved for coding and database storage. I suspect that the timeline events will merely put focus on certain planets with boosted rewards. i,e. May 1st 3052 (2015) attacking or defending Tukayyid would net you double exp and cbills and maybe a special reward if you won so many battles during that day. This way the timeline is functional but you won't miss anything if you're on the opposite side of the galaxy

[Kay Wolf]

I would still like an answer from the devs about this. I agree that, most likely it will see no life in the game... (stretches neck back and forth)... I will do my best to live with that. I would still like to see something in the game about travel times and my ideas for how to handle in-transit periods.

[Venkman]

I for one would prefer not to have to wait 36 hours while my DropShip approaches the planet to play a game.

[Kay Wolf]

Okay, you guys really need to take time to read what I wrote. That's all I'm going to say about that.