128 replies to this topic

[Prower]

Alright, so I know that there are a lot of diehard Mechwarrior and BattleTech fans out there, who swear by the canon technology like it is the prime religious text of the Gods, but in my opinion, we need to look at the technology in a more objective manner. So allow me to put out a few facts, and then say a few words, and let us see where it goes.

Fact 1: BattleTech was originally written in the early 70's to late 80's. Back then, TAG systems, miniguns, aircraft that could mount 13,000 pounds of GUIDED munitions, and today's stealth technology were almost legendary peices of technology, and as we all know, writers tend to BUILD on those concepts, but tend to fail to see OTHER concepts that had not even been thought of at the time. Either that, or they simply did not put them onto paper because, at the time, the idea was too farfectched or was simply beyond the imagination of the average person from that era. It is not really the writer's fault, and I am not saying that it is. It is simply how things work.

Fact 2: The canonical representation of BattleTech is BEHIND the curve of current imaginatory capability of the average human being. Take a read of early BattleTech novels, or read the early factsheets. Much of the secondary, and tertiary technology, has already come out or been out on the battlefield for over 20 years or so. These being items such as Linked Battle Nets, guided missiles (the most common of all missile munitions in today's world, with unguided rockets only being seen on occasion and most often in use by very poorly supplied 3rd world soldiers.), TAG-like systems (Spotting lasers), supersonic aircraft, REALLY supersonic aircraft, reactive armors, and a host of other equipment that has become so common that there is no way in three hecks-in-a-handbasket that they could EVER disappear in such a way as to become "Lostech."

Fact 3: We are in 2012. If technology progresses in ANY way similar to BattleTech, we will reach their level of technological progress LONG before the canonical date offered by literature. Therefore, I suggest that it is time to put on the big-boy undies and move to make certain items that are God-awfully common today available, despite the level of technology according to the storybooks. I do not care if they are Lostech. Missile technology, especially GUIDED missile technology, can be made and manufactured by nearly ANYONE today. I saw a kid BULDING a small scale guided missile in his backyard as a SCIENCE project a few months ago. If a kid can do it, then can we REALLY say that we expect guided munitions to disappear on a GALACTIC scale just because it was too far fectched an idea 30 or 40 years ago to see it any other way?

If you ask me, Kerensky would be much more worried about more advanced technology than "missiles that go where you want them to."

Any way, that is all I have to say about that. Looking for some input to see how many people are either going to try to bash the crap out of me for "disputing the word of God," and how many people have a more progressive outlook on the whole thing.

EDIT::

Okay, so I did not make myself clear enough to begin with. I can admit that.

The following is the real reasoning for this post.

My concern is that, while I understand that the canon is indeed the canon, and nothing will change that; The canon is just does not cover things that might should be addressed when it comes to technology, and there is nothing stating that you cannot add technology to it that was not even conceiveable at the time of its writing.

Yes, I understand that there were the Succession Wars, and that Comstar really just messed everyone up for their own sickened goals. What I am trying to say here, is that, despite the rarity of many peices of technology, they should not just have DISAPPEARED entirely, and that SOME technology should, while it did not exist at the time of writing, be considered for addition to the game in such a way that it makes gameplay MORE interesting, and MORE BT-like.

Think about it. There are only SO many BattleMechs of ANY given type at ANY given time within this BT timeframe. Hence, BattleMech Regiments that are house affiliated are most likely going to have access to RARE, but STILL EXISTANT technology that MAY OR MAY NOT exist at the time of writing, and/or that MAY OR MAY NOT be only be able to be produced in a certain, small number.

So there you have it. My apologies for not being more clear on the reason for this post.

Honestly, though... I should not need a lawyer to write a disclaimer to ensure there are no loopholes in a forum post for people to nitpick at.

Edited by Prower, 19 May 2012 - 01:42 PM.

[Adridos]

It's a paralel universe. The technologies gained by cooperation are therefore, non-existent.

[Morashtak]

Or we could just Keep It Simple, Simon.

The modeling for hits, follow-on damage, collateral damage, area of effect, et al would be too much for most of these computers to handle. Staying with a few simple weapons, no matter how unrealistic (*chortle*) it might be keeps the game fun and accessible.

[3Xtr3m3]

No
I wish they could but they won't, because it will separate this game from its roots. The die-hard long time fan will move on to some other form of the game they love and others will find reasons not to stay and next thing you know, hey, the game is not in operation any more.

One of the long time we-all-agree-to-play-by-these-rules rules governs the use of tactical nukes. Those have existed since the 1950's. But they are not in the game. Why not? Because that would make for very short games, the first to use Nukes, wins. Therefore, they are not in the game. But practically, why not, If you bring your Billion dollar dropship containing 12 mechs worth millions of C-Bills each, you would be nuts not to consider a tactical nuclear first strike against the invaders to protect yourself.

This game is what it is.
Arguing on your side, I want RAC's from the start, but I am not going to get them, and I accept that. But I don't like it.

[Prower]

Morashtak, on 19 May 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Or we could just Keep It Simple, Simon.

The modeling for hits, follow-on damage, collateral damage, area of effect, et al would be too much for most of these computers to handle. Staying with a few simple weapons, no matter how unrealistic (*chortle*) it might be keeps the game fun and accessible.

While I agree with your statement, I do not really see how that pertains to the level of technology that is accessable to any give Mechwarrior.

But to follow up on your statement, I think that it could easily be done with some smart programming. Which, I am sure they are doing. Did you see the engine they are using? If your computer is still running on XP SP1, you might need to upgrade. They are using Unreal Engine 3 last I heard. That is high end stuff. The in-game trailer actually DID show sectional damage models, collateral damage, and a host of other innovations that I have only seen in very high production games. This game is going to blow apart any computer 4 years or older. It is as simple as that.

Everyone needs an upgrade eventually.

[Adridos]

Prower, on 19 May 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

They are using Unreal Engine 3 last I heard.

You are talking about advance, but you still live in the past.

They are using CryEngine 3.

[Skigress]

You gotta remember that in the Battletech setting, we have been systematically blasting ourselves back into the stone age, if the clans didn't show up and the different memory cores (basically hard-drives filled with tech info and historical records) not get found, the battlemech wouldn't even be able to be built damn near anymore, factories and R&D facilities were prime targets and most mechs were becoming a thing of the past, quite litterally with most of the best functioning ones being older than the pilot's parents. Add onto that the hoarding and hiding of technology by Comstar, who jelously kept anything they had or found from the public, and made sure that as many people as possible saw the higher technology (most notably the hyper pusle generator communication tech) as beyond them. I'm not saying that they should slave to the rules here, but I am saying the meat of the settings background and feeling is why a lot of people like the games. Theres also this big feifdom political angle but my fingers are tired already...

[Prower]

3Xtr3m3, on 19 May 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

No
I wish they could but they won't, because it will separate this game from its roots. The die-hard long time fan will move on to some other form of the game they love and others will find reasons not to stay and next thing you know, hey, the game is not in operation any more.

One of the long time we-all-agree-to-play-by-these-rules rules governs the use of tactical nukes. Those have existed since the 1950's. But they are not in the game. Why not? Because that would make for very short games, the first to use Nukes, wins. Therefore, they are not in the game. But practically, why not, If you bring your Billion dollar dropship containing 12 mechs worth millions of C-Bills each, you would be nuts not to consider a tactical nuclear first strike against the invaders to protect yourself.

This game is what it is.
Arguing on your side, I want RAC's from the start, but I am not going to get them, and I accept that. But I don't like it.

Oh, I know they will not change the cannon. I just think that in the event that certain peices of equipment ARE around due to mechwarrior or mech abilities, we need to keep these things in mind. Way for me to be facetious, right?

[Christopher Dayson]

You're also forgetting about the dispersion of the human race. Not everyone is on a single planet, there are thousands of planets out there that have been made habitable in some fashion or another. When you are colonizing a new country you do not send factories to build war machines, you send people with equipment and make factories to develop stuff to live with.

Each planet went through a very rough period where they were essentially colonists with very limited means. Some planets were able to build up more than others, some had more resources, some had lots of one resource but not a lot of another. Travel between these worlds was costly and took time so getting enough of what you needed if it took a lot of imports was tricky as well.

So not every planet was built up to the standards of Terra. Then all of the sudden you get intergalactic war on scales the likes of which we have never seen. Whole planets being nuked, billions of lives lost, and of course they didn't fight for the scrubby backwater planet, they fought for the ones who had industry built up and were worth it. Lots of those planets and most of those factories didn't survive the centuries of warfare.

This is what caused the backslide of technology, the focus of the scientists became: How do we keep what we've got running and fighting. They also lost immense storehouses of knowledge mostly cuz Comstar was being a dick and actively destroying it in order to force humanity into a dark age so that they could become the one true leaders of humanity.

They had missiles better than ours, they have guns better than ours, they have lasers better than ours, but in other ways they've lost so much more. It's called the dark ages for a reason, humanity as a whole tends to backslide from time to time.

Take the United States of America. Right now they're trying to rebuild enough to try for the Moon again, but they can't do it right now because they've shifted their manufacturing infrastructure out of their hands for the most part. It's why Russia is doing more trips to the International Space Station than anyone else right now.

So no, we don't need to expand. People need to understand that the theme is accurate for the theme, and they need to understand that weapons behave as they do in the game, not in real life, because it isn't real life. We don't need to expand, people need to stop asking for cake that doesn't exist.

[SouL Winner]

how dare you bash the sacred cannon-ism! infidel! I shall take away thy cookies in the name of Blake! lol jk

Although i agree with you completly, and if one were to make a detailed study of human history you will find how accurate this really is. If you get yourself a KJV bible you'll find that within the first 500 years of man's existence, we were already working with iron and brass, etc.

But it is very possible to get as advanced as we are today with technology to "blast" ourselves back to the 1980s if the right war would ensue. For example, if we were to have a global nuclear war it is quite possible that we could literally blow ourselvs back to the stone age proverbally speaking because what few survivors are left would be so focused on survival that the education behind technology would be forgotten. Sure there would be a lucky few who may have bunkered themselves in places like NORRAD(hope i'm spelling that right) and as a result retain most knowledge of how technology was and probably end up like an equivilant of Comstar.

As dangerous as we are becoming as a race in the subject of warfare, i.e. splitting atoms, jacking up on drugs before going out to battle(lots of soldiers in 3rd world countries get jacked up on meth or heroine before battle), etc. It is quite possible that from now, until the 31st century we can blow ourselves back to the stoneage, completly recover and then do it all over again several times in a row. That's why i love the BT cannon so much, especially the novels: Battletech in my opinion is the most honest representation of humanity in the future that i've seen. It shows that just because our technology evolves and we begin to colonize the stars, it doesn't change the fact that our warlike nature won't follow us to those new worlds.

just my opinion anyways.

[Prower]

Adridos, on 19 May 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

You are talking about advance, but you still live in the past.

They are using CryEngine 3.

Thanks for the update. Being military, I do not really have the ability to keep up and up on all the news with the engines. I was sure that CryEngine 3 was still in dev stages. My point still stands. People are going to HAVE to upgrade to play the game effectively, and I am still sure that the game is still going to have all the effects of the aforementioned.

Skigress, on 19 May 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

You gotta remember that in the Battletech setting, we have been systematically blasting ourselves back into the stone age, if the clans didn't show up and the different memory cores (basically hard-drives filled with tech info and historical records) not get found, the battlemech wouldn't even be able to be built damn near anymore, factories and R&D facilities were prime targets and most mechs were becoming a thing of the past, quite litterally with most of the best functioning ones being older than the pilot's parents. Add onto that the hoarding and hiding of technology by Comstar, who jelously kept anything they had or found from the public, and made sure that as many people as possible saw the higher technology (most notably the hyper pusle generator communication tech) as beyond them. I'm not saying that they should slave to the rules here, but I am saying the meat of the settings background and feeling is why a lot of people like the games. Theres also this big feifdom political angle but my fingers are tired already...

I like that you mentioned ComStar. Those guys are mysterious as all heck. It makes me wonder what their purpose really is. No reason to keep technology secret without some sort of agenda, right?

All in all, I understand what you are saying, though. It makes sense, but it is nice to look at things from the other side sometimes.

[Kay Wolf]

I answered NO because of the way the lore of the game pans out. If you want better, more current, more realistic tech, go play Hawken or Heavy Gear, etc. This is BattleTech, and it should remains as such. Good day.

[Toothman]

If we were logical with the technology we wouldn't use mechs. Make for a pretty boring mechwarrior game.

[Prower]

Christopher Dayson, on 19 May 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

You're also forgetting about the dispersion of the human race. Not everyone is on a single planet, there are thousands of planets out there that have been made habitable in some fashion or another. When you are colonizing a new country you do not send factories to build war machines, you send people with equipment and make factories to develop stuff to live with.

Each planet went through a very rough period where they were essentially colonists with very limited means. Some planets were able to build up more than others, some had more resources, some had lots of one resource but not a lot of another. Travel between these worlds was costly and took time so getting enough of what you needed if it took a lot of imports was tricky as well.

So not every planet was built up to the standards of Terra. Then all of the sudden you get intergalactic war on scales the likes of which we have never seen. Whole planets being nuked, billions of lives lost, and of course they didn't fight for the scrubby backwater planet, they fought for the ones who had industry built up and were worth it. Lots of those planets and most of those factories didn't survive the centuries of warfare.

This is what caused the backslide of technology, the focus of the scientists became: How do we keep what we've got running and fighting. They also lost immense storehouses of knowledge mostly cuz Comstar was being a dick and actively destroying it in order to force humanity into a dark age so that they could become the one true leaders of humanity.

They had missiles better than ours, they have guns better than ours, they have lasers better than ours, but in other ways they've lost so much more. It's called the dark ages for a reason, humanity as a whole tends to backslide from time to time.

Take the United States of America. Right now they're trying to rebuild enough to try for the Moon again, but they can't do it right now because they've shifted their manufacturing infrastructure out of their hands for the most part. It's why Russia is doing more trips to the International Space Station than anyone else right now.

So no, we don't need to expand. People need to understand that the theme is accurate for the theme, and they need to understand that weapons behave as they do in the game, not in real life, because it isn't real life. We don't need to expand, people need to stop asking for cake that doesn't exist.

You realize that people like cake right?

I know about the dipersion of humanity. I have read the novels. I did not forget.

Personally, though, I do not believe that the destruction would be near as absolute as many claim it is. In reading the novels, I have found that there are still many, many planets that have a bolstering population. Upon those worlds, technology like TAG, and other such tech, would be found. And, again, in my opinion (Which... really, BattleTech is one giant opinion on the future of the human race.), I think that any military would be hot-on finding and reverse engineering technology that could help them win more. After all, even Comstar can not be everywhere at once. Proved that with the Gray Death Cache, if memory serves.

[ShootRange]

Theres no frigan way that a country would develop a machine that looks like a human and expect to win wars with it cause they will just have the legs instantly blown apart by a tank or air support, and keep in mind that is would cost much more than a tank like the M1A1 when the M1A1 would blow it apart.

[Gabriel Bekker]

You do make an excellent point. However, one of the sticking points of Star League era technology and "Lostech" is that over the time period of the Succession Wars, a huge amount of advanced technology was lost. Wars and the fall of civilizations have been responsible for losses in technology countless times in human history. There is no reason that this could not happen again.

[Nick Makiaveli]

What he says. The OP is obviously not familiar with the canon of BT. The first few Succession Wars had no limits. They nuked each other's planets, destroyed factories and murdered populations in order to slow the enemies wartime production. The governments also diverted non-military research/production to military research which meant universities and paint factories got nuked as well.

Oh and one final thing. If you change the lore, then it isn't BT any more. If you don't like the lore, then just go play some Mecha game.

Skigress, on 19 May 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

You gotta remember that in the Battletech setting, we have been systematically blasting ourselves back into the stone age, if the clans didn't show up and the different memory cores (basically hard-drives filled with tech info and historical records) not get found, the battlemech wouldn't even be able to be built damn near anymore, factories and R&D facilities were prime targets and most mechs were becoming a thing of the past, quite litterally with most of the best functioning ones being older than the pilot's parents. Add onto that the hoarding and hiding of technology by Comstar, who jelously kept anything they had or found from the public, and made sure that as many people as possible saw the higher technology (most notably the hyper pusle generator communication tech) as beyond them. I'm not saying that they should slave to the rules here, but I am saying the meat of the settings background and feeling is why a lot of people like the games. Theres also this big feifdom political angle but my fingers are tired already...

[Prower]

Gabriel Bekker, on 19 May 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

You do make an excellent point. However, one of the sticking points of Star League era technology and "Lostech" is that over the time period of the Succession Wars, a huge amount of advanced technology was lost. Wars and the fall of civilizations have been responsible for losses in technology countless times in human history. There is no reason that this could not happen again.

Very true. My only problem with the cannon is the level of technological loss. Some of the technology lost is akin to saying "Because of a major war, we have lost ALL the technology and science to build a basic 12 volt, AA battery permanently and we will now have to restart research on them entirely."

[Nick Makiaveli]

Prower, on 19 May 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

You realize that people like cake right?

I know about the dipersion of humanity. I have read the novels. I did not forget.

Personally, though, I do not believe that the destruction would be near as absolute as many claim it is. In reading the novels, I have found that there are still many, many planets that have a bolstering population. Upon those worlds, technology like TAG, and other such tech, would be found. And, again, in my opinion (Which... really, BattleTech is one giant opinion on the future of the human race.), I think that any military would be hot-on finding and reverse engineering technology that could help them win more. After all, even Comstar can not be everywhere at once. Proved that with the Gray Death Cache, if memory serves.

You do realize it's been hundreds of years since the first Succession War right? So yes, technology was found and was likely put into service by people too short-sighted to realize that it could very well be the last of it's kind.

The NAIS was a novelty for a reason. It was the only one of its kind. Hanse was the first ruler to be willing to divert resources from something that will kill enemies NOW to something that MIGHT kill enemies LATER.

Prower, on 19 May 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Very true. My only problem with the cannon is the level of technological loss. Some of the technology lost is akin to saying "Because of a major war, we have lost ALL the technology and science to build a basic 12 volt, AA battery permanently and we will now have to restart research on them entirely."

Really? That's how you see it? It's more like we lost the ability to make miniaturized solar panels and thus have to rely on 12 volt batteries now.

Edited by Nick Makiaveli, 19 May 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[Gabriel Bekker]

Prower, on 19 May 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Very true. My only problem with the cannon is the level of technological loss. Some of the technology lost is akin to saying "Because of a major war, we have lost ALL the technology and science to build a basic 12 volt, AA battery permanently and we will now have to restart research on them entirely."

The Succession Wars lasted for 300 years, affected thousands of star systems across all of known space, and broke apart a centralized government that ruled all of humanity into half a dozen warring realms. It was an incredibly significant series of events.