52 replies to this topic

[MadBoris]

I thought this was worthy of a topic, and since polls seem so popular here I included one for quick comparison...

Quick Breakdown:
VIP status gives people who make a real money purchase in the game a lifetime 50% boost in XP earned during each match.
I think the paying gamers that have busy careers/families may get burned by the f2p model at times because they just don't have the 30-100 hours a week to put in to achieve much in the grind.
It's a pretty high probability that there are a few people on these boards that have jobs that will preclude them from closely competing in XP gain with someone home from school or on summer vacation without a job and a lot of time. One of life's little funnies is usually an individual has time when they have little money/job, and all too often little time with spendable money.
Keep in mind, the grind will have to be something extensive to get a chassis because they are few.

The marriage of the f2p model and some thoughts behind VIP:
I believe the developers deserve to earn wages, and the better the game the more. Unfortunately donations and good will has not worked yet in sustaining a game, so we need mutually good incentives.
I think it's great for people to just donate towards the games production as a thank you but that will be limited.
I also believe that the customer of a F2P game is not unjustified in desiring some tangible/palpable benefit for spending their money, other than the aesthetics.
(I think many of us agree we don't want to be coerced even subtly, so lets pretend that psychology won't predominant in this game.)

Many of us know there are many pitfalls in trying to marry the two, but it has been done with some success for both parties in recent times.
So how do you receive tangible benefit for spending money you take time of life to earn, in desire to support the developers and free community?

I think the idea Tribes: Ascend uses works real well:
A 50% XP bonus per match if you made a real money purchase in the game, something fairly substantial like $10-$20 at least.
Edit: Please think of this 50% XP boost I mentuion in Tribes:Ascend equaling 1.5 X more C-bills per match.
It's hardly a big advantage and yet tangible beyond a thank you for the game, shouldn't those who pay have something tangible since time is often something they lack?

What do you all think?
Please discuss! We have great devs on these boards particularly, that are likely to see your thoughts.

(For the record: I personally never have and never see myself spending a dime on the look of my digital in game character, it's not how I think/spend real money. But I don't have a problem spending a $100 for a great game as I've said for over a decade.)

edit: P.S. Please no "Can we stop comparing MWO to Tribes:Ascend?", I hardly started yet.

Edited by MadBoris, 18 May 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[CoffiNail]

I like Tribes: Ascend's idea, I even purchased the game to get in to the BETA, I think it is a great model, and for shelling out 40 dollars the 25-50% bonus XP per match is a good investment, more so if you plan on playing a lot, but more so if you plan on playing more casually.

[Adridos]

You can also easily compare it to the model of Team Fortress 2. It's same in principle, but with less empathy on grind.



P.S. You aren't comparing MWO to Tribes, you're comparing MWO with Ascend. Difference between Tribes and Ascend is easily pictured by saying one of them is a nice, fresh, red apple and the latter one is a rotten apple that slipped around the quality checks.

Edited by Adridos, 18 May 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[MadBoris]

Adridos, on 18 May 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

P.S. You aren't comparing MWO to Tribes, you're comparing MWO with Ascend. Difference between Tribes and Ascend is easily pictured by saying one of them is a nice, fresh, red apple and the latter one is a rotten apple that slipped around the quality checks.

fixed, didn't want a derail that early, and it would too.
Thx for all the comparisons.

Edited by MadBoris, 18 May 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Zakatak]

Since XP plays not much of a role, perhaps a 20% C-Bill bonus for 20$?

Edited by Zakatak, 18 May 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[FrostPaw]

Any kind of permanent xp/loyalty/cbill boost is a bad idea from Piranha games perspective, I envision XP/Loyalty boosts or bonus income multipliers would be temporary, basicly a subscription perk. Buy a subscription to the game and you get extra money and income per match for however long a subscription period you paid for.

Perhaps the first time you spend money they could give you two additional mechbay slots free, that would firstly give players a thankyou for spending money and it would also incentivize players to fill them potentialy spending more money or at least more time in the game.

[Christopher Dayson]

Until we see what rate of conversion is between c-bills and RL $ and how it pertains to C-Bills/$ per hour, any talk of percentages is pointless.

I am not against the concept of a VIP account, as I would gladly pay a monthly fee for a game, I'm just not keen on the percentages given.

[MadBoris]

Zakatak, on 18 May 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Since XP plays not much of a role, perhaps a 20% C-Bill bonus for 20$?

I guess that's what I mean. I don't know that XP alone will be tangible in the game at all.
It comes down to 50% faster advancement, whatever the digital label.
If was thinking amount of XP relates to amount of C bills, repair/purchasing power.

Christopher Dayson, on 18 May 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Until we see what rate of conversion is between c-bills and RL $ and how it pertains to C-Bills/$ per hour, any talk of percentages is pointless.

I am not against the concept of a VIP account, as I would gladly pay a monthly fee for a game, I'm just not keen on the percentages given.

Please forget XP, think c-bills.
Edit added : Edit: Please think of this 50% XP boost I mentuion in Tribes:Ascend equaling 1.5 X more C-bills per match.

Edited by MadBoris, 18 May 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[Christopher Dayson]

Doesn't matter if it's C-Bills or XP, until we see a rate of conversion between C-Bills and RL$ than any percentages are worthless.

[Adridos]

FrostPaw, on 18 May 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

Perhaps the first time you spend money they could give you two additional mechbay slots free...

Right now, you've got unlimited space in the mechbay. It may change later, but we should built the suggestions around facts we know right now.

Source:

Q: How many mechs are we going to be able to have in our stable at launch and atm how many can we unlock or buy after launch?

A: Great question. There shouldn’t be a limit to how many a person can own. Right at launch including variants? Dozens. [RUSS]

[Redshift2k5]

TF2 has to implement a tier between free players and premium players (based on a single purchase of any amount to step up) because 1) they give you items for free via accruing play time and 2) you can trade these items. A big part of the step from a free player to a one-time-purchase-minimum player is it unlocks trading. Otherwise people would grind multiple instances simultaneously with free accounts and collect all the things and trade them.

I don't see any permanent boost being required as an incentive. Temporary boosts should be in the store fro those who wish to spend some money to lighten the grind, and bundles of a new mech plus a boost(at a steep discount) would be excellent, but no need to offer a permanent one-up-manship of a permanent tier of free vs paid, and avoid i-bought-one-cheap-thing-so-i-could-get-this-permanent-boost

[MadBoris]

Christopher Dayson, on 18 May 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Doesn't matter if it's C-Bills or XP, until we see a rate of conversion between C-Bills and RL$ than any percentages are worthless.

I still don't understand.
Amount of c-bills earned per match will be directly related to hours of your real life, that's the crux of this post.
For 10/50/100 hours of your life playing the game earn 1.5 X CB.
I'm sure we have some type of misunderstanding, prolly due to my wall of text.

Edited by MadBoris, 18 May 2012 - 01:43 PM.

[Bullwerk]

I would favor a mechanism that provides more income for the developers. I propose that for every $10 you spend you get 1 month worht of xp bonus. That way it encourages you to spend a bit more money to keep that XP bonus rolling. It rewards you the same no matter how you spend your money too. Spend $50 at one time on stuff? Here's 5 months of enhanced XP. Spend $10 each month for 5 months? You got the same 5 months of XP bonus.

This makes every purchase in the game have some tangible effect on the game, whether you buy an additional mech bay, some currency, a fancy camo skin, or whatever. I think it will go along way to getting people that normally wouldn't spend money on aesthetic items to do so. I know I plan on spending $10 a month on this game at this moment and knowing that I get XP bonuses just for spending that money makes the aesthetic items much more attractive to me!

[Mota Prefect]

MadBoris, on 18 May 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

I thought this was worthy of a topic, and since polls seem so popular here I included one for quick comparison...

Quick Breakdown:
VIP status gives people who make a real money purchase in the game a lifetime 50% boost in XP earned during each match.
I think the paying gamers that have busy careers/families may get burned by the f2p model at times because they just don't have the 30-100 hours a week to put in to achieve much in the grind.
It's a pretty high probability that there are a few people on these boards that have jobs that will preclude them from closely competing in XP gain with someone home from school or on summer vacation without a job and a lot of time. One of life's little funnies is usually an individual has time when they have little money/job, and all too often little time with spendable money.
Keep in mind, the grind will have to be something extensive to get a chassis because they are few.

The marriage of the f2p model and some thoughts behind VIP:
I believe the developers deserve to earn wages, and the better the game the more. Unfortunately donations and good will has not worked yet in sustaining a game, so we need mutually good incentives.
I think it's great for people to just donate towards the games production as a thank you but that will be limited.
I also believe that the customer of a F2P game is not unjustified in desiring some tangible/palpable benefit for spending their money, other than the aesthetics.
(I think many of us agree we don't want to be coerced even subtly, so lets pretend that psychology won't predominant in this game.)

Many of us know there are many pitfalls in trying to marry the two, but it has been done with some success for both parties in recent times.
So how do you receive tangible benefit for spending money you take time of life to earn, in desire to support the developers and free community?

I think the idea Tribes: Ascend uses works real well:
A 50% XP bonus per match if you made a real money purchase in the game, something fairly substantial like $10-$20 at least.
It's hardly a big advantage and yet tangible beyond a thank you for the game, shouldn't those who pay have something tangible since time is often something they lack?

What do you all think?
Please discuss! We have great devs on these boards particularly, that are likely to see your thoughts.

(For the record: I personally never have and never see myself spending a dime on the look of my digital in game character, it's not how I think/spend real money. But I don't have a problem spending a $100 for a great game as I've said for over a decade.)

edit: P.S. Please no "Can we stop comparing MWO to Tribes:Ascend?", I hardly started yet.

Wow bro I couldn't have said it better myself! This is the type of business model I've been wanting PGI to take with MWO allllllll along. I too have given ascend monies while it was still in beta because what they were asking for ( VIP status +50% XP gain ) was not only fair, it was generous. In the case of MWO, I would hope that not only is there an XP boost but some sort of C-bill boost as well.

For me personally, I have a wife, kids, and a full time job so I just don't have the time to grind away, that makes a "VIP status" is extremely appealing to me. I'll tell you right here and now, if this is indeed the way PGI goes, i'll be buying it right away.

P.S. lmao at your edit, you make my point from that thread very clear in this one, my thanks to you.

Edited by Mota Prefect, 18 May 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[Alastair Corsair]

Id Be willing to pay in for some VIP perks. I would hope something around the 30.00 USD mark would be fair for all parties. I wight go as far as $50.00, plz don't make this a 60.00 buy deal, maybe im just longing for my early gamer days ATM.

Also an initial VIP perk set is a good idea and think it should come with other bonuses like early access to new tech[or on going development features, perhaps?]

Last I have seen this issue come up in other games like LOL etc... That is suddenly some F&&*^* noobs with loads cash come in and buy buy buy all kinds of boosts and other enhancements that make any rich player suddenly out class real fans who play the game for the game. I believe you can understand I don't want to see MWO get watered down like that. Im all for real moneys being a part of on going play and further development of this game, kept it all balanced right however.

[Toothman]

Adridos, on 18 May 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Right now, you've got unlimited space in the mechbay. It may change later, but we should built the suggestions around facts we know right now.

Source:

Q: How many mechs are we going to be able to have in our stable at launch and atm how many can we unlock or buy after launch?

A: Great question. There shouldn’t be a limit to how many a person can own. Right at launch including variants? Dozens. [RUSS]

yes because you'll be able to buy as many slots past the four as you want. Giving everyone unlimited slots is so foolhardy I just can't go with your interpretation.

[Adridos]

Toothman, on 18 May 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

yes because you'll be able to buy as many slots past the four as you want. Giving everyone unlimited slots is so foolhardy I just can't go with your interpretation.

Well, I personally belive it has the limitation, but from the answer, I got another point of view. Maybe one day, I'll get a clarification on that matter, but even now 78% chance is it will be same as WoT.

[MadBoris]

Bullwerk, on 18 May 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

I would favor a mechanism that provides more income for the developers. I propose that for every $10 you spend you get 1 month worht of xp bonus. That way it encourages you to spend a bit more money to keep that XP bonus rolling.

You just mentioned the World Of Tanks F2P mechanic in Tribes:Ascend comparison thread on a M:WO forum! Away with you heretic!

In all seriousness, I want more for the devs too which is why I proposed this. I've experienced what you mentioned as iothers with WOT, the road you mention is a slippery F2P slope, yes it does look like the devs would get more that way. That is the MMO way afterall, monthly subs. Devs trying to hard to actively seek more $ in a f2p model is the death knell of the game due to f2p we want to avoid. WOT isn't getting more from me based on that system.

I can see how your system will entice some more, it does work for some, but no I am not paying $120+ a year, I would never play enough, we are moving back to the MMO subs which many hate, which is one reason why f2p came on the seen.

[Christopher Dayson]

MadBoris, on 18 May 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

I still don't understand.
Amount of c-bills earned per match will be directly related to hours of your real life, that's the crux of this post.
For 10/50/100 hours of your life playing the game earn 1.5 X CB.
I'm sure we have some type of misunderstanding, prolly due to my wall of text.

Ok I shall break it down for you:

If Player A is a free player and can make say (completely made up number) 1 million C-Bills an hour of free play, and player B is a VIP player and makes 1.5 million C-Bills in an hour the ratio of C-Bills to $ becomes very important.

If say 1 million C-Bills is 1$ (Probably not, just using it for the sake of this example) then VIP player is getting 50 cents per hour bonus. If 1$ is 100,000 C-Bills, then the VIP player is getting 5$ per hour bonus. See where I'm going with this now?

Until we know the ratio of C-Bills vs $ then arbitrary percentages don't make any sense, it's impossible to quantify what is a good number without all the facts. Without knowing what something costs in C-Bills wether it be chassis, module, paint job, or whatever also determines wether or not the VIP is balanced, or not balanced.

If the VIP offers more $/hour investment then is reasonable then the VIP effectively becomes the only way to 'win', There's a lot of variables that you simply haven't taken account of, mainly because we can't know them until they give us that information. They have not. Thus, percentages are pointless to discuss.

[MadBoris]

Christopher Dayson, on 18 May 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Ok I shall break it down for you:

If Player A is a free player and can make say (completely made up number) 1 million C-Bills an hour of free play, and player B is a VIP player and makes 1.5 million C-Bills in an hour the ratio of C-Bills to $ becomes very important.

If say 1 million C-Bills is 1$ (Probably not, just using it for the sake of this example) then VIP player is getting 50 cents per hour bonus. If 1$ is 100,000 C-Bills, then the VIP player is getting 5$ per hour bonus. See where I'm going with this now?

Thank you. I see where our misunderstanding is now.

I guess I have always been under the impression that real $ will convert to MC, NEVER CB.

Only certain things in game will be directly purchasable (limited as all good f2p models teach), others will have to come only by gaming experience and skill (earning CB).

If I can buy CB for real money that will put all kinds of wild twists on a lot of aspects, meaning pull my hair out and start over and login with a new alias.

Edited by MadBoris, 18 May 2012 - 02:09 PM.