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One Question/fallacy About Ecm


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#1 Skyfaller

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:14 PM

Why are the mechs inside an ECM bubble (friendly) not having their missile locks affected by their own ECM?

If this is an era where most technology is lost then the ECM should be a very rudimentary system that operated through brute force. To have a weapon locking system work through an active jamming umbrella requires very advanced electronics....which I doubt the BT universe would grant a mech armed with a standard missile system.

Please make ECM jam even friendly missile locks while inside the umbrella.

#2 Barg12

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:15 PM

Inb4 this was never an issue in TT.

#3 Veevslav

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:18 PM

ECM never worked like this in TT. *edit* (Never worked like this is refering to the current ECM system in MWO.)

"Game Rules
  • In Tournament-level gameplay, the use of an ECM suite is to nullify the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems. It can also cut a unit off from a C3 Network.
  • In Tactical Operations, additional uses for an ECM suite are shown as optional rules, including defeating other ECM and generating ghost targets."

Edited by Veevslav, 05 December 2012 - 01:14 PM.


#4 Skyfaller

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:32 PM

View PostVeevslav, on 04 December 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

ECM never worked like this in TT.

"Game Rules
  • In Tournament-level gameplay, the use of an ECM suite is to nullify the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems. It can also cut a unit off from a C3 Network.
  • In Tactical Operations, additional uses for an ECM suite are shown as optional rules, including defeating other ECM and generating ghost targets."


Nothing here states friendly units do not lose locking ability.

In Tournament-level gameplay, the use of an ECM suite is to nullify the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems. It can also cut a unit off from a C3 Network.

of other. Again, it doesn't state 'only of enemy' units.

This is an FPS as well not a TT. Right now we have SSRM and LRM units inside an ECM umbrella capable of getting missile locks.

#5 Veevslav

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:14 PM

View PostSkyfaller, on 04 December 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:


Nothing here states friendly units do not lose locking ability.

In Tournament-level gameplay, the use of an ECM suite is to nullify the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems. It can also cut a unit off from a C3 Network.

of other. Again, it doesn't state 'only of enemy' units.

This is an FPS as well not a TT. Right now we have SSRM and LRM units inside an ECM umbrella capable of getting missile locks.

Sorry let me further clarify my statement, in the rules ECM did not work like the current garbage implementation of it in MWO. I was siding with you against the guy that posted above me.

#6 stjobe

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:15 PM

Duh, we only jam the enemy's frequencies, of course!

Whaddaya mean they've switched to ours? They can't do that, is there no honour in 'mech warfare any longer?!?

#7 Prat

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:38 PM

I would like to see the trade-off. If I'm disrupting someone else, I or at least my team-mates should not be able to get missile lock.

We can argue all day long about what's right and what's not... but the way I see it is that if a friendly ECM shielded LRM boat can safely sit at 200+ meters and LRM the Enemy without having to worry about getting hit back then it's broken.

You can counter by saying: well the other team can have an ECM mech too. Sure, but now we've introduced MANDATORY Equipment and thereby MANDATORY Mechs. Until now, there was no mandatory Equipment. Gauss was great but not an "I win" button.

I've seen people say - "We've won against the other team with ECM while we had none". - and then they add "Because there were cocky".

My opinion is, that a same skilled team WITH ECM will ALWAYS beat a same skilled team without. What other weapon/module can you say that about?

#8 PhigNewtenz

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:06 PM

View PostSkyfaller, on 04 December 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

If this is an era where most technology is lost then the ECM should be a very rudimentary system that operated through brute force. To have a weapon locking system work through an active jamming umbrella requires very advanced electronics....which I doubt the BT universe would grant a mech armed with a standard missile system.


I'm not sure how you're conceptualizing a 'brute force' jamming 'umbrella'. Are you imagining a jamming system that radiates huge amounts of electromagnetic energy at all frequencies in all directions? Yes, that's simple to implement and might jam communications (if they weren't spread spectrum, which is easy to implement). No, that wouldn't work to prevent all targeting.

Specifically, it wouldn't prevent anyone from targeting you. You'd be lit up like a Christmas tree to any targeting system with even rudimentary RF sensors. Are you OK with it no longer protecting you from targeting locks?

Also, the only thing needed to operate a targeting radar when a friendly (or hostile) jamming system is active nearby is some sort of directional antenna. Point the antenna such that you aren't receiving energy from the direction of the person jamming, and you're all set. Thus, any sort of realistic 'brute force' jamming system would only protect people behind it. With an adaptive phased-array antenna you can notch out multiple emitters, even if they're moving around you. Back here in the real world we've had phased-array antennas since the early 1900's.

tl;dr version: No.

#9 Cryptogear

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:32 PM

View PostSkyfaller, on 04 December 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

Why are the mechs inside an ECM bubble (friendly) not having their missile locks affected by their own ECM?

If this is an era where most technology is lost then the ECM should be a very rudimentary system that operated through brute force. To have a weapon locking system work through an active jamming umbrella requires very advanced electronics....which I doubt the BT universe would grant a mech armed with a standard missile system.

Please make ECM jam even friendly missile locks while inside the umbrella.

Being someone who's job is Electronic Warfare (EW) I can tell you right now that not only is PhigNewtenz correct but IF you really want to make this argument I will argue why don't they implement ARH (Anti Radiation Homing) missiles? These are missile's which "SEEK OUT" a jamming signal and follow it to the source. Those have also been around forever.

The game is assuming that EVERYONE on your team has the electronics to nullify YOUR ECM. We wouldn't/DONT send out a fleet of ships with EW capabilities and tell them "IF ship A turns on their stuff the rest of you are **** outta luck".

The "advanced" electronic equipment your talking about.....isn't. I clearly cant get to in depth on here but you'd be surprised. Also, as for PRAT's "My opinion is, that a same skilled team WITH ECM will ALWAYS beat a same skilled team without. What other weapon/module can you say that about?" I'd say.... go up against a SAME SKILLED team with ballistics and lasers. YOUR ECM means nothing at that point.

Honestly, some of you people get way too hyped up on your high horse's. "Oh no, they have changed how I do things and now have to learn a new set of skills/adapt! That means this thing is WAY TOO OP OMGWTF!

In the REAL WORLD of EW that is what we do everyday. "Hey someone said they can do this, you guys need to figure out how to counter it." If we don't, people can/will die.

This is a game, if at anytime it gets too complicated for you, quit. I won't shed a tear, and I'm sure neither will the community as a whole.

Flame away.

#10 Prat

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:40 PM

View PostCryptogear, on 05 December 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

...


Gee golly, have you noticed this is a

View PostCryptogear, on 05 December 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Being someone who's job is Electronic Warfare (EW) I can tell you right now that not only is PhigNewtenz correct but IF you really want to make this argument I will argue why don't they implement ARH (Anti Radiation Homing) missiles? These are missile's which "SEEK OUT" a jamming signal and follow it to the source. Those have also been around forever.

The game is assuming that EVERYONE on your team has the electronics to nullify YOUR ECM. We wouldn't/DONT send out a fleet of ships with EW capabilities and tell them "IF ship A turns on their stuff the rest of you are **** outta luck".

The "advanced" electronic equipment your talking about.....isn't. I clearly cant get to in depth on here but you'd be surprised. Also, as for PRAT's "My opinion is, that a same skilled team WITH ECM will ALWAYS beat a same skilled team without. What other weapon/module can you say that about?" I'd say.... go up against a SAME SKILLED team with ballistics and lasers. YOUR ECM means nothing at that point.

Honestly, some of you people get way too hyped up on your high horse's. "Oh no, they have changed how I do things and now have to learn a new set of skills/adapt! That means this thing is WAY TOO OP OMGWTF!

In the REAL WORLD of EW that is what we do everyday. "Hey someone said they can do this, you guys need to figure out how to counter it." If we don't, people can/will die.

This is a game, if at anytime it gets too complicated for you, quit. I won't shed a tear, and I'm sure neither will the community as a whole.

Flame away.


LOL good counter with attitude rather than logic.

ECM still means something when one team can play "Sneak around the bushes" and the other still gets lit up at regular sensor range.

Either way, I like ECM, just wish it was watered down and not MANDATORY as it is in its current form.

#11 Jak Darren

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:47 PM

View PostPrat, on 05 December 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:


Gee golly, have you noticed this is a

LOL good counter with attitude rather than logic.

ECM still means something when one team can play "Sneak around the bushes" and the other still gets lit up at regular sensor range.

Either way, I like ECM, just wish it was watered down and not MANDATORY as it is in its current form.


Okay, knuckle-dragger.

As a member of the military Intelligence Community, everything Cryptogear has said is correct. He obviously works with REAL ECM/Jammers.

Your "LOL good counter with attitude rather than logic" proves you know nothing about ECM. Don't try to throw "logic" around if you have no idea how a system actually works.

You sad, small cretin.

#12 Cryptogear

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:59 PM

View PostPrat, on 05 December 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:


Gee golly, have you noticed this is a

LOL good counter with attitude rather than logic.

ECM still means something when one team can play "Sneak around the bushes" and the other still gets lit up at regular sensor range.

Either way, I like ECM, just wish it was watered down and not MANDATORY as it is in its current form.

My post was filled with both logic AND attitude.
ECM is in NO WAY mandatory! Like I said, use ballistics OR lasers. OR......wait for it.......mount a TAG!
This whole thing is one big game of Rock, Paper, Scissors and the argument is comparable to Paper saying Scissors are OP.
If you are unable to visualize that allow me to demonstrate: Missile<ECM<LOS weapons AND TAG. Not hard to fathom.
Not PGI's fault you cannot adapt. It is not going to cripple you to find the space required to mount a TAG system, I promise.

#13 Nathan Foxbane

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

View PostCryptogear, on 05 December 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Being someone who's job is Electronic Warfare (EW) I can tell you right now that not only is PhigNewtenz correct but IF you really want to make this argument I will argue why don't they implement ARH (Anti Radiation Homing) missiles? These are missile's which "SEEK OUT" a jamming signal and follow it to the source. Those have also been around forever.

The game is assuming that EVERYONE on your team has the electronics to nullify YOUR ECM. We wouldn't/DONT send out a fleet of ships with EW capabilities and tell them "IF ship A turns on their stuff the rest of you are **** outta luck".

I support your point with this happy little link.

@OP: Short version. It would be folly to use a system that hinders you as much as them. Defense planners everywhere laugh at such little forethought to something like ECM. And even if there was such a system, do you think any merc with a firing synapse would would deploy with, let alone want to be in the same unit as whomever had it?

#14 Skyfaller

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:51 PM

You two do realize that BT universe is pretty much 1960's (at best early 70's) tech level with fantasy lasers and ships and mechs tossed in right? You're comparing the modern very high tech based ECM to that. Back then 'ECM' was brute force jamming in comparison and the guidance/computer systems were very crude. THAT is what the BT universe and thus MWO mechs are equipped with.... with a little fantasy twist.

If its an ECM bubble (why I used the word umbrella) that disrupts other's ability to target them, then the non-ECM mechs inside said bubble should not be able to lock either. Their systems are just as scrambled since the ECM field is emitted from the ECM mech in all directions. Only the ECM equipped mech should be able to lock since only his systems are hardened and set up for EW.

#15 Cryptogear

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:18 PM

View PostSkyfaller, on 05 December 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

You two do realize that BT universe is pretty much 1960's (at best early 70's) tech level with fantasy lasers and ships and mechs tossed in right? You're comparing the modern very high tech based ECM to that. Back then 'ECM' was brute force jamming in comparison and the guidance/computer systems were very crude. THAT is what the BT universe and thus MWO mechs are equipped with.... with a little fantasy twist.

If its an ECM bubble (why I used the word umbrella) that disrupts other's ability to target them, then the non-ECM mechs inside said bubble should not be able to lock either. Their systems are just as scrambled since the ECM field is emitted from the ECM mech in all directions. Only the ECM equipped mech should be able to lock since only his systems are hardened and set up for EW.


Lets go back to the 1960's shall we? What was our EW technology then? Do YOU know? I do.
Let's even jump backward to the 1920's. World War's and what not. We still had EW technology then.
Going back to we'll say Vietnam, The reason the Viet khang were so good is because we went in there with big heads of technological superiority and they went LOW TECH! you can't counter something that doesn't exist! Go ahead, try to use ECM agains those assualt rifle rounds. Guarantee your gonna get shot. Try to intercept those enemy radio transmissions. Pretty hard to do when they use paper and walk it around from village to village.
LET US JUMP TO TODAY! Taliban are doing the same thing.

Again, THE TECHNOLOGY IS NOT AS ADVANCED AS YOU THINK YOU KNOW FOR PUTTING A LITTLE BOX INSIDE A BIG MACHINE TO MAKE IT COMPATIBLE WITH YOUR OTHER "BLUE FORCE" FRIENDS!

As a reminder I do this for a job. Don't try to out talk me on this subject. You won't win.

I agree with you on the "PGI is not using TT rules for it" 100%. But if you want to go there......ENGINES, DHS, ANYTHING/EVERYTHING ELSE!

Edited by Cryptogear, 05 December 2012 - 06:22 PM.


#16 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:33 PM

all i can say is the ecm itself isn't so terrible but it's functions are brainwashing players at an astonishing rate. very few missles are seen on the battlefield now cause we are stuck with the recomendation to go with lasers and ballistics. tactics are being crippled cause anything carrying missles has become such a risky liability. people have heve recomended that you should forget the lock on homing capability {the primary function for deploying such a weapon in the first place} and just fire them straight at 180M. that's the biggest joke ever and is telling me that a game with LONG RANGE MISSLES need to be used like SHORT RANGE CANNONS in order to be used effieciently. that say's broken game to me.

if we're going to talk about game play then the possibility of ecm deployement has scared many of the missle hard point mechs off the map cutting gameplay to a very sameme level. brawls are more common than ever now, i've walked lakeside on snow forest with impunity cause everyone gavered undercover with ecms for a brawl, i capped the base without any opposition, that's how broke the state of play is. no one really wants to rely on radar anymore which is sad for a game title that used to so heavily use it exclusively against other shooter games.

#17 Cryptogear

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:52 PM

View PostGalaxyBluestar, on 05 December 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

all i can say is the ecm itself isn't so terrible but it's functions are brainwashing players at an astonishing rate. very few missles are seen on the battlefield now cause we are stuck with the recomendation to go with lasers and ballistics. tactics are being crippled cause anything carrying missles has become such a risky liability. people have heve recomended that you should forget the lock on homing capability {the primary function for deploying such a weapon in the first place} and just fire them straight at 180M. that's the biggest joke ever and is telling me that a game with LONG RANGE MISSLES need to be used like SHORT RANGE CANNONS in order to be used effieciently. that say's broken game to me.

if we're going to talk about game play then the possibility of ecm deployement has scared many of the missle hard point mechs off the map cutting gameplay to a very sameme level. brawls are more common than ever now, i've walked lakeside on snow forest with impunity cause everyone gavered undercover with ecms for a brawl, i capped the base without any opposition, that's how broke the state of play is. no one really wants to rely on radar anymore which is sad for a game title that used to so heavily use it exclusively against other shooter games.

For your first point wait for Arrow IV to be implemented. THAT will be the OMGWTF THIS IS OP!!!! item for a LONG while.

For your second point. When they bring back knockdown that will take care of SOME of the current issues. I still boat in my CAT, but im not dumb enough to only carry LRM's so I still have a fully functional weapon loadout to brawl as well.

My personal opinion is, with the exception of double armor (because I understand the mind set of making the matches last a little longer), PGI should make EVERYTHING TT rules and see what happens. It would shut up ALOT of these people who say "YOU're NOT FOLLOWING TT RULES/CANON!" I think it would also be pretty interesting to see what kind of gameplay we get.

#18 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:48 PM

View PostCryptogear, on 05 December 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

For your first point wait for Arrow IV to be implemented. THAT will be the OMGWTF THIS IS OP!!!! item for a LONG while.

For your second point. When they bring back knockdown that will take care of SOME of the current issues. I still boat in my CAT, but im not dumb enough to only carry LRM's so I still have a fully functional weapon loadout to brawl as well.

My personal opinion is, with the exception of double armor (because I understand the mind set of making the matches last a little longer), PGI should make EVERYTHING TT rules and see what happens. It would shut up ALOT of these people who say "YOU're NOT FOLLOWING TT RULES/CANON!" I think it would also be pretty interesting to see what kind of gameplay we get.


the arrow iv would be even worse than the ecm for sure, it's like one huge missles that home's like an ssrm, i hated those in mech warrior 2 but it was balanced as it would almost fill up a heavy chassis to accomodate it. only a cataphract upwards could even dream of using one. the problem is that they didn't bring knockdown and leg take outs before this and people are exploiting it for a single mindset gameplay, i feel my erlasers are redundant cause of all the close quaters battles that erupt thanks to a whole team being able to flank without once registering on radar. i feel radar has so little purpose now, in MWO it would constantly flicker on and off and lock ons would be lucky to last 5 seconds. now i only find 1 or 2 moments of contact outside the 400m zone. so it's LOS brawler war from now on i can't rely on radar anymore which was the predominant way to play titles like mw2-3

oh and one other thing lights and mediums can easily out gun whatever back up systems you have so as soon as they close in on you 2-4 medium lasers or 12srm are nothing compared to 6 medium lasers and extra speed. though i must say lag has improved slightly, i can enjoy shooting lasers into jenners and commandows without so much teleporting and blury framerates!

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 05 December 2012 - 08:53 PM.


#19 Ricama

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:56 PM

View PostPrat, on 05 December 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

I would like to see the trade-off. If I'm disrupting someone else, I or at least my team-mates should not be able to get missile lock.

We can argue all day long about what's right and what's not... but the way I see it is that if a friendly ECM shielded LRM boat can safely sit at 200+ meters and LRM the Enemy without having to worry about getting hit back then it's broken.

You can counter by saying: well the other team can have an ECM mech too. Sure, but now we've introduced MANDATORY Equipment and thereby MANDATORY Mechs. Until now, there was no mandatory Equipment. Gauss was great but not an "I win" button.

I've seen people say - "We've won against the other team with ECM while we had none". - and then they add "Because there were cocky".

My opinion is, that a same skilled team WITH ECM will ALWAYS beat a same skilled team without. What other weapon/module can you say that about?


Well, there was that 2 day period when Artemus first came out ... but that was broken and OP. :)

#20 batesman

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:03 PM

Back in my day the mechs just lobbed large stones at one another.





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