Jump to content

Ecm Implementation Defies Reality A Little


28 replies to this topic

#1 Noodlesoup

    Member

  • Legendary Founder
  • 255 posts
  • LocationTexas

Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:58 PM

Has anyone else noticed that the current ecm is a bit.. wonky.. when it comes to defying conventional ecm realities? (yes i know we're operating in the 31st century, but physics will still hopefully apply in the future)

i don't believe the current implementation where it projects a "bubble" effect stealthing nearby mechs is appropriate.

If you consider the fluff and the "real world" ECM comparisons, then ECM disruption is caused by broad-band interference (noise) generated by the ECM source (in this case, the ECM carrying mech).

This interference in hindsight makes the broadcaster extremely visible (in terms of the receiving end knowing that someone is jamming and therefore someone is "out there") but today, we see ecm working in the opposite, it makes things "quiet". i.e. there is a complete absence of information.

In other words, the current ECM module is functioning more as a STEALTH BUBBLE instead of a jamming device.

ideally, ecm should function (compared to real world examples) as such:

ECM equipped mech enable an ECM module, and starts putting out lots of noise, however, the noise has a range (say 200m). Enemy AND friendly mechs inside this ECM range should be "Jammed" and unable to use/see sensor data due to the broadband interference. Mechs being Jammed should very clearly be aware that they are inside an ECM interference zone. Mechs outside the effective "jam" zone on the other hand should have an EXTREMELY clear notification that something is out there making lots of noise (in other words, a big red fuzzy blip).

there's also a slight problem with the ECCM implementation

ECCM works by filtering and/or ignoring the noise and allowing the ECCM equipped mech to "burn through" the jamming and overpower the noise. it shouldn't magically "cancel" ECM. it currently works as a counter-jamming device (ECM within range of ECCM gets "canceled") which doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

ideally ECCM should work a little more like this:

ECCM equipped mech finds itself inside a jamming field (within 200m of an ECM enabled mech). ECCM equipped mech enables ECCM module and is now able to detect previously "jammed" signals while inside the ECM bubble. Mechs without ECCM shouldn't benefit at all unless they can receive data from the ECCM equipped mech (say via C3?).

What this means to gameplay:

ECM shouldn't be a magic stealth bubble. nothing in ECM indicates it should be working as a stealth bubble signal black hole that just eats radar/sensor data. ECM should affect PROXIMITY targets (friend and foe) and not targets 1000m across a map outside of ECM range.

ECCM shouldn't be a magic anti-ECM that benefits an entire team. it should enable an ECCM equipped mech to burn through ECM while being jammed (i.e. for example maybe while within 120m of the jamming source.)

But most of all, the part that is completely counter-intuitive and disconcerting, is the STEALTH BUBBLE effect of ECM today.


EDIT:

If you want a good explanation of a what an in-game ECM implementation that adheres more to "real world" type ECM engagements feel free to check out the EVE implementation of ECM and how ECM and ECCM work in the EVE universe. In EVE ECM is a tool used actively against a searching party, not passively to "stealth" people around you.

http://wiki.eveunive...#What_is_ECM.3F

Edited by Noodlesoup, 05 December 2012 - 05:47 PM.


#2 BDU Havoc

    Member

  • Legendary Founder
  • 1,082 posts
  • LocationBarrie, ON

Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:12 PM

Do we really need another thread about how an imaginary piece of electronics in a fictional universe used by a computer game doesn't work according to reality?


I think not.

#3 Khobai

    Member

  • Elite Founder
  • Phoenix Overlord
  • Phoenix Overlord
  • 9,612 posts
  • Locationplease remove ghost heat

Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:14 PM

ECM should just work like it does in tabletop. Thats powerful enough for 1.5 tons. Theres no need for the cloaking device nonsense.

#4 Solis Obscuri

    Don't Care How I Want It Now!

  • Legendary Founder
  • Phoenix Overlord
  • Phoenix Overlord
  • 4,471 posts
  • LocationPomme de Terre

Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:15 PM

Devs got their nerd-fandoms confused:

Posted Image

#5 superteds

    Member

  • Elite Founder
  • 450 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:35 PM

ecm in a game set lots and lots of years away, on other worlds and dreamed up the 1980's doesn't match actual RL ecm?



k?

#6 Virtusx

    Member

  • Elite Founder
  • 211 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:43 PM

You are absolutely correct, what was I thinking! And here I was stomping around in a 100 ton bipedal tank with enough space to supposedly hold like over 1000 missiles or 150 large caliber shells :(

Yes it could work closer to real life but, we have what we have and it could get tweaked soon.

#7 Noodlesoup

    Member

  • Legendary Founder
  • 255 posts
  • LocationTexas

Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

i know you can't compare battletech to reality. but my main point was that it currently has more of a stealth bubble effect than anything remotely resembling ECM by any stretch of the imagination.

i think most people have a gut feeling that MWO ecm isn't really working how it should be in the battletech universe, but there's no real consensus on how it should be "fixed".

#8 Deadoon

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 965 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:01 PM

View PostVirtusx, on 05 December 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

You are absolutely correct, what was I thinking! And here I was stomping around in a 100 ton bipedal tank with enough space to supposedly hold like over 1000 missiles or 150 large caliber shells :(

Yes it could work closer to real life but, we have what we have and it could get tweaked soon.

Those missiles are small enough to be man portable. and the large caliber shells aren't usually that large. The abrams does carry 42 120mm shells in a fairly small compartment. Munitions don't take up too much space, just they weigh a whole lot.


View PostBDU Havoc, on 05 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Do we really need another thread about how an imaginary piece of electronics in a fictional universe used by a computer game doesn't work according to reality?


I think not.

This is a shared NUll/Void signiture system or stealth armor. Not the battletech ECM.

Edited by Deadoon, 05 December 2012 - 02:02 PM.


#9 Noodlesoup

    Member

  • Legendary Founder
  • 255 posts
  • LocationTexas

Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:02 PM

View Postsuperteds, on 05 December 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

ecm in a game set lots and lots of years away, on other worlds and dreamed up the 1980's doesn't match actual RL ecm?



k?


ECM existed in the 1980s btw, so it wasn't "dreamed up" out of nothing. it was based upon actual real world ECM. just the MWO implementation is taking it in directions not dreamed of by the original "canon" creators. i don't recall anywhere in canon TT or novels that ECM has a stealth bubble effect masking an entire double lance of assault mechs.

#10 DegeneratePervert

    Member

  • Legendary Founder
  • 790 posts
  • LocationKansas

Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:06 PM

If it helps at all, the target broadcasting ECM is very, very hot on thermals. They're pretty easy to shoot that way, and I use thermals anyway against ECM.

#11 aspect

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 491 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:16 PM

View PostBDU Havoc, on 05 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Do we really need another thread about how an imaginary piece of electronics in a fictional universe used by a computer game doesn't work according to reality?


I think not.


^this.

#12 Smeghead87

    Member

  • Elite Founder
  • 303 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:16 PM

I read the original post, twice in fact. I understand where you are coming from with wanting it to be more realistic, but I can't figure out what your ECM version would actually do for you.

You want it to cancel targetting for everything within 200m range, including team mates.
You want mechs that are being jammed to be aware of it (which they currently are with the low signal indicators)
You want anyone not being jammed to know exactly where the jamming mech is.

So basically, at the start of the match, all friendly mechs are blind until they run far enough away from the ECM mech, whilst the enemy mechs can see you perfectly.

Why would anyone equip that?

#13 msqueak

    Member

  • Legendary Founder
  • 33 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:46 PM

Jamming can be done on more specific frequencies. That way there can be things that you do not jam.....like your allies

Edited by msqueak, 05 December 2012 - 04:19 PM.


#14 Noodlesoup

    Member

  • Legendary Founder
  • 255 posts
  • LocationTexas

Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:39 PM

View PostDegeneratePervert, on 05 December 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

If it helps at all, the target broadcasting ECM is very, very hot on thermals. They're pretty easy to shoot that way, and I use thermals anyway against ECM.


i didn't notice that, but that makes no sense whatsoever lol, why would something putting out RF noise show up "hot" on thermals. lol.

#15 Noodlesoup

    Member

  • Legendary Founder
  • 255 posts
  • LocationTexas

Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:44 PM

View PostSmeghead87, on 05 December 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

I read the original post, twice in fact. I understand where you are coming from with wanting it to be more realistic, but I can't figure out what your ECM version would actually do for you.

You want it to cancel targetting for everything within 200m range, including team mates.
You want mechs that are being jammed to be aware of it (which they currently are with the low signal indicators)
You want anyone not being jammed to know exactly where the jamming mech is.

So basically, at the start of the match, all friendly mechs are blind until they run far enough away from the ECM mech, whilst the enemy mechs can see you perfectly.

Why would anyone equip that?


because you can (And are supposed to) turn it on and off. it can also be used to spoof. historically ECM and radio chatter has been used before to generate signals and the appearance of force buildup, where there may have been none.

also, jamming should highlight the mech creating the noise, not everyone else.

think of it this way, ECM or "jamming" is someone screaming loudly, so loud that nobody near him can hear, speak, or hear other people speak in any reasonable sense to the point that their senses are overwhelmed. however, someone far away can clearly hear that someone is screaming.but is far enough away to not be overwhelmed.

There are real life reasons jamming is a legitimate and valid tactic, there are also drawbacks to doing it. (and there's a damn good reason it's highly illegal in the US to "jam" or otherwise interfere with RF frequencies even in unlicensed bands).

All in all, i think what i mentioned adds the ability to "spoof" to the list of features ECM has while making it adhere more to what ECM should be and makes it more sensible and easier to understand versus the magic stealth bubble that exists today.

#16 TwoFaced

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 229 posts
  • LocationVirginia

Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:47 PM

I would love to see the ecm light up on theremal, that would be awesome and it would be going with real aspects as in the energy on these systems would give off a lot of heat, just like convential systems, the air around them get got from the enery interatction with moisture.

And no, the physics do not work, 2 ecm on same team would negate each other and cause problems targeting thier enemy.

#17 Noodlesoup

    Member

  • Legendary Founder
  • 255 posts
  • LocationTexas

Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:47 PM

View Postmsqueak, on 05 December 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Jamming can be done on more specific frequencies. That way there can be things that you do not jam.....like your allies


true, but then in this highly advanced age of technology, the opposing team could just switch to a channel that isn't being jammed. (this is actually reflected in canon novels)

BUT, this only applies to communication.

as far as the "radar" is concerned, the assumption is we're all using the same/similar radar technology which relies on same/similar effective radar bands, so if you jam one, but not the other, then it's a shared principle, everyone can just switch to the band that isn't being jammed and voila, no more ECM. now, to counter that, ECM will jam *all* effective radar bands, that leads to both friendly and enemy mechs being "blinded".

It makes no sense that ECM as implemented today does two things. 1. stealth bubble 2. only affects the other team.

#18 Noodlesoup

    Member

  • Legendary Founder
  • 255 posts
  • LocationTexas

Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:51 PM

View PostBDU Havoc, on 05 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Do we really need another thread about how an imaginary piece of electronics in a fictional universe used by a computer game doesn't work according to reality?


I think not.


following your logic, we should abolish the forum completely, as discussion of imaginary concepts about a fictional universe is completely pointless and we should consume what the game developer gods feed to us without question. go comment on someone else's thread or even better, get out of general discussion if you're not here to discuss general items.

edit: I a whole word

Edited by Noodlesoup, 05 December 2012 - 04:52 PM.


#19 River Walker

    Member

  • Elite Founder
  • 831 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:53 PM

View PostNoodlesoup, on 05 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

i know you can't compare battletech to reality. but my main point was that it currently has more of a stealth bubble effect than anything remotely resembling ECM by any stretch of the imagination.

i think most people have a gut feeling that MWO ecm isn't really working how it should be in the battletech universe, but there's no real consensus on how it should be "fixed".

ECM dos the same thing as a stealth bomber ECM of today, It hide it from Radar and other detection devices.
it dos not Clock it like some Romulan cloaking device. You are stating something that is not FACT in how it works in the Game.

Edited by River Walker, 05 December 2012 - 04:54 PM.


#20 LordBraxton

    Member

  • Veteran Founder
  • 1,826 posts

Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:54 PM

View PostVirtusx, on 05 December 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

You are absolutely correct, what was I thinking! And here I was stomping around in a 100 ton bipedal tank with enough space to supposedly hold like over 1000 missiles or 150 large caliber shells :)

Yes it could work closer to real life but, we have what we have and it could get tweaked soon.


really 100 tons isnt that much. an abrams weighs around 60 right? And thats with space inside for crew...

The weight to size ratio for mechs always confused me





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users