102 replies to this topic

[FerretGR]

Sayyid, on 07 January 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Then you missunderstood my post.

I think you misunderstood mine, if you think your rationalizing will convince me you've got a point with regard to stereotyping gamers or forum residents.

Sayyid, on 07 January 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

But this is completely off topic and has nothing to do with the thread, if you would kindly stay on topic or go elsewhere and discuss this.

Many threads around these parts demonstrate elitism or ageism or whatever other stereotype you'd like. The thread where the BS was stated is typically the best place for that... I've posted a separate thread about the bad behavior I see around here with regard to disrespect and whatnot, but I don't think it's any more appropriate to post a new thread about that every time it occurs than it is to post every day about DHS or the lag shield or what have you. That said, given that you're the OP and you've asked me to end the derail, I'll respect your wishes.

Edited by FerretGR, 07 January 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[Sayyid]

So in short, to sum up the thread so far.

Convergance is a more accaptable idea then removing linked fire.

[NocturnalBeast]

Can't, "Linked" fire has been in ever first person Mechwarrior game, it would not be Mechwarrior without it.

[Aldon]

This is not the tabletop game. You want the lagshield fast mechs to be even harder to kill? It goes against even fantasy logic that this giant mech can't aim and fire weapons more than one at a time.

[malibu43]

In general I like the idea of adding a more "random" element to the accuracy of weapons, especially grouped ones. To be honest, I've never played TT or read any of the books, but I've seen snipets of storys on the internet and it always sounds like the weapons are not nearly as accurate as they are when we put our mouse over a target and fire. Maybe this is due to fact that we use a mouse and not a HOTAS or whatever "real" mechwarriors use. Of course, adding whatever random element it ends up being would have to be done carefully so it doesn't become frustrating, or, as someone else put it, infuriating. I can imagine getting frustrated when I put my reticule over the center torso, click, and the weapon hits the right leg. WTF? It takes things out of the players hands.

I'd imagine the increased accuracy we have is one of the reasons the devs double armor values. It would be interesting* to see how it plays out with armor values at 1:1, but remove torso convergence, reduce arm convergence, and add some "cone of fire" element to things.

* please note I said "interesting to try", not "devs are dumb this is how it should be."

[Sayyid]

quasihuman, on 07 January 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Can't, "Linked" fire has been in ever first person Mechwarrior game, it would not be Mechwarrior without it.

Actually it wasnt.
The first Mechwarrior had linked fire but they didnt hit in the same place. There was a convergance setting that randomly changed it seemed like. I have an emulator that lets me run the original Mechwarrior on my computer. It's the ONLY Mechwarrior game I enjoyed, because it's the only Mechwarrior that was close to the table top version and yet still fun outside of the Multiplayer Battletech games saddly enough.

Aldon, on 07 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

This is not the tabletop game. You want the lagshield fast mechs to be even harder to kill? It goes against even fantasy logic that this giant mech can't aim and fire weapons more than one at a time.

I can see you two didnt bother to read the post above.

There was a convergance setting in game that was removed for some magical reason that only PGI knows.

[MaddMaxx]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 January 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

No.

It's not an elegant solution at all IMO, it's an unecesary complex and bizarre solution to a problem that typically has a very different underlying problem. For example, that convergence itself may be problematic, that table top weapon stats were balanced assuming that each weapon would need its own hit-location roll, and that some weapons are just too good on their own which is why they are boated - so you get the maximum effect of their overpowered advantages.

So you feel that adding an RNG for hit location is the solution then?

[Khobai]

The problem is convergence. When you fire a bunch of medium lasers they instantly converge on the same spot which is WRONG. There should be at least a half-second delay for lasers to converge every time you fire them.

[Ricama]

This will not cause the change you think it will cause. I can say this with certainty because fundamental changes to game mechanics always have unforeseen consequences. The obvious effects happen, then gamers quickly adapt and then usually discover they can do something worse, or people discover an extra restriction from the change that doesn't affect everyone equally. There is already a partial penalty to alphastriking with SRMs, they go everywhere unless you can get them in a sweet spot.

[Agent of Change]

MaddMaxx, on 07 January 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

So you feel that adding an RNG for hit location is the solution then?

It needn't be so black and white. there could easily be an algorithm that dictates that a weapon can deviate up to X amount from the cross hairs based on a number of factors (such as firer speed and number of weapons firing). This wouldn't be an RNG for hit location as aim would still matter, however if would require accounting for more factors when trying to make hyper accurate shots. And even then you could mitigate it, hit dead center of CT you would likely have no shots deviate off the CT however aim off to the side or at the head and you'd be more likely to spread your shots around to several locations when unloading a bunch or ordinance.

This i believe is the "cone" idea.

Edited by Agent of Change, 07 January 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Sayyid,

What weapons do you thing hit at one point that shouldn't be? Understand your response is going to be argued with real world physics applying to weapons like the A/C's; The Gauss; PPC's; and Pulse Lasers. Each of those fire fast enough to justify hitting one location while movement of either or both mechs. The other two types of weapons: lasers and missiles obviously work differently. The only time lasers will hit one spot is when both the target and the shooter are not moving. And missiles whether they're grouped between 2-6-10 or 20 will never hit the exact same spot.

[malibu43]

I was just thinking a way the "cone of fire" or convergence thing could be made to work. The best example I can think of is the original Ghost Recon. The cross hairs on the screen would expand or shrink depending on the players movement. Sprinting across a field? They were huge. If you fired, your shot would go anywhere in there. Creeping down a hallway? They were much smaller. Laying prone? They were more or less a single pixel.

It would be interesting to try it in MWO. Maybe the speed and heat of the mech affect the cone of fire. So a sprinting, brawling mech will be less accurate than a stationary mech further away... Of course, speaking of further away, maybe the cone of fire could grow exponentially (but differently for different weapons, mostly ballistics) to make sniping less appealing.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Khobai, on 07 January 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

The problem is convergence. When you fire a bunch of medium lasers they instantly converge on the same spot which is WRONG. There should be at least a half-second delay for lasers to converge every time you fire them.

That's what linked fire does, in order to save on a small amount of heat. If you link 4 laser pointers together to activate on one button push that's what happens, all four fire at once. Unless you add a small computer component to change that. Just the same as in game.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 07 January 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[Sayyid]

KuruptU4Fun, on 07 January 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Sayyid,

What weapons do you thing hit at one point that shouldn't be? Understand your response is going to be argued with real world physics applying to weapons like the A/C's; The Gauss; PPC's; and Pulse Lasers. Each of those fire fast enough to justify hitting one location while movement of either or both mechs. The other two types of weapons: lasers and missiles obviously work differently. The only time lasers will hit one spot is when both the target and the shooter are not moving. And missiles whether they're grouped between 2-6-10 or 20 will never hit the exact same spot.

Ok lets look at the AWE-8Q Awesome, 3PPCs 1 in each torso and one in the right arm.

Yet I can automagicly hit the same point on a mech with all three PPCs while at a full run at 540m, 400m, 300m, 200m, and 100m. There is no convergence setting, so they automaticaly converge on the same point regardless of range, movement or speed.

Come to think of it, this isnt even possible with todays weapon systems. We cant fire two fixed weapon systems and hit the same point on a target that is changing ranges every so many seconds. This would require every weapon system to be mounted on a small gimbal to allow it to move indipendantly of the rest of the vehicle.

Edited by Sayyid, 07 January 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

That's what linked fire does, in order to save on a small amount of heat. If you link 4 laser pointers together to activate on one button push that's what happens, all four fire at once. Unless you add a small computer component to change that. Just the same as in game.

I understand that. But they should not all hit the same spot instantly. There should be a convergence delay of at least a half second. So it should take a half second for the lasers to converge on your reticle.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Because that's what the targeting computer is designed to do, the only way that changes is when the mouse is moved and the targeting computer that controls the arms moves faster than the one that governs the torso.

Khobai, on 07 January 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

I understand that. But they should not all hit the same spot instantly. There should be a convergence delay of at least a half second. So it should take a half second for the lasers to converge on your reticle.

You guys aren't talking about convergence to which the definition is: the degree or point at which lines, objects, etc., converge. What you guys are talking about is timing.

[Havyek]

There is no need to add some convergence or some magical RNG for random hit locations.

Add more movement to the 'Mechs.

When a 'Mech is running around at full speed, have the target reticule (both arms and torso) bounce around with the gait of the 'Mech.

Lights would be short movements, quickly up and down.
Assaults would be slower, longer up and down.
Mediums and heavies would be in between light/assault in terms of speed and movement.

Standing still? Sure let every weapon you fire hit the same location. Guess who's a target screaming "SHOOT ME IN THE FACE!!"

[KuruptU4Fun]

BDU Havoc, on 07 January 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

There is no need to add some convergence or some magical RNG for random hit locations.

Add more movement to the 'Mechs.

When a 'Mech is running around at full speed, have the target reticule (both arms and torso) bounce around with the gait of the 'Mech.

Lights would be short movements, quickly up and down.
Assaults would be slower, longer up and down.
Mediums and heavies would be in between light/assault in terms of speed and movement.

Standing still? Sure let every weapon you fire hit the same location. Guess who's a target screaming "SHOOT ME IN THE FACE!!"

That's part of what the gyro stabilizer in the CT is designed to negate.

[Taemien]

They fixed the issue in closed beta. They doubled the armor values. Removing group fire would mean a relook at armor and then balancing would be back to square one. I'm going to disagree with taking that approach. Right now the weapons are working well, I'm seeing all weapon systems except PPCs, AC10s, Mguns, and Flamers being used on a regular basis. Lets see about getting them in line instead.

[malibu43]

KuruptU4Fun, on 07 January 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

... What you guys are talking about is timing.

... of convergence.

Let's say I have a torso mounted laser and an arm mounted laser on linked fire. I have my reticule one pixel to the left of an atlas that's 100m away, so that my reticule is on some distant rock 1000m away. The two laers are currently set to converge (lets assume for a second that the torso mounted laser has some ability to move and aim independently of the torso) at 1000m. The instant I move my mouse 1 pixel to the right so it's over the atlas, the lasers are now aimed to converge 100m away.

I don't know what kind of tech they have in this imaginary future, but that instant change in convergence seems a little fast. Not only does new convergence need to be calculated, but there would need to be time for each weapon to move and aim.

You could take it one step further and say that the torso weapons don't move independently of the torso, and they should never converge. 2 laser fired from my left and right torso should stay a torso's width apart forever...

edit - Yes I understand this would require rebalancing the game and armor values. I'm not suggesting they do that. This is just for the sake of discussion.

Edited by malibu43, 07 January 2013 - 11:43 AM.