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Bap Vs Ecm Discussion


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#1 Verminaard

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:56 PM

ECM's are wonderful, I love them in so many ways. They've added more depth to the game and it feels new again. Last week I was playing with the BAP to try it's uses, and it had some, very minor benefits. But this week... Well It's useless In my opinion.

If a mech has ECM the fact you have BAP is meaningless from my tests and games. Is there something the BAP does that the ECM will not nullify or cancel? I feel the BAP needs a buff, but I do not feel the ECM needs a nerf. The BAP's quicker lock on time and the ability to detect shutdown mechs seems... "Meh" at best. All maps we have allow cross map detection nearly, the BAP is not even noticeable there. And shutdown mechs have to be so close that it's also not noticeable i feel.

Am I overlooking something about the BAP, or is it regard by others outside my group as useless now also?

#2 Riven Cale

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:06 PM

I agree. The other electronic warfare items in game are pretty underwhelming compared with ECM. BAP IIRC was a counter to ECM in TT rules. I think BAP should work like ECM in it's counter mode only. Also Artemis shouldn't be negated by ECM. Locks are already hard enough to achieve, Artemis shouldn't be diminished on top of that.

#3 Verminaard

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:11 PM

That's what I thought also, I thought BAP was supposed to be powerful enough to somewhat see through, or at least overpower ECM's effect for your own mech. Maybe not cancel it and have radar work. But maybe allow yourself to at least lock onto them with missiles or something regularly.

I don't know what the answer is yet, but the BAP needs more active effects or at least the ability to not be negated by ECM so utterly.

#4 Mechsniper

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:15 PM

Agreed, BAP should be a counter in its own as well as artemis. Would balance things out and stop the ECM mech hordes.

#5 Belisarius1

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:51 PM

No, ECM countered BAP in TT. In fact, BAP was pretty crap in TT except in specific situations.

However, that's irrelevant at this point. ECM is off the charts. If it only had the cloak effect, it would have been extremely useful. As it has the cloak effect and a million other things and can only be countered by itself, it's no surprise that we're seeing nearly 100% ECM 'mechs right now.

BAP should definitely be able to see through it, and there should probably be a couple of other mechanisms added as well.

#6 Asmosis

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:36 PM

"counters" to things should be available to all mechs, like AMS.

Imagine if AMS shot down 80% of missiles regardless, but only 3 different mechs could use it?

#7 Aethon

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:08 AM

This is precisely my only gripe about ECM: there's no counter to it, except to bring ECM yourself...and it can only be mounted on a few specific variants, which is a complete 180 from all the old build rules (not that I'd want 8 people on each team all running ECM, mind you).

BAP, however, can still be mounted on any chassis; at the very least, it should counter the missile disruption functions of ECM (for the mech that carries BAP), thereby allowing streaks to continue functioning...perhaps with a longer initial lock-on time, or the requirement to re-lock after each salvo is fired (thereby preventing streakboat chain-firing, which is the main complaint leveled at streakboats).

Meh...I haven't had much time to test it first-hand, but the few missile launchers I *do* actually carry felt like wasted tonnage most of the time, when I was on earlier today.

Edited by Aethon, 05 December 2012 - 01:09 AM.


#8 Kobura

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:02 AM

ACTIVE PROBE
An active probe only aff ects game play if players are using
the Hidden Units rules from the Creating Scenarios section (see
p. 256). Otherwise, the active probe has no eff ect, though its
slot can soak up a critical hit (such a critical hit has no eff ect).
Under the Hidden Units rules, an active probe can detect any
hidden ’Mech, battle armor or vehicle (but not conventional
infantry), if at the end of a Ground Movement Phase the
concealed unit lies inside the probe’s range (see Weapons
and Equipment tables, p. 303) and line of sight would exist
between the unit carrying the probe and the hidden unit (if
that unit were not concealed).
Water: An active probe cannot detect units hidden underwater.


Hidden Units
At the start of the scenario, the defender may hide his
units on the map. The defending player must write down the
number of each hex in which a unit is hidden and designate
the unit’s facing, if it is prone and so on. Hidden units remain
hidden until they attack or move, or until an enemy unit
moves into their hex, attempts to move into their hex or ends
its movement adjacent to their hex.

So in TT, BAP is almost useless unless you're pulling in the enormously big-gun rules levels. They pumped it up HARD.
As for ECM:...


An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes that creates a
“bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities
aff ect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight
traced through the bubble. It has no eff ect on units friendly to the
unit carrying the ECM.

Within its effect radius, an ECM suite has the following effects
on the following systems. The ECM suite does not affect other
scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting
computers.
Active Probe: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area
of eff ect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed,
however.
Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the eff ects of Artemis IV fi re
control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fi red as
normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits
Table bonus.
Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an
attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that
system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM “bubble.” The
Narc launcher itself (standard and iNarc) is not affected by ECM.

C3 and C3i Computer: ECM has the eff ect of “cutting off ” any C3-
equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from
the network because it ventures inside the ECM radius, the entire
portion of the network below it is eff ectively shut off (all units
subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 132). Only those C3 units able
to draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass through the
ECM radius can access the network. If the master unit that connects
the lances of a company lies inside the ECM eff ect radius, the link
between the lances is lost, though each lance’s network functions
normally (unless the ECM also interferes with them individually).

I'm not drawing any conclusions here, but if you're going to be throwing around references to that which you do not know... get in the know, and fight smart.

#9 Elkarlo

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:10 AM

Kobura
And now look at the rules: indirect Fire of LRM is not nullified only the effectiveness of Artemis is reduced...

Also Streaks are not affected or LOS lock on Weapons...

Thats the Problem on ECM right now, it is buffed over TT rules, so BaP should be buffed also...

#10 Tice Daurus

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:52 AM

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1550112

#11 Herzog

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:58 AM

In TT BAP was the counter to ECM instead of being rendered completely useless by ECM.

#12 Verminaard

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:48 AM

I don't entirely agree with nerfing ECM from 75% to 25% as per Tice Daurus' post, but i do agree that ECM should be probably have its detectable range in the WIDE OPEN increased a little at least. Seeing enemies at 300m visually in the open and not being able to target is extremely annoying, even more so when you have BAP equipped.

#13 Ginga121

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:30 PM

To be honest I don't have an issue with the ECM's. I carry and ECM, Beagle and a Tag so I can both protect myself and team mates from locks and Tag the enemy ECM mechs.

A Tag counter the ECM completely as long as you are 185m or more away from the ECM mech. Then it's up to the LRM pilots to notice this fact and blow the living daylights out of it.

A lot of LRM pilots I've seen seem to be oblivious to when an ECM mech is Tagged.
A lot of ECM pilots NEVER seem to switch their ECM's to Counter mode.
Once a mech is countered the team needs to shoot them quickly. Unfortunately this doesn't always seem to happen either so it's the teams fault for the ECM's being a problem more often than they need to be.

The Beagle provides a longer spotting range. I know that if I see a mech and I can't lock it that it is under ECM cover. Simply team chat it... "2 mechs spotted, in ECM bubble". Then people know that there are enemy mechs with ECM's and to keep an eye out for people trying to sneak past them.

If you make Beagles counter ECM's then EVERYONE can counter an ECM and therefore it is an entirely pointless piece of equipment. You might as well cover your mech in Strawberry Jam in a hope that it conceals it better... That would save slots and weight too :P

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 02:34 PM.


#14 Pando

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:36 PM

It would be nice if BAP worked in MWO like it did in TT. I just wonder how it would effect the game.

#15 senaiboy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:41 PM

View PostGinga121, on 05 December 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

To be honest I don't have an issue with the ECM's. I carry and ECM, Beagle and a Tag so I can both protect myself and team mates from locks and Tag the enemy ECM mechs.

A Tag counter the ECM completely as long as you are 185m or more away from the ECM mech. Then it's up to the LRM pilots to notice this fact and blow the living daylights out of it.

A lot of LRM pilots I've seen seem to be oblivious to when an ECM mech is Tagged.
A lot of ECM pilots NEVER seem to switch their ECM's to Counter mode.
Once a mech is countered the team needs to shoot them quickly. Unfortunately this doesn't always seem to happen either so it's the teams fault for the ECM's being a problem more often than they need to be.

The Beagle provides a longer spotting range. I know that if I see a mech and I can't lock it that it is under ECM cover. Simply team chat it... "2 mechs spotted, in ECM bubble". Then people know that there are enemy mechs with ECM's and to keep an eye out for people trying to sneak past them.

If you make Beagles counter ECM's then EVERYONE can counter an ECM and therefore it is an entirely pointless piece of equipment. You might as well cover your mech in Strawberry Jam in a hope that it conceals it better... That would save slots and weight too :P

You forgot, BAP only works for your own mech, while ECM affects every enemy mech. You need your whole team to bring BAP to counter one ECM - that's not pointless is it? You could potentially waste 12 tons just to counter 1.5 ton.

Also, looking at the matches I have played so far, there's usually more than one ECM carrier. You can't pin one down and take it out when even the Atlas is carrying ECM, while the ECM commando take all your non-ECM light mechs out.

Edited by senaiboy, 05 December 2012 - 02:42 PM.


#16 Ginga121

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:09 PM

View Postsenaiboy, on 05 December 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

You forgot, BAP only works for your own mech, while ECM affects every enemy mech. You need your whole team to bring BAP to counter one ECM - that's not pointless is it? You could potentially waste 12 tons just to counter 1.5 ton.

Also, looking at the matches I have played so far, there's usually more than one ECM carrier. You can't pin one down and take it out when even the Atlas is carrying ECM, while the ECM commando take all your non-ECM light mechs out.



Yes, fair point, BAP does only works for your mech. But then what's the point in an ECM if a single mech 1000m away can counter you and LRM you anyway.
It could be 1 Catapult with a BAP that counters it, finds the ECM mech and blows it into next week. Then the ECM threat is gone and the ECM mech could do nothing about it. Then it's only 1 mech on a team to get rid of the ECM threat.
Might as well not bother using the ECM as you are going to get LRMed to kingdom come regardless ;)

If you are trying to take all the ECM's down at once then that is where you are going wrong. You focus on 1 ECM pilot at once.

A situation I have been in:
I have an ECM (Raven 3L) and the enemy has 2 ECM's (Commando + Atlas).
I counter one of the ECM's (Commando) with my ECM, drag it away from the other ECM and everyone nukes it leaving 1 ECM per side.
I switch to disrupt mode on to shield friendlies and TAG their ECM Atlas so it is open to LRM/Streak fire.
Nuke their last ECM mech and we have the upper hand again.

It's a simple case of ECM pilots using their common sense. Any Raven 3L pilot who isn't using an ECM and a TAG at the least should be shot.

It's not the teams job to counter the ECM. If you take an ECM yourself you should be willing to put your backside on the line to counter enemy ECM's for the benefit of your team. It's selfish playing that is causing the imbalance. Countering ECM's should be a combination of an ECM pilot putting his life on the line and his team backing him up so he survives it (Teamwork)

Or at least... That's how I see it ;)

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 03:11 PM.


#17 Verminaard

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:17 PM

well the BAP wouldn't "negate" ECM, but negate like 50%, it wouldn't cancel its range of radar detection, simply reduce it for the BAP equipped mech. Ex: ECM reduces radar to about 200m, a BAP mech would have its radar work upto 400m. Meaning it doesn't completely negate the ECM, but it is able to partly overcome its abilities due to its powerful BAP radar.

This is just an idea of course, but BAP should be made to have some effect and not just be utterly overpowered by ECM.

#18 Brothergrimm

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:18 PM

I like the increased tactics and brawling ECM has added so far, but it needs more interactions with other e-war gear.

By which I mean, especially with the planned 750m range on TAG laser, the intent is to have ECM as scissors, TAG as rock. The problem is everything else right now is just paper; or worse.
  • 360 Target retention module? Mostly negated by ECM.
  • Target information gathering speed module? Negated by ECM.
  • Beagle? Totally negated by ECM.
  • LRMs? Negated by ECM (unless combined with Tag).
  • NARC? Negated by ECM.
I may have forgotten things, but especially given the prized position and expense of modules, ECM seems to have a long checklist of things which it hard-counters, and a list of just two (ECM itself and TAG) which counter it.

It also seems ECM could endure some nerfs and still be plenty strong, so I propose some more interesting interactions with ECM and other gear that would make the game more interesting while better balancing the other equipment and modules vs ECM.

For example(s):

A beagle equipped mech can target enemies under ECM, but at reduced range, and with reduced targeting speed. They can still not relay this targeting information to allies if they are within the ECM disrupt bubble, themselves.

NARC allows hit targets to be targeted normally for the duration under a disrupt ECM bubble, but for a reduced duration or potency.

360 degree target retention could become 300 degree target retention under ECM.

Target information gathering speed module partially negates the ECM penalty.

As a side note, having ECM be its own counter (disrupt vs counter modes) seems to invite overuse. I'd like to see something like a Disrupt mode that works about like it currently does (but with the above suggested interactions diminishing its power a little) but instead of a "counter" mode a "project" mode, which would create false radar positives around the mech using it. This would enable an ECM mech to either cloak itself and allies or to create feints by misleading the other team about the location of the opposing force. This would prevent the arms race of "How to counter ECM? Bring more ECM!!", and would help emphasize Beagle use, visual scouting, etc.

#19 ManDaisy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:21 PM

Bap should only effect the single unit with it equipped as an ecm counter. Meaning, it acts as ecm counter for you only but not for the rest of your team, meaning you still cant share data but can at least target and lock as if countering ecm when in range.

Edited by ManDaisy, 05 December 2012 - 03:23 PM.


#20 kaeh

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:57 PM

I like ECM, seems that adds more complexity to the game, but speaking on myself:
The cloak effect is fine to me.
The delayed lock on is fine too.
The unability to lock... that's another thing.
I am playing right now with Jenners, and I'm really thinking of throwing them to garbage. Taking a light with anything not being a streak is really hard, and now, if you see a Raven or a Commando you only have 2 options, run or die. That counting that you can see them.
As a laserboat user, i'm not bad using them, but anyway its very hard to kill a light as game is right now. So, with the 7D I packed 2 ssrm and at least I could defend myself a bit. Right now is up to the enemy to kill you or let you live.
As the SSRM lock on is something not in TT, that the PGI guys brought up to the game, they might as well modify BAP mechanics to improve it a little, at least to let SSRMs get a lock, slower, but a lock.





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