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#1 Livewyr

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:37 AM

So- what is the point of BAP?

If BAP is supposed to extend detection range, and detect shutdown mechs- only on a "clear day"

why bother?


I can't even play right now (waiting for gaming rig to be repaired) but I've been keeping up with the forums, newsletters, and podcasts- it sounds like ECM is the game changer I expected it to be, but it has no counter except another ECM.

I think the BAP needs to increase the ECM-Cloaked detection range from 25% of normal to 50-60% of normal so it has a use.

Otherwise I see my return to MWO being one of- camp in a corner with an atlas D-DC + ECM and a brawling weapon set.
-----------------------
Also- now that we have ECM in the game, can we remove the damned AMS hardpoint from every mech and go with a few AMS chassis.. like it is supposed to be? Team Warfare is here now.. we can ditch the uber-bots.

#2 Lyteros

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:42 AM

Let me recite you:

It's beta. Don't hit the door on your way out.

#3 Livewyr

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:45 AM

View PostLyteros, on 05 December 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Let me recite you:

It's beta. Don't hit the door on your way out.

A; Recite me?

B: Are you stupid?

C: I think you are, or just oblivious, or both.

D: I raised a criticism and offered a suggestion- said nothing about leaving.. Even mentioned coming back due to gaming rig.

E: Re-read B & C several times.

F: Review yourself.

#4 Clay Pigeon

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:01 AM

It's BETA.

#5 Kinilan

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:03 AM

I find BAP works really well in conjunction with ECM. The extra detection range helps a lot when you yourself can't be spotted by sensors alone. Soon enough people will smarten up and start using FLIR more but until then I'll keep using BAP.

Should also point out that the only counter to ECM is not just another ECM. TAG and Narc both work against ECM and both of them are getting a buff soon enough, Narc in duration of effect and TAG in range.

And finally, matches aren't as bad as you think they will be. ECM isn't all over the place. There are matches where you'll see 3-4 ECM to a side just just as often you'll see 1 or none at all. It's new, people are using it and it is far easier to use than it is to learn how to counter and adapt against. Soon enough people will smarten up and adapt. If anything matches are less standoffish. Groups do poke at each other from range and there is waiting but when the brawl starts it starts in a big way. At least for solo-4 man drops. can't comment on 8 man since I haven't played enough of them yet but the few I did play were quite fun.

#6 Octantis

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:12 AM

BAP is an early detection system. I roll one on my CAT and sit up on the upper satellite dish on Forest Colony. From there with a range of just over 1000 m you can target a light just entering the water 200 m before they can target you. In that time you can lob one salvo of LRM and more importantly tell your other lights where their light is and they can intercept before their light tags and targets.

If you want to be selfish. With the extra range you get the 15xp and 2000 cbill spot bonus each and every time.

The best part is Fear. If you see missiles incoming and can't target where they came from it's a chilling effect on movement in open territory.

#7 Taryys

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:16 AM

I agree, BAP should not be completely negated by ECM, but should only be hindered.

One of BAP's greatest use is extending your detection range for scouts and LRM boats.

#8 Prosperity Park

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:20 AM

Gentlemen and Ladies, can we please not have any back-and-forth stuff? You can criticize someone's ideas, but please don't call each other stupid or outright dismiss other posters and tell them to leave...

Posted Image

Edited by Prosperity Park, 05 December 2012 - 11:21 AM.


#9 Volthorne

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:25 AM

According to the TT rules, BAP doesn't extend sensor range, it detects everything within 4 hexes (unsure about LoS requirement). So, how PGI has implemented BAP is actually incorrect... BAP would then theorhetically be the direct counter to ECM for non-ECM 'Mechs. But, do we then limit which variants can carry BAP?

SO MANY QUESTIONS!

Edited by Volthorne, 05 December 2012 - 11:26 AM.


#10 GatorG

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:25 AM

As it is only a day in I think it is too early to judge it (I like playing LRM boats and I saw artemis was OP from the start, this just as a notification that I am not happy about LRM nerfs). If it turns out the ECM is too much I would like to see BAP turned into an answer. My suggestion is that a BAP equipped mech reduces the ECM bubble to 90m and increases it's targeting range into the bubble to 400m, so a .5 and x2 thing, possibly father increased by the module. What this would encourage is more team cooperation and building with plans that involve more that, "OK we have a scout or 2 and everyone else has lots of guns, let do this." I was running my DC with EMC tonight with a buddy using his Scat, and, imagine this, if he told me that he needed me to counter an EMC, and I did, he still got kills, and so did our LRM boat. I did work best with 2 DCs, but it was at least somewhat effective with just 1. So imho it is not OP, if the community as a whole (and the Devs) decide otherwise, I think my BAP suggestion, or something along those lines, could solve to problem and assist in the goal of encouraging more team play.

#11 Valder

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:34 AM

BAP is mostly useful for missile boats right now. You put a BAP and TAG on and it lets you get more locks on your own, which is important now that ECM has made C3 information sharing unreliable.

#12 TruePoindexter

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:42 AM

I have it on my Cicada with ECM. My job is to provide information and hinder enemy information. Even if it's only a minor improvement in capturing information on the field it's worth it.

#13 Bguk

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:51 AM

View PostLivewyr, on 05 December 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

I can't even play right now (waiting for gaming rig to be repaired) but I've been keeping up with the forums, newsletters, and podcasts- it sounds like ECM is the game changer I expected it to be, but it has no counter except another ECM.


Please play in game before seeing how it is. Not saying you can't have an opinion on the topic, it just may be different than what you think without trying it.

And some other counters are TAG(outside the 180m radius), teamwork, lasers, ballistics, non lock missiles. 4 out of the 5 can be bought with in game currency.

Edited by Bguk, 05 December 2012 - 11:59 AM.


#14 SteelPaladin

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

View PostKinilan, on 05 December 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

TAG and Narc both work against ECM


What?

From patch notes:

Quote

* Disables enemy NARC


#15 Taryys

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

.. and TAG currently only works if the tagger is outside the ECM radius.

Edited by Taryys, 05 December 2012 - 11:58 AM.


#16 Bguk

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:00 PM

I have a feeling they will update NARC so that it will become a direct fire ballistic that would negate ECM on the hit mech.

View PostTaryys, on 05 December 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

.. and TAG currently only works if the tagger is outside the ECM radius.


Yeah. I forget all information is needed when posting instead of treating it like people know already.

Edited by Bguk, 05 December 2012 - 11:59 AM.


#17 PurpleNinja

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:02 PM

It's NOT beta.

:) :D

#18 Taryys

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:15 PM

How about we don't get into this discussion, since it will go nowhere fast?
Mmmkay! Thanks! :)

View PostPurpleNinja, on 05 December 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

It's NOT beta.

:D :ph34r:


#19 PurpleNinja

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:21 PM

View PostTaryys, on 05 December 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

How about we don't get into this discussion, since it will go nowhere fast?
Mmmkay! Thanks! :)

Owww, don't spoil the fun.
It's always fun to fight pointlessly over the beta topic.

:D :ph34r:

#20 Livewyr

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

all I know right now is that I was looking forward to having a struggle of BAP versus ECM. where ECM would allow a person to hide very effectively from normal sensor systems but BAP would partially negate that. I think it is very silly...very very silly that the only way to effectively counter the close range electronics shield is with...another close range electronics shield.

that isn't rock paper scissors balance, that is paper and paper balancing that effectively removes fire support from the equation. (I say this under the pretense that any intelligent enemy would know how to exploit this system (whose only weakness against any long range detection is itself in short range...)

with ECM so prevalent and available, it should have at least a partial counter other than itself. (don't give me the "don't bring missiles" defense that will get about as far as the "use cover" defense did in the LRMs threads..)





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