45 replies to this topic

[Ginga121]

kaeh, on 05 December 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

I like ECM, seems that adds more complexity to the game, but speaking on myself:
The cloak effect is fine to me.
The delayed lock on is fine too.
The unability to lock... that's another thing.
I am playing right now with Jenners, and I'm really thinking of throwing them to garbage. Taking a light with anything not being a streak is really hard, and now, if you see a Raven or a Commando you only have 2 options, run or die. That counting that you can see them.
As a laserboat user, i'm not bad using them, but anyway its very hard to kill a light as game is right now. So, with the 7D I packed 2 ssrm and at least I could defend myself a bit. Right now is up to the enemy to kill you or let you live.
As the SSRM lock on is something not in TT, that the PGI guys brought up to the game, they might as well modify BAP mechanics to improve it a little, at least to let SSRMs get a lock, slower, but a lock.

I agree with some of your post and I can see the reasoning behind the parts I disagree with. However, these are my thoughts

There are 3 types of Raven... Only the 3L can take an ECM. That means there are 2 types of Raven that a Jenner can easily get the better of.

There are 4 types of Commando... Only a 2D can take an ECM. The means there are 3 types of commando that a Jenner can get the better of.

Not all Ravens/Commando's/Atlases have ECM's.

I am a Raven 3L pilot. I use an ECM and a TAG. I LOVE having a Jenner to back me up in a fight because I can concentrate more on countering the ECM while the Jenner focuses on damaging it. I am also slightly better armoured than most Jenners are so while the enemy Light is trying to shoot/lose me the Jenner is free to do as much damage as possible. If the light starts trying to streak the Jenner I just swap back to disrupt and block their lock on it until they focus on me again, OR they switch to counter my ECM which leaves them open to streak fire

If it's an atlas I will stay back, keep moving and tag it so people can still fire missiles at it. I can't do much damage from that distance but other people can do that for me.

You need to work together to counter an ECM. It's not a 1 man job. The main problem at the moment is that people want to be able to counter everything themselves and not have to work with people... Mechwarrior is a team game after all so it's hardly surprising that you need to work together sometimes.

I hope you see my points here and I haven't come across as though I'm trying to say you are wrong

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[Tikkamasala]

Verminaard, on 05 December 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

well the BAP wouldn't "negate" ECM, but negate like 50%, it wouldn't cancel its range of radar detection, simply reduce it for the BAP equipped mech. Ex: ECM reduces radar to about 200m, a BAP mech would have its radar work upto 400m. Meaning it doesn't completely negate the ECM, but it is able to partly overcome its abilities due to its powerful BAP radar.

If that would be the case every lrm or ssrm boat would equip a BAP and play like (ok, ranges are a bit different) before the gecm-patch. TAGing, direct fire and ecm usage should be enough of a counter to ecm.

[Ginga121]

Tikkamasala, on 05 December 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

If that would be the case every lrm or ssrm boat would equip a BAP and play like (ok, ranges are a bit different) before the gecm-patch. TAGing, direct fire and ecm usage should be enough of a counter to ecm.

+1 from me

[Asmosis]

The problem i have with BAP cancelling out ECM is that streakcats already run BAP by default (to shoot ppl who power down), and so should heavy lrm users. That would basically make ECM pointless.

I use a streakcat predominantly too so im more bias FOR them than against them. I have more tonnage than i know what to do with currently, so BAP and 2 tons of AMS ammo (case in both torsos) is making it up atm.

Edited by Asmosis, 05 December 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[FallenFactol]

As much as I love ECM, I do think Beagle should counteract it to a degree, but not totally.

[Asmosis]

If the bonus/penalty ranges were additive, that would be plenty.

I dont know the exact figures offhand, so dont spaz out on the example:

100% normal range
+ ( 15% sensor + 20% BAP - 75% ECM = -40% range)
end result 60% of max range, if your using both boosters.

Thats treating them additively, could also do it multiplcatively which would give you 34.5% max range instead of completely disregarding BAP and sensor boost (25% currently when all 3 active).

[Illydth]

Ginga121, on 05 December 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

To be honest I don't have an issue with the ECM's. I carry and ECM, Beagle and a Tag so I can both protect myself and team mates from locks and Tag the enemy ECM mechs.

A Tag counter the ECM completely as long as you are 185m or more away from the ECM mech. Then it's up to the LRM pilots to notice this fact and blow the living daylights out of it.

A lot of LRM pilots I've seen seem to be oblivious to when an ECM mech is Tagged.
A lot of ECM pilots NEVER seem to switch their ECM's to Counter mode.
Once a mech is countered the team needs to shoot them quickly. Unfortunately this doesn't always seem to happen either so it's the teams fault for the ECM's being a problem more often than they need to be.

The Beagle provides a longer spotting range. I know that if I see a mech and I can't lock it that it is under ECM cover. Simply team chat it... "2 mechs spotted, in ECM bubble". Then people know that there are enemy mechs with ECM's and to keep an eye out for people trying to sneak past them.

If you make Beagles counter ECM's then EVERYONE can counter an ECM and therefore it is an entirely pointless piece of equipment. You might as well cover your mech in Strawberry Jam in a hope that it conceals it better... That would save slots and weight too

Beagle shouldn't counter ECM. IT SHOULD reduce it's effectiveness.

The largest problem ECM vs. the rest is that it takes LRMs out of the game for all mechs under the ECM unbrella. Note the table top rules DO NOT reduce missile efficiency on ECM'd targets, only Artemus effects, nor do the table top rules HIDE MECHs which is exactly what is happening here in MWO...ECM is effectively turning mechs invisible which then disallows missile locks...which (again unlike tabletop) is the ONLY WAY LRMS WILL FIRE.

The problem with trying to re-produce table top in MWO is that there are special rules that make things work in MWO that are not in table top. Is there a rule in tabletop that you have to have a mech in line of sight for X turns before Streaks will fire against them? Or LRMS? Yet that's the rule in MWO...if you cannot target a mech you cannot fire on the mech which is NOT the intent of ECM.

We all know SSRMs don't need help. And surprisingly they didn't get hurt much with ECM in game...what did take a huge hit is LRMs, and frankly, I'm not sure that the hit is what the game called for. I wasn't sure LRM dominance was what was good for the game either, but we've gone from Dominance to Uselessness with one piece of equipment.

Allow beagle to double or triple the range at which a mech can be locked and targeted. Force "visible" / lock range for a mech OUTSIDE of Medium Laser / Streak range...so that to attack with a medium range weapon you can be at least locked and attacked.

ECM removing artimus benefits is an EXCELLENT change. Increasing the lock time, forcing a mech to remain target locked and under reticle for longer is a GREAT change.

Complete invisibility, inability to lock and inability to fire LRMs is TERRIBLE.

Couple this with lag shield for pretty much anything over 100KPH and lights are running the battlefield without much of a care in the world these days. They were already way powerful in a stand up fight...now you can't even LRM them down anymore.

Edited by Illydth, 05 December 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[Ginga121]

This happened twice today...

I am the only one on my team with an ECM.

1 enemy Atlas with ECM in the middle of it's team walking through the middle of the lake.
I tagged said Atlas from ~300m away which overrides ECM.
Friendlies couldn't get near the Atlas because of the team protecting it.
Tag allowed our 2 LRM catapults to lock on and tear the Atlas to bits.
Atlas WITH ECM died from just LRM missiles.

1 enemy Commando with ECM appears.
I switch to Counter mode on my ECM and get within 180m of the Commando.
Commado's ECM is overridden.
Enemy teams ECM 'bubble' is gone, they are all in the open and the Catapults start raining down LRM's.
2 friendly Jenners join me (without me asking, they saw the right moment) from cover and we take down the Commando.
My ECM goes back to Disrupt and we have the advantage again.

No BAP's or Sensor Boosters needed and the 2 LRM Catapults top the scoreboard. That 2 Enemy ECM's countered with 1 Tag and 1 ECM on 'counter mode' from 1 mech.

Common sense and teamwork... it works.

ps Both of these were Pug games.

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 05:19 PM.

[Illydth]

Let me get this straight...

You were able to get within 300m of an Atlas with ECM on him. Tag him for long enough for two lrm boats to lock him and fire missiles AND hit him (with more than one blast, an atlas doesn't go down to a single barrage of missile strikes) without him being able to move something like 150m or so to get you inside his ECM radius and nullify your tag. He also then didn't run for cover or have ANYONE around him to help, even though he had ECM running.

So, for your scenario to work

* You had to be able to stand up to the punnishment an Atlas was dishing out.
* The altas, with ECM was standing ALONE in the middle of a wide open area.
* He couldn't have moved or caught up with you to bring your TAG into uselessness.
* He didn't move for cover or power down to break lock.
* No one moved to help him.

Yea, because this sounds EXACTLY like a proper use of an ECM Atlas to me.

I appreciate you had a good game and example with a couple LRM boats in a pug, but what you're describing is pretty bad play on the part of the ECM Atlas.

And what group right now is carrying ONLY 2 ECM on their team? Last night when I was playing at least half or more mechs in every game I played was running ECM.

Hell, one match last night was 2 commandos and 6 atlases...all with ECM. Explain what an LRM boat does in THAT scenario?

I absolutely appreciate that your play and use of ECM was masterful, but had a second ECM mech been there or had ANYONE else been with that atlas your scenario would NOT have turned out that way.

Edited by Illydth, 05 December 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[CocoaJin]

It already feels that sensor locks and guided weapons are a bit too easy button as is. I like seeing something that brings a bit more manual skill back into combat.

[Stingz]

Illydth, on 05 December 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Complete invisibility, inability to lock and inability to fire LRMs is TERRIBLE.

LRMs can be fired without lock, just don't expect to hit very often.

[ManDaisy]

Bap should work like a single man's ecm, allowing lock on and targeting, but not information sharing to team mates.

[whiteknight]

Herzog, on 05 December 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

In TT BAP was the counter to ECM instead of being rendered completely useless by ECM.

Um.... no.... and if you can find a TT rulebook that says otherwise I'd love to see it

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Riven Cale, on 04 December 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

I agree. The other electronic warfare items in game are pretty underwhelming compared with ECM. BAP IIRC was a counter to ECM in TT rules. I think BAP should work like ECM in it's counter mode only. Also Artemis shouldn't be negated by ECM. Locks are already hard enough to achieve, Artemis shouldn't be diminished on top of that.

I agree, given that Artemis requires LOS to work anyway.

FallenFactol, on 05 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

As much as I love ECM, I do think Beagle should counteract it to a degree, but not totally.

I think Beagle should diminish the effect of ECM. i.e. from 25% to say 50%, so LRMs end up in a good place. And Woe to any team that doesn't field one of each in their line-ups.

[Tikkamasala]

Brown Hornet, on 05 December 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

I think Beagle should diminish the effect of ECM. i.e. from 25% to say 50%, so LRMs end up in a good place. And Woe to any team that doesn't field one of each in their line-ups.

No, it should not. It would make ecm "totally" useless again. Moreover the gameplay of guided missile boats wouldn't change at all compared to before the patch; BAP would be mandatory...

Edited by Tikkamasala, 06 December 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

I also think ECM has to be nerfed a lot, but hey, it is a dead horse already, no point in kicking it.
I will do something more positive: hope that they will make BAP and other electronic warfare modules usefull. Now they're just a waste of tons, even for Mechs they were designed for in the first place.

[Ginga121]

Illydth, on 05 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

So, for your scenario to work

* You had to be able to stand up to the punnishment an Atlas was dishing out.
* The altas, with ECM was standing ALONE in the middle of a wide open area.
* He couldn't have moved or caught up with you to bring your TAG into uselessness.
* He didn't move for cover or power down to break lock.
* No one moved to help him.

Right...

* My mech moves at 146.8 km/h. PRETTY sure an Atlas can't do that so yes I can EASILY keep more than 300m away from it... even walking backwards I'm faster than it
* The Atlas was trying to sneak his team through a lake... Not a lot of cover in the middle of a lake... Neither was it alone. It was with it's team. I thought "In the middle of it's team" gave that away.
* I can MOVE while tagging. It's not difficult. Atlases are pretty big targets
* I didn't say I was standing in right front of the Atlas OR being shot by it.
* Yes I was able to keep it locked long enough to have it LRMd down. Being hit with 2 LRM 20's and 2 LRM 15's all using Artemis with the TAG accuracy boost over and over will do that quick enough.
* The rest of my team were using AC's, lasers and other Dumbfire weapons on the other enemies so their attention was elsewhere.

Also.... Groups that only carry 2 ECM's? What part of PUG GAME did you not get? Last time I checked you don't coordinate with other pugs about loadouts before going into a random match, it's all down to chance who you play with. In most of the matches I've played I was the only ECM on my team. The most I've ever had on my team is 3 ECM's

I have been in Games where it is 2x ECM vs 4x ECM and still won because our ECM pilots were better and our other lights (Jenners etc) had tags.

Just because all the games you played had lots of ECM's doesn't mean they all do. I have played about 4 games out of 30 that have 6 or more ECM mechs in them. And what is stopping a Catapult or something carrying its own tag?

And as for 6 Atlases and 2 Commandos with ECM... Well honestly how often are you going to get ALL 8 enemy mechs using ECM's in a PUG match? The most I've seen is half and I played all day yesterday

Edited by Ginga121, 06 December 2012 - 04:35 AM.

[Asmosis]

ECM Atlas arent actually a problem compared to light scouts. You can take down an atlas with dumbfire weapons (lasers, ballistics, srms even unguided lrms) relatively easily.

Taking down scout mechs without ssrms and the current netcode is a whole other kettle of fish.

[Mordin Ashe]

Ginga121, on 06 December 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

Just because all the games you played had lots of ECM's doesn't mean they all do. I have played about 4 games out of 30 that have 6 or more ECM mechs in them.

That is a great proof ECM is utterly broken, because PGI made it so powerfull one simply has to buy one. Once everyone has to think about buying one, it becomes "mandatory" and is a game breaker. It doesn't matter if there are 3 ECMs in battle or 8, only 4 variants (not chassis, variants!) can mount them meaning they are OP.

[Ginga121]

That was chance though. It was a random pitch of players who happened to have ECM's.

In more than half of those 30 games I was the only ECM mech on my team which suggests that NOT everyone thinks they need one. Pug games seem more balanced about ECM's than Pre-Mades do.

That's why I prefer Pug games. It's a bunch of people in their favourite mech going out to have some fun and trying to win if they can. It's not about 8 people getting the best loadouts they can to stand the best chance of winning regardless if the game stops being fun in the process. Too much emphasis on the competiton and not enough on the fun... But that's just my opinion

Edited by Ginga121, 06 December 2012 - 04:29 AM.