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"Elite Only" Custom Mechs


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#121 Haakon Valravn

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 07:21 PM

All I want to know is if I can get a Founders CPLT-K2.

#122 Koshiro Wraith Michaels

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:29 PM

What about this thought?

DISCLAIMER: This is merely conjecture. I have no way of knowing if this is anything close to the reality of the Founder Mech!

So, let's take the Jenner for a moment. We know from the game play videos that they have the Succession Wars classic JR7-D model in the game. Now, at timeline current (3049), the Draconis Combine had just started to deploy a new variant, the JR7-K. The -K model has the same guns, but it has slightly better armor (due to a ferro-fibrous upgrade) and a CASE setup for its SRM ammo. What if, for the Inception mech, they made it the JR7-K? Now, the -K is an objectively better mech than the JR7-D, yes, but what if it was simply them making the JR7-K available to Founders a little earlier and after a short time made the JR7-K available to everyone (minus the C-bill booster)? This seems plausible to me because all the mechs shown have a similar variant to them: The Hunchback HBK-5M, The Catapult CPLT-C2, and the ever-popular Atlas AS7-K*, which, as it just so happens, they've made reverence to in a Mechlab screenshot.

My 2 cents. Do with it as you will

*This particular model does do some slight weapons changes

Edited by Koshiro Wraith Michaels, 27 May 2012 - 08:31 PM.


#123 Draco Argentum

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 12:20 AM

View PostGarth Erlam, on 22 May 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

These will not be vastly superior death machines - they will be on par with other variants; they are merely different not better.



The Operation Inception announcement was very clear that the mechs were not pay to win. Your comment here, Garth, has just muddied the waters. Now we need a clarification. Are the Founder's mechs, or any others for that matter, going to have different weapons, armour, equipment or hardpoints in a way that free mechs can not replicate? Are there going to be significant adjustments to the hitboxes since making the right thing smaller would be advantageous?

I want the preorder Catapault but as a gamer I refuse to buy wins. Equally importantly I don't want to pay to lose. If its just a minor cosmetic change and a c-bill boost I'm happy to pay. If not I'd have to wait some months to let the business model settle before investing money into the game.

#124 Scrawny Cowboy

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 12:32 AM

Like Garth said, they're different. A couple hard points may be swapped around for the different variant. (Doubt they added Omni-hardpoints.) Gave the mechs a few details to the models and new paint scheme.

My only concern is: Is that paint scheme permanent?
Looks fancy from the rest of the mechs but I want my own warpaint. :huh:

Edited by B3RZ3RK3R, 28 May 2012 - 12:37 AM.


#125 Cruxshadow

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 12:36 AM

View PostGeist Null, on 22 May 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

but it has stripes, they make everything faster..

View PostHelmer, on 22 May 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:



It think that's flames. Stripes just makes them look thinner in the mirror, and thus harder to hit.



Cheers.


No, no, no...

Every Mechboy Madboy knows that you paint it red to make it go faster, stripes are to make it hide better, and flames make it more powerful!

Edited by Cruxshadow, 28 May 2012 - 12:37 AM.


#126 Christopher Dayson

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:38 AM

View PostCruxshadow, on 28 May 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

No, no, no...

Every Mechboy Madboy knows that you paint it red to make it go faster, stripes are to make it hide better, and flames make it more powerful!


Kids these days, amirite?

Anyways, I'm not getting into a big long diatribe about hard points being pay to win. It's not. Do some research. I've built tons of mechs and it's just not pay to win with the mechlab system they're using.

If you put 7 ER Large Lasers on a mech, that is taking up 14 crits leaving 24 usable crits for double heat sinks. Which is 12 additional double heat sinks if clan, 8 if inner sphere. 7 ER Large Lasers is 84 heat, which puts you at +40 heat if Clan, +48 heat if Inner Sphere. Which is pretty much insta-shut down.

Besides which there's already known mechs with 7 energy hard points. There won't be mech's with 30 double heat sinks and 7 ER Large Lasers because there just isn't the crits for it. Sorry. Hard Points aren't Pay to Win, ever.

#127 The Crow2k

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:51 AM

I will go out on a Limb here and suggest that the Elite Only Custom Mechs will be similar to the special tanks you can get in WOT from time to time (like the beta tester tank, new year tank etc) so its a one time chance to get them, they earn more & cost less to repair and generally with some of the WOT offerings the tanks they offer up are often quite different configurations to similar standard tanks on their tier.

So not pay to win, more likely something other players will be jealous of.

#128 Tovran

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:56 AM

View PostChristopher Dayson, on 28 May 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:


Kids these days, amirite?

Anyways, I'm not getting into a big long diatribe about hard points being pay to win. It's not. Do some research. I've built tons of mechs and it's just not pay to win with the mechlab system they're using.

If you put 7 ER Large Lasers on a mech, that is taking up 14 crits leaving 24 usable crits for double heat sinks. Which is 12 additional double heat sinks if clan, 8 if inner sphere. 7 ER Large Lasers is 84 heat, which puts you at +40 heat if Clan, +48 heat if Inner Sphere. Which is pretty much insta-shut down.

Besides which there's already known mechs with 7 energy hard points. There won't be mech's with 30 double heat sinks and 7 ER Large Lasers because there just isn't the crits for it. Sorry. Hard Points aren't Pay to Win, ever.



Oh that brings back memories of starting HOLA games in Mech 4 Vengeance and exploding nova cats...

At any rate what I gathered from the announcement was that these mechs simply had a few cosmetic changes, the c-bill booster and the nifty paint job. At most a few hardpoints might be moved about, but from the visuals (at least on the catapult for example) look generally the same as far as I can tell. Perhaps they come preloaded with a non-standard weapons loadout, which would really be a moot point once you get into the mechlab with them anyway.

Also since all the weapons and armour is the same no matter what it is on in mechwarrior and there isn't really "tiers" (although certain mechs may be "better" designs) many balance issues are avoided right there.

#129 Aries13

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:07 AM

They will be just like Premium tanks.....ur Uber Atlas will really be a Lowe. They are not going to make this a pay to win game. Those games never last online.

#130 Akrasjel Lanate

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:15 AM

View PostBanditman, on 22 May 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Keep in mind that Elite mechs are more than just a new paint job. They have improved abilities.

Well that would mean pay2win

#131 Werewolf

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:28 AM

To me, the discussion at the current time is rather moot.
Unless we hear another bit of info on how the Founder 'Mech will work, apart from the bonuses we know of.

#132 Zynk

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:42 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 27 May 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS, AND YOUR WORDS, ALONE.


You need to stop worrying about your post count.

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#133 Harlequin

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:01 PM

View PostAkrasjel Lanate, on 28 May 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Well that would mean pay2win


Usin WOT as an example it might just mean certain abilities/skills just start higher with those mechs. IE: in WoT theres 3 levels of starting crew skill, completely free starts at 50% skill, silver (bought with ingame cash) starts at 75% skill and if you spend gold (real money transactions) you get a crew that starts at 100% skill (allowing them to pick a specialisation straight away instead of having to grind to 100%). In the end it makes not a whole lot of difference because if you start out at 50% or 75% as a F2P player you eventually get to 100% anyway (and in the case of WoT skills go beyond 100% anyway into specialisations), spending the RMT to get 100% start is just a headstart and nothing more.

I am happy if that is the case, wether I get an elite only mech or not.

#134 Serevn

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:13 PM

Where did elite battlemech come from? it says "Founder's Battlemech" specifically.

#135 Cattra Kell

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostSerevn, on 28 May 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Where did elite battlemech come from? it says "Founder's Battlemech" specifically.


I been trying to say this for a bit haha. The only Elite mechs I know of is when you max out variants through play time and gaining EXP.

#136 SuckyJack

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:31 PM

View PostChristopher Dayson, on 28 May 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:


Kids these days, amirite?

Anyways, I'm not getting into a big long diatribe about hard points being pay to win. It's not. Do some research. I've built tons of mechs and it's just not pay to win with the mechlab system they're using.

If you put 7 ER Large Lasers on a mech, that is taking up 14 crits leaving 24 usable crits for double heat sinks. Which is 12 additional double heat sinks if clan, 8 if inner sphere. 7 ER Large Lasers is 84 heat, which puts you at +40 heat if Clan, +48 heat if Inner Sphere. Which is pretty much insta-shut down.

Besides which there's already known mechs with 7 energy hard points. There won't be mech's with 30 double heat sinks and 7 ER Large Lasers because there just isn't the crits for it. Sorry. Hard Points aren't Pay to Win, ever.


Hardpoints can be Pay2Win. Take an Atlas but shift one ballistic hardpoint from the RT to the LT. Crit space has just become less of a concern for those ballistic hardpoints since they aren't sharing from the same pool, even if it is 'balanced' by the loss of it's missile hardpoints. If you can get that variant only by buying it with real money then builds are allowed that cannot be matched by free players.

If the free version of a Jenner has only 2 energy hardpoints per arm but a premium only Jenner has 3 but gives up the missile hardpoints then you can squeeze in 2 large lasers with a bit of minimal sacrifices.

Different builds allow mechs to perform differently, have different advantages and disadvantages. When some of that flexibility is premium only then the game becomes Pay2Win as degrees of advantages are only available to those that pay for it.

The flaws behind looking at hardpoints and claiming that Crit Space keeps it from pay2win is that not all hardpoints are created equal and Crit space isn't the limiting factor for everything. Yes, putting on an extreme of high heat energy weapons makes it impossible to have enough double heatsinks due to crit space. But am I wrong to remember that normal heatsinks don't take crits? Am I wrong to remember that heat management is an important skill since most effective mech designs don't run perfectly at 0 heat? Am I wrong to remember that the game doesn't boil down to slug fests firing your weapons as fast as you can constantly?

I remember your examples and they were chosen extremes using heat as the measure with only considering neutral heat builds. You even went as far to compare 0 heat at standstill on the Free mech to the 0 heat at RUNNING on the Premium mech, then claiming that the Pay2Win mech cannot be built because of crit limits.

Hardpoints aren't about quantity, they are about quality. The amount of crits in that section are shared among all hardpoints in that section. Moving hardpoints from one section to another changes the value of those hardpoints as well as the hardpoints that are in both sections being affected. Ballistic hardpoints tend to have the 1st hardpoint in a section worth more than a 2nd as ballistic weapons tend to be heavily limited by their crit and tonnage requirements. On the flip side, the 2nd hardpoint tends to be worth more than the first for both missile and energy hardpoints as those weapons tend to be light on crit and tonnage usage.

It's not how many hardpoints that make different hardpoint layouts pay2win, it's what you can do with them. Being able to optimize a build differently means being able to squeeze out tonnes and crits different ways, ways that can have a different impact on playstyles. Locking the advantage of being able to play those layouts to premium players only is pay2win as the choices made in the mechlab have a direct impact on gameplay, it creates advantages and disadvantages. Since equal teams win or lose by the thinnest of margins this will tilt the scale in favor of those that pay when facing those that do not.

Edited by SuckyJack, 28 May 2012 - 06:34 PM.


#137 CW Grayson

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 09:50 PM

Seems people aren't getting the point we fear from Garth' post, maybe it was just unclear and we get a better statement soon.

"These will not be vastly superior death machines - they will be on par with other variants; they are merely different not better."

Anyway, as it is now, the founder mechs ARE variants different from the stock ones. That means, you can build loadouts that can NOT be build with the stock variants.
I find it hard to say at the current state of the game they cannot be better but only different. Even swapping around some hardpoints or changing a ballistic- to a energy-hardpoint can make a difference.
Of course the founder-mechs will be not locked out of customisation, that would make them lesser usable than stock variants and make all founder buyers mad.
So if i cannot build the exact same mech with a stock chassis (looks aside) then that is already some sort of pay2win for me.

#138 Zynk

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 08:24 PM

View PostSerevn, on 28 May 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Where did elite battlemech come from? it says "Founder's Battlemech" specifically.


READ THE FOLLOWING HI-LITED PART;

MONTREAL - May 22, 2012 - Calling all MechWarrior® fans! An exclusive MechWarrior Online™ Founder’s Program goes on sale June 19th. It will offer die-hard fans of this beloved franchise valuable benefits including: in-game currency, a custom BattleMech™ ("ELITE" level only), up to a two-month free premium account, a permanent "Founder’s Tag" and more. Dubbed "OPERATION INCEPTION," the Founder’s program gives fans a limited one-time chance to secure exclusive MechWarrior Online game content via two ranks:

LINK

#139 Scrawny Cowboy

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 01:47 AM

Isn't this assuming that they'll create non-canon variants?

I think Dev's use of "Elite Level" is when a variant that comes standard with upgraded equipment/weapons. Such as the Atlas 7-K from a mechlab screenshot posted on the MW:O Facebook page. (http://www.facebook....&type=1)
I dunno if that particular variant would be considered the "Elite Level" but it does come with considerable upgrades. And likewise it will reflect that in C-bills.

So in the matter concerning the hardpoints, the Dev's will most certainly only change them if the alternative canon variants have different weapons requiring that change.

#140 Gauge

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 02:17 AM

View PostZynk, on 29 May 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:


READ THE FOLLOWING HI-LITED PART;

MONTREAL - May 22, 2012 - Calling all MechWarrior® fans! An exclusive MechWarrior Online™ Founder’s Program goes on sale June 19th. It will offer die-hard fans of this beloved franchise valuable benefits including: in-game currency, a custom BattleMech™ ("ELITE" level only), up to a two-month free premium account, a permanent "Founder’s Tag" and more. Dubbed "OPERATION INCEPTION," the Founder’s program gives fans a limited one-time chance to secure exclusive MechWarrior Online game content via two ranks:

LINK

Right, a custom "Founder's Battlemech", and it only comes with the Elite level package. One package is Elite, the other is Veteran. The Founder's Battlemech only comes in the Elite one. It's not referencing the mech as being elite, though frankly, I don't care which one you call it, it's just semantics.





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