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#21 TruePoindexter

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:56 AM

View PostStargazer86, on 05 December 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

But it's not a REAL choice. Yes, you can't do both at the same time, but you can still do both. If you understand what I'm saying? It's currently far too easy for an ECM mech to meet the current needs of the battle. If you split ECM and ECCM into to different items rather than just a toggle, you're forcing them to make an actual decision about how to build their mech rather than just making them press a button during a fight.

As I said in that case I would always equip ECM since it is viable more often than ECCM. You would just be eliminating ECCM. ECCM is only useful when ECM is on the field. ECM is always useful even when you yourself are being jammed.

Right now it is a tactical decision to switch which is an interesting gameplay choice. I gave an example about this but to reiterate you get into situations where you can counter enemy ECM but in doing so give away your positioning and open yourself up to enemy missile fire. Conversely you can maintain your own jamming but then cannot share targeting information with your team and in turn cannot receive missile support.

View PostStargazer86, on 05 December 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

If ECM and ECCM are split, then there's a choice to be made. It's not something that you just toss onto your mech like AMS because of that choice. You're making a decision between either carrying nothing, ECCM, or ECM. If you choose to carry neither, you have the additional benefit of more tonnage you can put towards weapons and armor. If you pick ECCM, you lose all the benefits and abilities that ECM provides. If you choose ECM, you're unable to counter enemy ECM but provide your team with a possible advantage. This is entirely unlike the AMS which, indeed, is just something additional you add when you have a few extra tons to spare because, hey, why not?


I keep saying this - given the choice between ECM and ECCM you will only select ECM since it is useful more often than ECCM. If we do as Fleix suggests and allow ECCM on all mechs then ECM becomes almost irrelevant as ECCM gets equipped often on mechs like AMS.

View PostStargazer86, on 05 December 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

There are 4 variants that everyone is running. This makes ECM quite common. And adding a new feature such as ECM does not equate to adding a new mech. In the latter, everyone wants to try out the new mech because it's new and shiny. Eventually, people will figure out whether they like it or not, and the number will slowly decline until it achieves some semblance of normalcy. In the former, everyone realizes that ECM changes the game significantly and that it's currently detrimental not to be running it. They will continue to run it until changes are made, much like how everyone was using Artemis until the bug was fixed.


It's called flavor of the month for a reason. A lot of people are trying out ECM to see how it works and many of them are leveling a Commando/Raven/Cicada for the first time. Just like all the new releases before lots of people will run it and it will eventually die down. I will say that ECM's power is skewing this and we will likely continue to see every match have at least one Commando/Raven/Cicada but will become less likely to run into games like I did last night where there were 4 Ravens on one team.

#22 Stargazer86

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:28 PM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 05 December 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

As I said in that case I would always equip ECM since it is viable more often than ECCM. You would just be eliminating ECCM. ECCM is only useful when ECM is on the field. ECM is always useful even when you yourself are being jammed.

Right now it is a tactical decision to switch which is an interesting gameplay choice. I gave an example about this but to reiterate you get into situations where you can counter enemy ECM but in doing so give away your positioning and open yourself up to enemy missile fire. Conversely you can maintain your own jamming but then cannot share targeting information with your team and in turn cannot receive missile support.


TAG, NARC, and AMS were only useful when LRM's were out on the field, but people still ran those. And I would always equip ECCM because I know people will always equip ECM, just as you pointed out. How can you say that ECCM would be useless if there's no ECM, so everyone would take ECM? =P

And my changes offer the same exact gameplay choice. You either provide ECM support, or you counter it. However, instead of immediately switching in the midst of combat, it's instead a long-term choice you make when building your mech. The difference here is between short-term and long-term choice. It's my belief that a long-term choice would have more of a strategic impact upon the game. Rather than allowing players to make that choice in the midst of a fight, they have to plan ahead.

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I keep saying this - given the choice between ECM and ECCM you will only select ECM since it is useful more often than ECCM. If we do as Fleix suggests and allow ECCM on all mechs then ECM becomes almost irrelevant as ECCM gets equipped often on mechs like AMS.


And if they only select ECM, it provides plenty of targets for ECCM, meaning it's very useful. There's a bit of a logical loop going on here.

And I certainly don't believe ECCM should be on all mechs. Both ECM and ECCM should be relegated to the current variants of light mechs that already have them, if not just the Raven alone, though that's debatable. The DDC Atlas should just be right out.

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It's called flavor of the month for a reason. A lot of people are trying out ECM to see how it works and many of them are leveling a Commando/Raven/Cicada for the first time. Just like all the new releases before lots of people will run it and it will eventually die down. I will say that ECM's power is skewing this and we will likely continue to see every match have at least one Commando/Raven/Cicada but will become less likely to run into games like I did last night where there were 4 Ravens on one team.


This is part of the reason, sure. Not everyone likes to pilot light mechs or DDC's, so the numbers will decrease a bit over time. I don't think they'll decrease as much as FoTM mechs, though. ECM is currently too important not to have and is absolutely essential for your team. There will never be an 8-man without ECM, for example. Even in PUGs you'll likely always have a couple, as long as anyone is running a light mech. And as long as DDC's hare capable of carrying them, you're going to see quite a few Steiner scout lances in pre-mades which is just plain ridiculous. Its power-level needs to be adjusted in some manner, and I'm not an advocate of just straight nerfs. I think my changes offer a better solution, which is to keep the ECM functions as they are, but split them apart.

#23 Seanamal

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:06 PM

The only thing that needs to be adjusted about ECM is it shouldn't block NARC. NARC is already weak enough, disabling it with ECM just makes it more so. Right now there are counter strategies to dealing with ECM. For example you can TAG a target inside an ECM bubble so it can be targeted with LRMs and streaks. You can counter jam. This whole idea of ECCM should trump ECM always is absurd. ECM provides the needed counter to the streak cat build, the lrm barrage and spotter team, and a few other absurdities of the game. Now maybe at some point in the future for those who truly hate ECM PGI can implement a restricted tech match. But as far as I'm concerned ECM nicely fills a hole in the game play. Look as an Atlas driver if I had an MC for each time I've been gutted by a streak cat I could afford another atlas K. ECM makes that a whole lot harder to do now.

#24 Stargazer86

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:42 PM

View PostSeanamal, on 05 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

The only thing that needs to be adjusted about ECM is it shouldn't block NARC. NARC is already weak enough, disabling it with ECM just makes it more so. Right now there are counter strategies to dealing with ECM. For example you can TAG a target inside an ECM bubble so it can be targeted with LRMs and streaks. You can counter jam. This whole idea of ECCM should trump ECM always is absurd. ECM provides the needed counter to the streak cat build, the lrm barrage and spotter team, and a few other absurdities of the game. Now maybe at some point in the future for those who truly hate ECM PGI can implement a restricted tech match. But as far as I'm concerned ECM nicely fills a hole in the game play. Look as an Atlas driver if I had an MC for each time I've been gutted by a streak cat I could afford another atlas K. ECM makes that a whole lot harder to do now.


So the solution to streak cats is to neuter streaks for all mechs? Because I believe the A1 Streak Cat build was the only one that people were consistently complaining about. How about the HBK-4SP with two streaks? Or the Commando with three? It hurts them just as much. And LRMs, before the patch, were perfectly fine. They were at a nice balance where they weren't killing mechs by themselves yet were providing effective supporting fire as long as your team had decent scouts. ECM doesn't fill a hole in gameplay, it completely negates an entire playstyle. Adding in an element that effects ALL builds just to make one build less viable does not make for a good design decision.

So, there are only two current solutions to ECM? TAG and...more ECM? Tagging helps, but it's by no means a counter. And my proposed changes still allow counter-jamming, but force players to make a choice. They can either counter enemy ECM or they can provide their own ECM, but not both.

As a medium driver, I hate Streakapults just as much as you, maybe even more so. But that doesn't mean I think ECM is in a good state of balance right now, not by a long shot. The fact that "More ECM's trumps less ECM's" is, in of itself, absurd. ECCM would provide an effective counter while still allowing for strategic and tactical choices to be made that have a direct impact upon gameplay. Right now, it's "More ECM wins". Not all that tactical.

#25 Irreverence

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:29 PM

Wait a few weeks, then come back and evaluate ECM.

#26 Polojilarious

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

I have to disagree with the OP on this.

Before anything else, I've pretty much only played games on my ECM cada since the patch, so that might be colouring my opinion (as I've never been on a team with no ECM).

Fairly frequently, I'll run into a match that has only one ECM per team. Which means, in a major fight, either both of our teams will be cloaked and disrupted, or one ECM will jam the other and the fight will play out normally. Running into a fight, I really have to consider what both teams are equipped with, and try to figure out if my team would benefit more from the cloaking, or from easy lock-ons. This is especially hard, as I cannot see the loadouts of either team (due to cloaking for enemies, and bad game design for allies), so I have to guess based on mech variants and positioning. It's complex, and it's fun.

Another situation I run into frequently is where I am the only ecm on my team against two on the other. I'm in disrupt mode to keep my team cloaked up until proper fighting breaks out. Everybody runs around a bit, eventually the two teams get into a skirmish. My ECM is, almost invariably, jammed. So I switch to jamming mode. Now, one of the enemy ECMs is jamming nothing, and one is in disrupt, but is being jammed by me. Which is to say, nobody is actually being affected by ECM, despite three of them being in play. And unless the enemy jammer is watching me like a hawk, they won't know that I've switched out of disrupt mode, so they'll never stop trying to jam me.

And it only gets more fun and interesting with 2 ECM vs 2 ECM.

And all of it is happening in the middle of a firefight, while I'm running around trying to avoid getting wrecked and find engaged enemies to shoot in the back.

Basically, being able to switch ecm modes adds this whole other level of complexity and thinking to fights, and everybody has to be conscious of where allied and enemy ECM is, what mode each ECM is in, and how those modes affect you. I love it.

Making them separate components would only serve dumb down actual gameplay, as there would be no ingame choices to make about ECM. You'd just be stuck with either disrupt or jam, and be unable to do anything about it. It would heavily favour premade teams that could co-ordinate ECM and ECCM over PUGs.

And speaking of PUGs, I've found that ECM has only made PUGs better. I mean, you still get idiots that run off to die alone, but the benefits of ECM cloaking are enough to keep most players grouped up and focused on an area.

Sure, it's a little annoying when there's a conga line of phracts following me around, hiding behind me and expecting me (in my cicada) to take the first hits and lead the charge into battle, but at least everybody is willing to stay sort of grouped up under the protective cloak of ECM.

TAG is now great and horrifying. That little red laser heralds death and destruction when you have a group of guys in bad/no cover, expecting that ECM will protect you from long range weapons.

NARC could use a buff. As much as I hate the cat variant with 6 missile slots, It should still be a viable thing.

The beagle could probably have a buff. It wasn't that great before ECM, and now it's fairly useless. I'd say make it so a beagle equipped mech can target an ECM cloaked mech from under 300m as opposed to the normal 200m, or something along those lines.

#27 Korm

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:52 PM

View PostFelix, on 05 December 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:



Leave ECM on the mechs that have it, allow all mechs to mount ECCM


This translates to: allow streakcats to mount ECCM, so they can win the game again by pressing LMB. No.

View PostStargazer86, on 05 December 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

[color=#959595]Or the Commando with three?[/color]


Said Commando is able to fit ECM module therefore it can counter hostile ECM.

Edited by Korm, 05 December 2012 - 04:52 PM.


#28 Fate 6

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:56 PM

This is one important way to balance ECM. The fact that it is its own counter only means more mechs will have it, thus exacerbating the ECM problem.

Making 1 ECCM counter all ECMs is good once they are separated. I support this thread.

#29 Seanamal

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:23 PM

View PostStargazer86, on 05 December 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:


So the solution to streak cats is to neuter streaks for all mechs? Because I believe the A1 Streak Cat build was the only one that people were consistently complaining about. How about the HBK-4SP with two streaks? Or the Commando with three? It hurts them just as much. And LRMs, before the patch, were perfectly fine. They were at a nice balance where they weren't killing mechs by themselves yet were providing effective supporting fire as long as your team had decent scouts. ECM doesn't fill a hole in gameplay, it completely negates an entire playstyle. Adding in an element that effects ALL builds just to make one build less viable does not make for a good design decision.

So, there are only two current solutions to ECM? TAG and...more ECM? Tagging helps, but it's by no means a counter. And my proposed changes still allow counter-jamming, but force players to make a choice. They can either counter enemy ECM or they can provide their own ECM, but not both.

As a medium driver, I hate Streakapults just as much as you, maybe even more so. But that doesn't mean I think ECM is in a good state of balance right now, not by a long shot. The fact that "More ECM's trumps less ECM's" is, in of itself, absurd. ECCM would provide an effective counter while still allowing for strategic and tactical choices to be made that have a direct impact upon gameplay. Right now, it's "More ECM wins". Not all that tactical.


First off streak still works. Slap a tag unit into the mech, slave it to group one and hold down the button. You will be able to lock on it will just take longer. My point is ECM helps remove unbalanced, no skill builds. I've been running a dedicated e-warfare raven w/ ecm, beagle, tag, ssrm2x2, and mlx2. I keep the tag on and when I get lock fire the streaks. I can also sneak into the backfield, tag a mech from behind and light em up for an LRM barrage. ECM doesn't shatter the game. It makes things that were a little too easy HARDER.

#30 RumRunner151

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:05 AM

ECM is fine. LRMS are fine. SSRMs are fine. Change your play style and adapt.

#31 Cannibal Cat

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 07:53 AM

Assuming they leave ECM as it is, I'd like to see an option for an ECCM suite available for all mech types (you can't use Guardian ECM and a separate ECCM suite on the same mech, as the Guardian already has an ECCM mode).

The ECCM suite would work the same as an ECM in Counter mode, but weigh only 1/2 ton and take up one head or center torso crit and can be used by any mech variant not already equipped with an ECM.

#32 Cyclonite

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:51 PM

This should be discussed more. I believe a module devoted to ECCM is a great idea and may well be the best solution to ECM I've seen. You could make it weigh the same and assign it to only certain mechs. The lesser used ballistics lights/mediums would be fantastic candidates.





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