84 replies to this topic

[Captain Wolfus Maximus]

It`d be AWESOME to have the Clanners more powerful then the IS because it would prove that it`s the Pilot not the Mech.

[Semyon Drakon]

I am already resigned to being horribly outnumbered when i finally get to drop as a clan mechwarrior. Seeing match-ups of a Star vs a Company will not be outside the realms of possibility depending on the size of the mechs making up the clan force.

That said I am also looking forward to it. Clever pilots, good commanders and Clan tech will keep it from being a walkover and will prove finally that it's the meat not the motion that makes the difference.

Semyon

[Arbhall Sommers]

I still dont think that honor is a mechanic that can be effectively enforced, without ruining the balance of rewards. IS is behind the curve technologically, behind the training regimen of the clans, and has only the advantage of numbers.
Designating targets is a great idea, and so is bidding before the actual combat of a match.
Beyond that i do not see a clear and easy way a computer can track honor, the AI is a bot run on numbers and patterns. If you can teach a computer program honor, then yes it is a mechanic that can be implemented.
If you cant its all on the humans behind the screens. And like me, most players are motivated by a desire to have fun.
Having a rules system rammed down our throats will most definitely take away from the fun, and keep me from spending real world money on this game. Something I am looking forward too, since i am an old and die hard fan.
Clans have been in previous games, and you know what?
They worked just fine. Some used them, others didnt and everyone had fun.
Simple and easy.
Wait for the game to come out, play the clans or dont. But dont rail around screaming its so unfair that the clans have so many advantages. Thats the way it is. Dont like it. Find another game.

[Kreisel]

Strum Wealh, on 15 May 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

IMO, the RP aspect (non-use of contractions, use of Clan-speak, the "attitude", etc) can ans should be moderated by the players

However, the mechanics of playing Clan (mainly enforcing Zell) should, IMO, be built into the game itself; maybe I just have too little faith in humanity, but I suspect that the proportion of would-be Clanners that would actually pay Zell any mind, much less adhere to it while at the helm of their 'Mech, would be so small as to not be statistically significant.

As such:


IMO, Clan vs IS should be run at a ratio of one Binary (two Stars, representing a total of 10 Clan 'Mechs) to one Company (three Lances, representing a total of 12 IS 'Mechs).

Additionally:
1.) Similar to Gigaton's suggestion, each Clanner would be able to designate any as-yet unclaimed unit from the opposing team as "theirs" to defeat.
Said Clanner would then be responsible for defeating each of their claimed target(s) by engaging them single-handedly.
One Clanner firing on another another's already-claimed target(s) results in one moderate penalty being leveled against the entire team, AND a second, more substantial penalty being leveled against the offending player for each shot that lands.

2.) Any unit that fires on a Clan 'Mech is automatically "claimed" by the Clanner in question.
All IS units and Clan units of a weight class different from that of the Clanner in question "claimed" in such a manner would be designated differently from those actively "claimed" by the Clanner in question; the former would be able to be "unclaimed" if not fired upon by the Clanner in question while the latter must be engaged.
Any not-previously "claimed" unit that the Clanner in question fires upon is considered "claimed" as though it had been actively "claimed" by the Clanner in question.

3.) Use of Artillery and AOE weapons imparts a minor penalty against the entire team AND an additional moderate penalty against the offending Clanner with each firing (regardless of whether any targets are actually hit by said artillery or AOE weapons).

4.) Breaking line-of-sight from all "claimed" targets for an extended period (ex. more than 10 seconds) imparts a moderate penalty against the offending Clanner.

5.) Starting a round with a 'Mech equipped with a C3 system or TAG unit imparts a moderate penalty against the offending Clanner AND an additional minor penalty against the entire team for each 'Mech so equipped.

All penalties would be levied against any or all of the Clan player's/unit's XP earned, Loyalty Points (or equivalent), and currency units earned.
The intent is to outline a system that makes it not worth would-be Clanners' while "to play as basically IS with starter access to generally-bettter equipment" rather than "to play as the Clans in both spirit as well as in name", while still being flexible enough to address most situations that could come up.
(I realize that my short outline could not possible cover all possible situations, but it's meant more as a seed to promote discussion than to be a comprehensive solution unto itself.)

Your thoughts?

A lot of good stuff here, I've the key we need to look at with Zellbringer in MWO is which aspects will bring the most balance between it and Clan tech. Fun is the goal, so we should be looking at it as positives, at rewards for good behavior, the only punishments or penalties ought to be for behaviors that take away from the experience of other players.

I still think a Battchall bidding system counterpart to the Merc's bidding for contracts system would go a long way to encouraging Clan mentality, whoever is confident they can win with the least at their disposal is the one who gets the privileged of going on the mission, but it's normally not underbidding what you think you can reasonably win with.

Lets say that instead of Loyalty points clan members have 'Honor' it's basically the same thing. This is the only stat that ought to be effected by Zellbringer. You still learned from the experience of the battle even if you were a low down dirty cheat so it makes little sense to cut into Xp over this. Mind you IS rank affects player income, in the same way I expect Clan rank would effect it, so honor does mean c-bills in a round about way.

It's best if this system is kept as simple and straightforward as possible. We want to minimize greifers, while maximizing the fun of sticking to Zellbringer.

• 1. Clan players should be rewarded Honor for each Mech they take out which only they damaged (or which other damage was small enough to be deemed likely an accident)
  
• 1a. This bonus is larger if you take out all the otherwise unclaimed mechs the same weight class as you before challenging other weight classes. (this prevents your scout from claiming the Atlas on your Assault player and leaving him only the mediums or smaller to shoot... or your only assault ignoring the big guns and declaring he will blow up the Jenner first while leaving the rest of you to contend with the 'Steiner Scout Lance'.)
  
• 1b. If someone else does shoot your foe, you still gain a marginal amount of honor as long as it's only one person, as it might just be someone trying to be a jerk.
  
• 2. Clan players should receive honor if they never move beyond the their max weapon range once they have engaged a mech.
  
• 3. Clan players should get honor if they never shoot another Clan players target during the match.
  
• 3a. a system need to be in place so a player may not hog all the targets and force other players out of having any foe to shoot. While Zellbringer allows you to challenge multiple foes, this might have to simply be handled as... one foe at a time, then move on to the next. Otherwise 10 Clanners could drop against 12 IS and 3 Clan players could call two targets right off the bat... and well. One of you is sitting out that game then.
  
• 4. If a Clanner picks a target and focuses on him, not damaging any other player until that player is defeated they should receive some honor, because they may have been trying to stick to Zellbringer despite whatever other players are up to.
  
• 5. Honor is gained if once you engage a foe, your movement never takes you out of line of sight from that foe.
  
• 6. If you have destroyed your target, and only Mechs left have already been claimed by other pilots, you should get honor for sitting back and watching, rather than shooting them. This honor gain should increase the longer you have to sit around waiting.
  
• 6a.That said, if one of your teams pilots goes down, his target becomes fair game, and should not count against shooting other players targets. You should also gain honor if you beat the mech that defeated your ally without anyone else helping you.

To reflect the Clans adapting the the 'dishonor' of the IS, any time an IS Mech shoots you, you should have a few second gap to get a single 'free' shot off that doesn't count against Zellbringer. I.e... if everyone is destoryed but one IS mech and he decides that rather than fight the guy dueling him, he's going to come over and keep shooting you over and over again while your trying to stand back honorably and watch, you ought to be able to defend yourself (and ought to be able to do so without sullying the honor of the guy who is trying to duel the IS jerk), and given some mechs are slower than others simply running away doesn't really cut it.

Really not sure how to handle the 'failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited' aspect of Zell... so many potential problems with that

I think the simpler way to handle gear like artillery and C3 for Clanners would to simply restrict it so they can't start the match with a match loaded with it. They are not supposed to have it so they simply can't get it. If Clan mechs are separate from IS mechs (we have no idea if this will be the case yet or not) then Clan chassis should simply not be able to have C3 put on them in first place. This gives the IS some advantages of having some gear that the Clans simply do not have access to in the same way the they don't have Access to Clan gear.

A little medal should appear by your name at the end of the match for each aspect of Zellbringer you managed to accomplish during the match. I.e, this grants players an additional bragging right of sorts and gives them an instant gratification of a small acknowledgement that they earned an 'achievement' of sorts due to how they played. It's insane the out of the way things players will do just to earn an 'Achievement'.

Edited by Kreisel, 16 May 2012 - 08:10 PM.

[chaz706]

To all who think that IS would break Zellbrigen... you're right. It did happen (in Canon) during the clan invasions.

There were those who adapted to such 'underhanded' tactics.

And there were IS units who took advantage of Zellbrigen.

There were also IS units who beat the clanners at their game.

Strum Wealth's post would be a great starting point for in-clan enforcement of Zellbrigen (penalties for breaking it and so forth) but there should also be a system that recognizes when IS teams break it first. When the Clans realized that the IS wasn't going to play by their rules some adopted (like Clan Wolf) and some didn't.

There should be something for that situation as well.

[Edit]
May I also add within the Clan's Trial system there was also a rule involving possible Melee situations (i.e. free-for-alls) when someone broke the initial rules

Edited by chaz706, 16 May 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[Morashtak]

Since so many here have the same idea of what I posted in another thread I'll simply agree that the devs should never punish behavior that is within the rules but they can reward behavior that goes above and beyond the rules.

Set in place the mechanics that reward playing with a Clan mindset and let the players decide for themselves if the risk/reward is acceptable to them. If it is, they will be amply rewarded. If they believe it is not in their best interest they are not so richly rewarded (but never punished).

chaz706, on 16 May 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

To all who think that IS would break Zellbrigen... you're right. It did happen (in Canon) during the clan invasions.

There were those who adapted to such 'underhanded' tactics.

And there were IS units who took advantage of Zellbrigen.

There were also IS units who beat the clanners at their game.

And we shouldn't overlook the fact that the tactic were a foreign concept to the average IS warrior - focused fire was the norm. Not some strange kind of "Mech Jousting". So they used what they knew until they knew better - then turned the tactic to their favor when they figured out what the Clans were doing.

Yes, later, things got really sneaky and I do not condemn any of the Clans for tossing out the old rule when their foes used it against them. But it didn't happen immediately across the board either.

Edited by Morashtak, 19 May 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[AussieGiant]

There's some very good ideas here...all of which should be considered by the developers.

I for one certainly think the Clan invasion should be represented as accurately as possible using in-game mechanics to create a frame work for clanners to play inside of.

This is canon, this is very possible due to many in-game options, and this is what made the invasion so much fun in the first place.

Edited by AussieGiant, 19 May 2012 - 11:30 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

No clansman drafted this thread. The term "clanner" is offensive. Note to OP, this poll would have been more appropriate in the House threads. A true Clansman cares not what you think since the fiction shows us all what an IS-player is when faced with honorable combat.

Frankly, I have always been of the opinion that the only people having issues with Clan honor, etc are those who got spanked by better pilots (irrespective of mech - whether Clan or IS) who happened to prefer the Clans as their fighting force of choice.

In NBT-HC and Mercs, we (as CBS) faced teams of great IS players well representing their Houses or Corps. All gave as good as they got and there was little of the animosity shown in these threads towards the Clan-oriented set of players - for a game not even out yet.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 21 May 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

I completely agree with: "you can't legislate behavior" so don't even bother.

as usual, this conversation ignores the fact that normal players when faced with a losing game, will do anything in their power to bring about a win. Sure talking about following zell is nice now, but what about when it's down to 1 IS mech vs 1 Clan mech. you think the IS player would agree to a duel? would the clanner? or would each player rather play the game how they see fit to kill the opponent and clinch the win?

which is more important? personal victory in a duel? or victory for your player clan?
I'd bet victory for the team ranks higher, seeing as how this is a team oriented game.

would it not be easier to just take the 'hit' against your honor for breaking zell if it means overall that you won, and wouldnt the win now vindicate you breaking zell?

zell is a stupid concept; it was a meta-concept thrown on top of the game because the original writers for the clan either didn't care about the blatant munchkin tech or didn't notice it, frankly I don't know which is worse.

if everyone is worried about clan tech being too powerful, then why don't we just scale back clantech a little? why does it have to be all-or-nothing? why can't IS tech and Clan tech be powerful in different ways?

weapons, mechs, armor all have various stat points that can be played around with to produce different 'flavored' armies. Just look at games like Warmachine, Warhammer, or in Video games: Starcraft. All units share the same stat line, but have different values and a few abilities and designed weaknesses.

Just make both tech trees powerful in different ways; enforcing zell as a counterweight to clan tech does not solve the problem, it never has.

[Taigen]

1. enforce honor: No. The OP description of clan honor is already wrong. Shooting the rear of a mech is not dishonorable by clan standard. It is only dishonorable if the opponent has already surrendered and is leaving the circle of equals at end of fight. Same with legging, it is not dishonorable at all. Clan warriors actually leg a lot, to salvage without destroying.

There is of course a base standard that is expected of Clansmen. Two examples : performing bidding or batchall and respecting zell until someone breaks it then anything goes of course. Those general ones that are accepted by all clans can be added through penalty/bonus LP points. But stay away from the personal play style "honor" rules such as legging (old excuse since MW2), those have nothing to do with Clan honor.

2. Should we : No
See my point above.

3. No, balance is important. Clansmen in games are not clansmen in canon , they are not genetically engineered , superior warriors , but are just average terrans playing pew pew fun with mechs . Keep it balanced and challenging for all parties.

[RangerRob]

Would be near impossible to enforce...

So give "Clan" pick up groups only 2 Stars of mechs (10), to the Company (12) of Inner Sphere.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

RangerRob, on 23 May 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

Would be near impossible to enforce...

So give "Clan" pick up groups only 2 Stars of mechs (10), to the Company (12) of Inner Sphere.

everyone keeps saying that but what about weight? particular mechs taken?

I'd put more faith into either a battlevalue system but the more likely outcome is a matchmaker system which takes into account more than just numbers.

[Jaroth Winson]

Taigen, on 23 May 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

The OP description of clan honor is already wrong. Shooting the rear of a mech is not dishonorable by clan standard. It is only dishonorable if the opponent has already surrendered and is leaving the circle of equals at end of fight. Same with legging, it is not dishonorable at all. Clan warriors actually leg a lot, to salvage without destroying.

There is of course a base standard that is expected of Clansmen. Two examples : performing bidding or batchall and respecting zell until someone breaks it then anything goes of course. Those general ones that are accepted by all clans can be added through penalty/bonus LP points. But stay away from the personal play style "honor" rules such as legging (old excuse since MW2), those have nothing to do with Clan honor.

Exactly what I was saying. Tell Kay Wolf that. What an ***.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 23 May 2012 - 07:31 AM.

[Deathbane]

Legging is not a part of zellbrigen.

Wrong poll is wrong.

[Jaroth Winson]

Back up that statement.

[RangerRob]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 23 May 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

everyone keeps saying that but what about weight? particular mechs taken?

I'd put more faith into either a battlevalue system but the more likely outcome is a matchmaker system which takes into account more than just numbers.

Devs have already said that tonnage, chassis and some sort of BV will go into balancing matches.

I suggest adding yet another level that being 6 IS mechs to every 5 clanners. I by no means was suggesting a pure 10 vs 12 system.

[TripleHex]

Although the rules of Zellbrigen are pretty strict, there are only a few Clans that enforce that strictness. If I remember correctly, zellbrigen was practically discarded by most Clanners when fighting I.S. forces, but only after the Battle of Tukayyid. Most of them still enforce it when fighting other Clans (Clan Wolf-in-Exile being an exception), especially if the warrior/Clan they're fighting has any honor. Perhaps a way to program this is into the game is with "Honor Points" among the Clans... points that are earned by fighting/scouting, and are similar in effect to C-bills for the I.S., but different in that not only do they buy mechs/parts, they also show your rank/status as a Clanner. There will also need to be a way to deduct these "Honor Points" if a Clanner fights dishonorably, but that's not hard to do.

[color=#000000]How [/color]zellbrigen[color=#000000] is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, [/color]zellbrigen[color=#000000] is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, [/color]zellbrigen[color=#000000] is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.[/color]^[4][color=#000000]
Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. MeanwhileClan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation ofzellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.^[4][/color]
[color=#000000]
After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.^[4][/color]
[color=#000000]
Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.[/color]

[Drakewolff Kerensky]

as a wolf dragoon i use clan and is so how would that be done

[Emperor Cassius]

I'm of the mind that you cannot force someone to play a certain way. No matter what mechanics there are in the game.

As to match balance....

How would you like to come into a match knowing that you will lose if you play IS? Would you continue to play as IS or just switch to being a clanner? It would be poor developing and programming to overbalance one side over the other. All of your premium subscribers would bail and you would be left with nothing but clans with no one but other clans to fight. It may be canon for the clans to have superior mechs but in the overall scheme of making a game where you can play whatever side you choose without fear of over-powered mechs/sides, you have to draw the line in the sand.

When your players choose to play something else after being kicked around too many times it is usually too late to get those gamers back. No matter how many patches you implement after the fact. They are already gone telling their friends "Don't play MechWarrior: Online, it is unbalanced and boring.".

I personally like the IS, but if they decided to make the clans more powerful I would be there faster than I could pull the ejection handle.

[Jaroth Winson]

Hey TripleHex your post got screwed up. There is html code all over. Recheck it man. Happens to me sometimes too.