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Removal Of Linked Fire, Just A Thought.


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#1 Sayyid

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:24 AM

I was thinking on the way into work this morning that in the TT and in the novels no one fired 4 med lasers and they hit the exact same spot and did so much damage that it melted away a ton of armor. They had to cycle through the smaller weapons, which meant it was uncommon for them to hit the exact same spot with the other weapons on that group.

So my suggestion, more thought is, why not remove linked fire and keep the cycle mode.

This will give the KICK back to the big weapons like PPCs, AC/20s, and Guass Rifles.

The issue is right now why would I take a PPC when I can take 2 Medium Lasers and do the same damage for less heat and less range. Or just take 4 medium lasers and do twice the damage and 50% more heat but I can pack 3 heatsinks on top of them.

Just a thought.

TLDR;
Remove group fire, keep cylce fire mode.

#2 Kaijin

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:28 AM

Except the alpha strike is very prominent in the lore.

#3 PANZERBUNNY

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:31 AM

Nothing wrong with alpha strike.

You pay for it dearly in heat.

#4 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:35 AM

View PostKaijin, on 07 January 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Except the alpha strike is very prominent in the lore.

The "alpha strike" in the table top is just firing all weapons in a timeframe of 10 seconds. That could just be firing each weapon with a 0.25 second delay between each other.
And even if they are all fired at the same time, there is no indication that all weapons are aimed or hitting at the exact same spot (the rules certainly don't support it, I don't know about lore descriptions).

#5 Sayyid

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:39 AM

View PostKaijin, on 07 January 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Except the alpha strike is very prominent in the lore.


Show me in lore where all of the weapons hit the sametime in the same place.

Most of the time they did exactly as MustrumRidcully stated.

#6 CG Oglethorpe Kerensky

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:39 AM

Yes this is a problem and the clans will make it far worse, UAC/20s anyone?

A bit of fluff from the novels should help...if implemented.
Autocannons should fire a 3-5 round burst rather than a single shell.
Guass Rifles should fire sequentially.

#7 FerretGR

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:41 AM

I don't think forcing chain fire is the answer. Personally, I don't think this is a big issue... with both mechs moving and humans being what they are, the pinpoint damage we're all talking about is a myth to a certain extent anyhow. But if people are really hung up on it, perhaps a little variance could be added to the accuracy. Not difficult to implement... fire a magazine or two into a wall in a game like COD and you'll see that they have implemented a little bit or random spread.

#8 kilgor

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:44 AM

Where in the lore is it very prominent? If it was prominent, you would read about everyone doing it all the time. It was usually a last ditch effort because you had the potential to cause ammo explosions or a weapon meltdown. Just look at the standard specs of 'Mechs in the technical readouts. They couldn't handle doing continuous alpha strikes and in any major battle, even in this game, causing your 'Mech to shutdown from overheating is detrimental to your 'Mech's survival.

Read about Mechwarrior Rodney Van Kleven. He loses land grants due to overheating.
http://www.solaris7....Info.asp?ID=519


The only time I've read about alpha strikes to any degree is with vehicles, such as with the Schrek PPC carrier, but then they had to have the exact number of heat sinks to fire those weapons.

Edited by kilgor, 07 January 2013 - 05:59 AM.


#9 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:48 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 07 January 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

The "alpha strike" in the table top is just firing all weapons in a timeframe of 10 seconds. That could just be firing each weapon with a 0.25 second delay between each other.
And even if they are all fired at the same time, there is no indication that all weapons are aimed or hitting at the exact same spot (the rules certainly don't support it, I don't know about lore descriptions).

Must, I agree with what you are saying, but translating fiction to sim game doesn't always work, much as TT to Sim. Plus the 10 second "turn" is a handwavium mechanic for the TT game. 10 seconds does not seem like a lot of time when you take 10-15 minuted to complete one half of a turn.

#10 Deamhan

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:51 AM

While the TT is a base, there is a line of video games to follow as well. The issue between taking a couple of one type to do the same dmg while generating less heat over one of another type is a matter of balance within the game.

Oh and 1 turn is 10 seconds. I think this is far too long though and doesn't translate to real time mechanics. Think about it, in D&D and WoD (I haven't played BT) 1 turn is 10 sec as well. Yet in one turn, fighting one on one, me and the enemy get one attack each? Assuming that we take turns attacking (something that is not always the case IRL) you are looking at 2 sec per attack tops. What do we do with the remaining 6 sec? Stare at each other?

The time mechanic of TT is unrealistic and therefore does not translate to real time games well at all.

There are also other reasons to taking 4 med over one ppc. Not putting all your eggs in one basket. Lose the arm, lose the ppc or lose the arm, lose only one med laser and still attack with 3. You also might not have the slots available on a single appendage for a ppc.

#11 Pr8Dator

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:51 AM

In TT, if you fire more than one weapon at once "link fired", each weapon hits a different random location instead of converging on one point. As such, carrying 2 Med Las in TT can never give you the same single location hit of 10 damage as a PPC can. But I think convergence and link fire makes more sense once translated into a PC game.

Edited by Pr8Dator, 07 January 2013 - 05:52 AM.


#12 Sayyid

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:56 AM

View PostFerretGR, on 07 January 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

I don't think forcing chain fire is the answer. Personally, I don't think this is a big issue... with both mechs moving and humans being what they are, the pinpoint damage we're all talking about is a myth to a certain extent anyhow. But if people are really hung up on it, perhaps a little variance could be added to the accuracy. Not difficult to implement... fire a magazine or two into a wall in a game like COD and you'll see that they have implemented a little bit or random spread.


That would mean addition of a "Cone of Fire" which I know wont go over well here at all.

It may seem likea myth, but trueth is I with my Razer Naga set on high DPS sensitivity and everything running smoothly on my rig (30-40+FPS), I can hit any large area of a mech with ease. I know I can pin point my shots repeatedly on the legs or side torsos of most mechs without any splash on other areas. The Catapult is a bit of a pain to hit its side torsos from the front but it is possible.

#13 BDU Havoc

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:57 AM

Did someone stand still and die to an alpha strike?

#14 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:57 AM

View PostPr8Dator, on 07 January 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

In TT, if you fire more than one weapon at once "link fired", each weapon hits a different random location instead of converging on one point. As such, carrying 2 Med Las in TT can never give you the same single location hit of 10 damage as a PPC can. But I think convergence and link fire makes more sense once translated into a PC game.

because TT wasn't simulating reality closely enough. And don't say never. I had a few players who could roll 5,6 & 7 with dramatic consistency.

#15 Sayyid

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:07 AM

View PostDeamhan, on 07 January 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

While the TT is a base, there is a line of video games to follow as well. The issue between taking a couple of one type to do the same dmg while generating less heat over one of another type is a matter of balance within the game.

Oh and 1 turn is 10 seconds. I think this is far too long though and doesn't translate to real time mechanics. Think about it, in D&D and WoD (I haven't played BT) 1 turn is 10 sec as well. Yet in one turn, fighting one on one, me and the enemy get one attack each? Assuming that we take turns attacking (something that is not always the case IRL) you are looking at 2 sec per attack tops. What do we do with the remaining 6 sec? Stare at each other?

The time mechanic of TT is unrealistic and therefore does not translate to real time games well at all.

There are also other reasons to taking 4 med over one ppc. Not putting all your eggs in one basket. Lose the arm, lose the ppc or lose the arm, lose only one med laser and still attack with 3. You also might not have the slots available on a single appendage for a ppc.


I have played both WoD (Werewolf:The Appocolypse and Hunted and Hunters) and I have played D&D. And both its not one attack, well in Werewolf you can definately do more than one attack, and if I recall its not 10sec turns in that, it was 5 seconds I think, but it has been a while. D&D it is stated it is a flurry or group of attacks that cause damage not one massive swing that takes 10sec to complete.

In the TT the original intent was not to say you can only fire once every 10seconds, but you only could line up a decent shot every 10seconds that was worth taking a chance on fireing. There were rules for shorter turns where you had MUCH higher rates of fire, and generated considerably more heat.

View PostPr8Dator, on 07 January 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

In TT, if you fire more than one weapon at once "link fired", each weapon hits a different random location instead of converging on one point. As such, carrying 2 Med Las in TT can never give you the same single location hit of 10 damage as a PPC can. But I think convergence and link fire makes more sense once translated into a PC game.


Convergance would be interesting but this would lead to some real issues if you get inside of said convergance range or you get outside of it. Say you have it set for 300m, then if youre inside of that distance you have a chance of your shots going around the target.

While I would love to see this come into game, and it would answer the age old fluff question on why every weapon has a different range table instead of ONE table like Aerotech does.

#16 Agent of Change

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:10 AM

the problem is not how many weapons you can fire at once but the universal automatic convergence of weapons that turn boated small lasers (for example) into more damage efficient weapons than the larger weapons that should be user for that purpose.

I think skill should play a large part int eh game, I think aim should matter I also think that when firing multiple weapons simultaneously only one of them should actually hit exactly where you aimed and the rest should have some deviation from that point, but that is just me.

Edited by Agent of Change, 07 January 2013 - 06:11 AM.


#17 Kaijin

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:10 AM

There was a thread created some time ago in the 'Suggestions' area of the forums concerning doing away with the pinpoint control everyone seems to have of the clearly non-gimballed direct-fire torso weapons on their mechs. If your torso crosshairs were on target and red, you'd hit with everything you fired, but the the hit location would be random. Only arm-mounted weapons would be able to be aimed with any accuracy.

I thought the idea had merit.

Some staffer didn't, and the thread disappeared without a trace only a day or so after it was created.

#18 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:18 AM

I think one of the best ways to lower the general prevalance of alpha striking without having to remove convergence or linked fire would be to lower the heat capacity of mechs. Instead of 30 + heat sinks, make it, say 15 + 1/2 heat sinks. To compensate, raise the heat dissipation of mechs. The result will be that you are actually better able to run a 6 PPC mech if you want, but you can't alpha your 6 PPCs - you must chain fire them to give your mech time to cool off. In the longer run, you can still sustain your PPC's full rate of fire, but in the first 5 seconds or so of an engagement, mechs will inflict less damage.

#19 BDU Havoc

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:40 AM

I don't know about the rest of you, but I very rarely die to 1 cored out location with the rest of my 'Mech relatively unscathed.

Part of the skill of this game isn't just about shooting, it's about spreading damage around, using the terrain to make your positions change, being unpredictable.

Granted, this is more difficult in the larger, more cumbersome 'Mechs but it's still not impossible.

#20 MadSavage

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:43 AM

Rarely do all your weapons hit exactly one spot, that only happens if both you and the target are standing still at close range facing each other. If that's the case, it wouldn't take a very high roll in TT to get massive damage on the enemy.





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