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#1 Stargazer86

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:26 AM

There is a rather easy way to balance ECM, I feel. Split the ECM and ECCM abilities into different items so that a mech can equip one, but not both. Possibly even only in the head slot. If you want the ability to cloak your team and disrupt target locks, you give up the ability to counter the enemy doing the same. Then, simply make it so that the number of ECM doesn't matter. If 3, 4, or 40 ECM mechs are within range of a single ECCM mech, none of their abilities function.

This provides players with an important choice. They either choose to have key, offensive abilities that provide important benefits to their team. OR they choose to have a single, passive ability that negates those and brings everyone to status quo.

So, let's say team A has 3 ECM mechs, and team B has 1 ECCM mech. That 1 ECCM mech has some decisions to make. Does it rush out and scout, hoping to disrupt the enemy's cloak to see where they're coming from? Or does it stay back by its team, allowing them to actually target the enemy once they're seen? Likewise, the ECM mechs have choices to make. They know they're all being countered by a lone mech. Should they all try and kill it so that their ECM works unimpeded? Should they split up so that no matter what the ECCM mech does, their mechs either remain cloaked or sensor are disrupted?

Now, what about the opposite? If team A has 1 ECM mech and team B has 3 ECCM, isn't that unfair to the ECM mech? Possibly. What can be done? Well, remember, the ECCM mechs are providing no other advantage to their team other than countering that 1 ECM. It's a rather wasted bit of over-kill. If two of them were ECM mechs instead, they could be doing much more than just keeping a lone enemy mech at bay.

However, perhaps multiple ECCM mechs should actually be a disadvantage? Maybe they interfere with each other within a certain range? Or perhaps ECCM is limited to Ravens only? (Although I personally think all ECM should be limited to Ravens only, but that's just me. A DDC Atlas with this stuff is just ridiculous.) Maybe ECCM has a shorter range, meaning they have to stick closer to the ECM mech they are trying to jam? Perhaps ECCM generates more heat, or even interferes with the mech's own targeting as a sort of electronic feedback? Maybe it just simply takes up more space, is heavier, or uses up a weapon slot? There are plenty of ways to keep it fair between ECM and ECCM with a little thinking.

You can even go a bit further with all this and split the ECM abilities up into two separate modes. One allows for radar cloaking and the other allows for targeting disruption but not both at once. This way, more choices need to be made. They can't simply dive into a brawl and be both invisible to radar AND hard to hit. You're either hard to hit yet you and your team's position is visible, or your team is invisible on radar but can be targeted and locked onto.

Choices like these would add depths and decision making to the game. Right now, ECM just devolves into "Who has more?"

Now, what if no mech is carrying ECCM? Well, that likely means both sides have an ECM mech and are suffering equally from it. It again puts them on a level playing field. I doubt that, as it stands currently, there will be ECM mechs on one team but not the other. They provide too much of an important advantage not to take at least one. Light mechs, as well, will likely always be carrying ECM. This could prove problematic in the long run, and additional changes might need to be made. It really should be more of a choice rather than a requirement.

Edited by Stargazer86, 05 December 2012 - 10:32 AM.


#2 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:32 AM

I made this suggestion in one of the ECM threads. Good to see I am not alone. :)

#3 TruePoindexter

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:36 AM

I'm not sure what this would achieve. You can't disrupt the enemy and jam ECM at the same time - it's already one or the other. Really you would just be giving up the ability to do the other in which case ECM is universally superior to ECCM since ECCM only even has an effect when an ECM mech is around.

The mechanic is already fairly complex and game changing so I don't think additional complexity is a good solution.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 05 December 2012 - 10:37 AM.


#4 Felix

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:38 AM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 05 December 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm not sure what this would achieve. You can't disrupt the enemy and jam ECM at the same time - it's already one or the other. Really you would just be giving up the ability to do the other in which case ECM is universally superior to ECCM since ECCM only even has an effect when an ECM mech is around.

The mechanic is already fairly complex and game changing so I don't think additional complexity is a good solution.



Leave ECM on the mechs that have it, allow all mechs to mount ECCM

#5 TruePoindexter

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:39 AM

View PostFelix, on 05 December 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Leave ECM on the mechs that have it, allow all mechs to mount ECCM

So then ECM is a waste of time? The point of the tech is that it's rare but powerful and can only be countered by another ECM mech. Allowing all mechs to equip a counter will bring us back to the days when AMS was mandatory - just swap one two slot 1.5 ton tech for another.

#6 FactorlanP

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:43 AM

Honestly, I don't think the Developers should do anything to ECM yet.

I'm already seeing groups that are adapting to it.

I think the bigger problem is that everyone got used to the way that it was. They're having difficulty making the shift to the new paradigm.

There are some play styles that just don't work as well as they did before ECM.

I honestly don't think anything should be done to ECM until after knock downs have been brought back into the game. Wouldn't hurt to clean up the whole lag shield thing first too...

I also think that the upcoming buff to TAG range may go a long way to making LRMs viable again... At least for teams who actually know how to use TAG... You know... Like a team...

#7 Stargazer86

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:43 AM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 05 December 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm not sure what this would achieve. You can't disrupt the enemy and jam ECM at the same time - it's already one or the other. Really you would just be giving up the ability to do the other in which case ECM is universally superior to ECCM since ECCM only even has an effect when an ECM mech is around.

The mechanic is already fairly complex and game changing so I don't think additional complexity is a good solution.


But they can. You have the ability to do both with a simple little press of a button. An ECM mech should not be able to suddenly switch into counter mode and then swap right back. Make them make a REAL choice when outfitting their mech. Either offensive abilities or defensive ones.

And ECM being entirely superior? I don't think so. A single ECCM mech would be able to counter a whole team of ECM mechs. I think that, in of itself, would be enough incentive to take a chance on not having much of an effect if there are no ECM mechs on the enemy team. And really, do you think that's even an actual possibility? There will likely ALWAYS be an ECM mech unless the devs doing something to make them entirely useless.

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The point of the tech is that it's rare but powerful

Powerful, it is. Rare, it is not.

Factorian - I'd also like to see how things work when knockdowns are brought back into the game. It's already difficult enough to counter light mechs as it stands, but that would go a decent way into making ECM more bearable. Can't do that to a DDC Atlas, though. So that, in of itself, needs to be changed.

Edited by Stargazer86, 05 December 2012 - 10:47 AM.


#8 Felix

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:44 AM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 05 December 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

So then ECM is a waste of time? The point of the tech is that it's rare but powerful and can only be countered by another ECM mech. Allowing all mechs to equip a counter will bring us back to the days when AMS was mandatory - just swap one two slot 1.5 ton tech for another.


Rare? That **** isnt rare, sorry to tell ya.

But it would force the enemy to carry those extra modules if they wanted to punch through your jamming, so congrats, your one ECM forces a whole team to waste 12 tons and 16 crits with your 1.5 ton and 2 crits

#9 TwoFaced

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:45 AM

Great idea!

2 different items, 2 different weights, only 1 per mech.

I would like to see ecm only jam for the mech wearing it, not an aoe.

#10 Kilgore

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:45 AM

I think if a mech runs ECM, it shouldn't be able to run any other weapons. That's a trade off. The team has more tactical advantage but a DPS disadvantage.

Or, make the range of the ECM in counter mode much larger than the range of the ECM in Disrupt Mode.

Or, make ECM disrupt you and your teams ability to gain a target lock the same way it disrupts enemy mechs.

Or, make ECM only cover the mech that's actually running it.

#11 Kdogg788

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:48 AM

+1, and this should be the start. ECM should be an optional piece of gear, not a gamechanging, stealth masker of entire companies.

-k

#12 Kobold

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:53 AM

View PostFactorlanP, on 05 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

I also think that the upcoming buff to TAG range may go a long way to making LRMs viable again... At least for teams who actually know how to use TAG... You know... Like a team...


It just shows that they quickly realized that they broke LRM use completely with ECM, and now and looking for a way to un-break it, without actually fixing either the original problem (the perceived power/ease of use of LRMs/Streaks) or fixing their first fix (the massive power of ECM).

#13 ElcomeSoft

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:04 AM

If you make ECM do the Disrupt job and ECCM do the Counter job.

Allow all current variants which can equip ECM able to equip ECCM. Make them require a specific hardpoint or limit it to the Head only which means you have Disruptive or Countering abilities.

Just putting this out there after reading the thread. I dislike what ECM has done to the game so far and I'd prefer to try and remain neutral and openminded in forum discussions (whilst my friends hear me rant about "that ****ing ECM!!!")

#14 Kdogg788

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:14 AM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 05 December 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

So then ECM is a waste of time? The point of the tech is that it's rare but powerful and can only be countered by another ECM mech. Allowing all mechs to equip a counter will bring us back to the days when AMS was mandatory - just swap one two slot 1.5 ton tech for another.


Actually ECM IS mandatory. Equip them on your team or handicap yourself right from the start. For builds that use ECM well, exploit them NOW. It was great to level up my A1 right after the Artemis introduction. Using ECM to cloak now is as powerful as using Artemis to just melt armor off mechs when that patch hit. ECM is even useful in pug games to give your team an advantage.

-k

#15 TruePoindexter

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:19 AM

View PostStargazer86, on 05 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

But they can. You have the ability to do both with a simple little press of a button. An ECM mech should not be able to suddenly switch into counter mode and then swap right back. Make them make a REAL choice when outfitting their mech. Either offensive abilities or defensive ones.

You cannot do both simultaneously. You cannot both jam enemy mechs AND jam enemy ECM. It's one or the other. I have to make a choice when dueling an enemy ECM mech to JAM their ECM but give away my position or keep ECM on but be unable to relay targeting to my team.

View PostStargazer86, on 05 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

And ECM being entirely superior? I don't think so. A single ECCM mech would be able to counter a whole team of ECM mechs. I think that, in of itself, would be enough incentive to take a chance on not having much of an effect if there are no ECM mechs on the enemy team. And really, do you think that's even an actual possibility? There will likely ALWAYS be an ECM mech unless the devs doing something to make them entirely useless.

No. With the proposal almost every single mech will run ECCM just like AMS. It becomes this thing you throw onto your mech instinctively. You then have to propose complex solutions to that problem which just exacerbate the issue entirely because otherwise ECM becomes a waste of time.

View PostStargazer86, on 05 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Powerful, it is. Rare, it is not.


View PostFelix, on 05 December 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:


Rare? That **** isnt rare, sorry to tell ya.

But it would force the enemy to carry those extra modules if they wanted to punch through your jamming, so congrats, your one ECM forces a whole team to waste 12 tons and 16 crits with your 1.5 ton and 2 crits

There are exactly 4 variants that can mount ECM out of 43 variants. That would be rare. Those 4 variants are popping up a lot now because it's the new FOTM like how YLW's were everywhere when it was first released and for awhile MWO became Cataphract online after its release.

Also kill the condescending tone. Why does every single MWO discussion have to be rude?

#16 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:20 AM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 05 December 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm not sure what this would achieve. You can't disrupt the enemy and jam ECM at the same time - it's already one or the other. Really you would just be giving up the ability to do the other in which case ECM is universally superior to ECCM since ECCM only even has an effect when an ECM mech is around.

The mechanic is already fairly complex and game changing so I don't think additional complexity is a good solution.

Although true. i could put an ECCM in my Atlas which would only be useful v an ECM and nothing else. Yet that one function is quite useful in combat.

#17 TruePoindexter

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:25 AM

View PostKdogg788, on 05 December 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:


Actually ECM IS mandatory. Equip them on your team or handicap yourself right from the start. For builds that use ECM well, exploit them NOW. It was great to level up my A1 right after the Artemis introduction. Using ECM to cloak now is as powerful as using Artemis to just melt armor off mechs when that patch hit. ECM is even useful in pug games to give your team an advantage.

-k

First read the post I was responding to then mine. In the context of the proposed solution ECM becomes irrelevant.

As for right now this is definitely an issue. ECM must exist on your team to some degree if for no other reason than countering jamming for your team.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 05 December 2012 - 11:29 AM.


#18 Stargazer86

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:35 AM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 05 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

You cannot do both simultaneously. You cannot both jam enemy mechs AND jam enemy ECM. It's one or the other. I have to make a choice when dueling an enemy ECM mech to JAM their ECM but give away my position or keep ECM on but be unable to relay targeting to my team.


But it's not a REAL choice. Yes, you can't do both at the same time, but you can still do both. If you understand what I'm saying? It's currently far too easy for an ECM mech to meet the current needs of the battle. If you split ECM and ECCM into to different items rather than just a toggle, you're forcing them to make an actual decision about how to build their mech rather than just making them press a button during a fight.

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No. With the proposal almost every single mech will run ECCM just like AMS. It becomes this thing you throw onto your mech instinctively. You then have to propose complex solutions to that problem which just exacerbate the issue entirely because otherwise ECM becomes a waste of time.


If ECM and ECCM are split, then there's a choice to be made. It's not something that you just toss onto your mech like AMS because of that choice. You're making a decision between either carrying nothing, ECCM, or ECM. If you choose to carry neither, you have the additional benefit of more tonnage you can put towards weapons and armor. If you pick ECCM, you lose all the benefits and abilities that ECM provides. If you choose ECM, you're unable to counter enemy ECM but provide your team with a possible advantage. This is entirely unlike the AMS which, indeed, is just something additional you add when you have a few extra tons to spare because, hey, why not?

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There are exactly 4 variants that can mount ECM out of 43 variants. That would be rare. Those 4 variants are popping up a lot now because it's the new FOTM like how YLW's were everywhere when it was first released and for awhile MWO became Cataphract online after its release.

Also kill the condescending tone. Why does every single MWO discussion have to be rude?


There are 4 variants that everyone is running. This makes ECM quite common. And adding a new feature such as ECM does not equate to adding a new mech. In the latter, everyone wants to try out the new mech because it's new and shiny. Eventually, people will figure out whether they like it or not, and the number will slowly decline until it achieves some semblance of normalcy. In the former, everyone realizes that ECM changes the game significantly and that it's currently detrimental not to be running it. They will continue to run it until changes are made, much like how everyone was using Artemis until the bug was fixed.

#19 Seanamal

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:35 AM

Frankly I love ECM and the way it works. It opens a whole new dynamic to how the game works. The E-warfare raven suddenly becomes a really interesting multi-role combatant. Properly configured and equipped it changes from a poor cousin of the jenner into a very dangerous scout hunter / intel gatherer. The Atlas DC now feels like the command mech it's supposed to be. The commando 2d becomes a terrifying pack hunter. Yes it neutralizes the LRM barrage tactic, however if somone uses tag effectively it brings the strategy back. The only real victim is the streak boat, which can still tag the target first THEN fire it's streaks. I've done some extensive play with the Atlas DC and some with the raven. My analysis is it gives a wonderful new level of complexity to the game. Those who hate it just need to learn to adapt.

#20 Stargazer86

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:43 AM

View PostSeanamal, on 05 December 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Frankly I love ECM and the way it works. It opens a whole new dynamic to how the game works. The E-warfare raven suddenly becomes a really interesting multi-role combatant. Properly configured and equipped it changes from a poor cousin of the jenner into a very dangerous scout hunter / intel gatherer. The Atlas DC now feels like the command mech it's supposed to be. The commando 2d becomes a terrifying pack hunter. Yes it neutralizes the LRM barrage tactic, however if somone uses tag effectively it brings the strategy back. The only real victim is the streak boat, which can still tag the target first THEN fire it's streaks. I've done some extensive play with the Atlas DC and some with the raven. My analysis is it gives a wonderful new level of complexity to the game. Those who hate it just need to learn to adapt.


And this is certainly debatable. Some believe that it adds complexity. Some believe it turns the game into a giant invisible brawl. One might argue that "Whoever has more ECM mechs wins" isn't all that complex. Whatever the case, ECM changes the game quite a bit.

My proposed changes keep all the abilities as they currently are. Radar can still be jammed, target locking can be disrupted, it's more difficult to gather sensors info and ect. That complexity is still there. However, the ECM mechs are now forced to make actual decisions themselves rather than simply dart about providing all these bonuses at all times as long as one team has more. It adds better complexity. ECM mechs would now have to choose between cloaking their team or disrupting the enemy. Light mechs would have to choose whether to carry ECCM or ECM instead of being able to do both. There's now some additional strategy to it all.





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