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The necessity of having triggers for each weapon group


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#1 zorak ramone

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:20 AM

One of the best innovations of MW4 was the ability to assign a different trigger to each weapon group. This was the first, but not final, step toward making mixed weapon configurations viable in comparison to single weapon configurations. MWO needs to have at least this capability.

Lets look at the Atlas to see why.

The Atlas has 4xML, AC20, LRM20, and SRM6. Each of these four groups of weapons are aimed and fired in different ways: lasers are aimed directly, but held on target, AC20 requires leading, but one trigger pull, LRMs require a lock and then fire and SRM6 requires leading and a single trigger pull, but more leading than the AC20. Therefore, in order to properly aim each weapon, you need to have a separate trigger pull for each weapon.

This isn't a big problem with the LRM20. The Atlas doesn't have anything else to use at range, so you would just switch to the LRM20 group when fighting at range. However, the 4xML, AC20 and SRM6 overlap each other's range profile exactly. Therfore, in order to maximize the effectiveness of the Atlas's weapons, you need to be firing all three when fighting up close. This requires an extra button press for each weapon, and doesn't allow you to fire all three at once quickly if the opportunity provides itself (say, you suddenly bump into a mech when you turn a corner).

This puts the Atlas at a disadvantage against other mechs at that range that use only one or two different weapon groups and would put pressure on Atlas owners to simplify their configurations (like, say, dropping the SRM6 for more MLs if the Atlas is given more energy hardpoints). We've seen that the CPLT-K2 can theoretically mount 6xML or 2xLL, 4xML. Assuming that the CPLT has the heat sinks to use these, the CPLT is at a huge advantage over the atlas. It only needs one trigger and only needs to aim once. All of its shots will hit the same location. The Atlas on the other hand has to aim 3 times, and take the time to switch weapon groups.

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I propose that triggers for individual weapon groups be added. This won't change the fact that different types of weapons will need to be aimed differently, but it will take away the necessity to switch groups constantly and therefore allow the mixed weapon user to fire all weapons at will. There are a couple of ways to do this:

MW4 Method:
Just have a different trigger button available for each weapon group. This works, but might be a problem for mouse users.

FPS Mode, groups of groups and alt fire:
In most FPS's you switch weapons with the numbers, fire with M1 and may have alt fire with M2. This is essentially like selecting weapons groups, but in this case you have two triggers for each group. Imagine this setup for the Atlas:
-Press 1: M1 = LRM20, M2 = 4xML (range fighting, with lasers in case something gets close)
-Press 2: M1 = AC20 + SRM6, M2 = 4xML (infighting, assuming that AC20 and SRM6 lead is close enough to be on one trigger
-Press 3: M1 = AC20, M2 = SRM6 (infighting for when you start to overheat)

I don't know how to implement this, but maybe in this mode pair groups 1 and 2, 3 and 4 and 5 and 6. When you press 1, 2 or 3 on the number pad, mosue 1 because group 1, 3, or 5 and mouse 2 becomes group 2, 4 or 6 (respectively). This would reduce the amount of triggers you need down to 2 and would be a familiar setup for most players.

#2 infinite xaer0

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:27 AM

...or you could buy a mouse with more than 3 buttons; that's the solution that i'm going to take

#3 Vexgrave Lars

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:37 AM

View Postinfinite xaer0, on 24 May 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

...or you could buy a mouse with more than 3 buttons; that's the solution that i'm going to take


Works great for me in MWLL

#4 Gun Bear

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:37 AM

I just used my scroll wheel to cycle groups it always worked for me.

#5 Redshift2k5

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:44 AM

There are up to six weapon groups one can assign, and you can change them on the fly with the arrow keys. Se Dev blog 5 for more! http://mwomercs.com/...warfare-part-i/

Take a peek at this screenshot of the week to see how an Atlas pilot has set up his weapon groups:

Posted Image

#6 zorak ramone

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:05 PM

*sigh*

So it seems like nobody read the post, or completely missed the point of the post.

View Postinfinite xaer0, on 24 May 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

...or you could buy a mouse with more than 3 buttons; that's the solution that i'm going to take


Obviously.

The point of the post is that I should be able to assign those three buttons to three different weapons groups. As it stands, we don't have any confirmation or indication from the devs that we will be able to do this. As far as we know, there is one trigger button, and you must manually switch between groups.

View PostGun Bear, on 24 May 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

I just used my scroll wheel to cycle groups it always worked for me.

View PostRedshift2k5, on 24 May 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

There are up to six weapon groups one can assign, and you can change them on the fly with the arrow keys. Se Dev blog 5 for more! http://mwomercs.com/...warfare-part-i/

Take a peek at this screenshot of the week to see how an Atlas pilot has set up his weapon groups:


And you two missed the point of the post.

I am aware of how weapons groups are set up and how to switch between them. What I'm saying is that haveing to switch between weapons groups puts mechs like the Atlas (which can not group all of its weapons together due to different aiming properties) at a disadvantage relative to mechs like the Awesome or a laser-modified K2 that can (all PPCs in one case, all lasers in the other).

What I'm saying is that you should be able to assign each group a trigger, as you could in MW4. This would eliminated the weapon group switching disadvantage. As it stands, there is no indication that we will be able to do this. from the very link that you posted:

Quote

The 1-6 keys are used for weapon groups. Weapon groups or clusters of weapons can be assigned to each key so not all weapons fire at once. Properly setting up weapon groups is paramount to maintaining the BattleMech’s heat management operations.
Once the player has assigned weapon groups, they can cycle which weapons are fired when each key is pressed. Imagine if you will, a series of Medium Lasers assigned to keys 1-3. Tapping each key in succession with a slight pause between each will allow a player to continuously fire Medium Lasers while keeping heat levels at a manageable level.


A system like this will tilt the game in favor of weapon boats (one group of a single type of weapon) or mechs with two types of weapons (one group of long range weapons of a single type, one group of short range weapons of a single type). Mechs like the atlas in stock config (multiple types of weapons for a single range of engagement) will be at a disadvantage and will eventually go away.

#7 ManDaisy

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:20 PM

I hear ya. I also hate the weapons grouping as they are right now. If we ever get any weapons we have to hold the trigger down for, having to switch back and for between group and not being able to fire them directly will be hell. I wonder how pulse lasers will be handled.

Edited by ManDaisy, 24 May 2012 - 12:21 PM.


#8 FinnMcKool

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:34 PM

they need to use different colors for different modes .

make it clear to player what weapon or weapons hes about to fire ,and what fireing mode your in.

I have been saying this since my first few posts , Mechwarrior 2 did this well , but non , let me say it again not mech 3, 4 , BT3025, mwLL
did it as well , the best fix was not to use more than 2 ranges of weapons or just use Alpha strike all the time.

the answer is simple , use colors !!!!!!!!!
different colors so a quick look tells me where My weapons are at.

#9 That Guy

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:41 PM

hmm, OP it seems we pulled exactly opposite information from that same dev post.

from what i gathered it seems that keys 1-6 ARE triggers (similar the the MWLL/MW4 method), and not selector tabs.

the method you seem to be against (push to select group, ala MW3) is actually the method i was hoping for. i find it easier to play using only a single trigger, and other buttons to change groups (i guess its something i picked up from battlefield heroes, rapidly switching primary weapons in the heat of combat).

The map out i was hoping for is 1-3 select weapon group, wile 4,5 are triggers (things like missiles) leaving my extra mouse buttons for things like fire selected group, free-look, zoom, push to talk etc

in the end I hope that all methods are viable, group select and group trigger.

#10 XTRMNTR2K

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 01:20 PM

I support what OP said, though I'm fairly certain the devs have already thought of something this important. I'm almost a 100% positive that both methods (separate triggers / single trigger with group pre-selection) will be available in the game.

Pre-selecting with a single-trigger is so outdated IMHO and one of the many reasons I could never quite enjoy MWLL. It's been separate triggers for me ever since MW4 using an MS Sidewinder Precision Pro 2 (though I did of course play MW3 using a KB+Mouse setup).

Besides being more comfortable for me I just wouldn't want all those buttons on my G940 to go to waste. :D

#11 Belisarius1

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 03:54 PM

I'm almost certain they confirmed this functionality a while back. Maybe in the mechanics reveal?

I agree it's really important, but I do think it's already in. Even in the playtest videos, you can see the hunchback pilot triggering his AC5 while bursting MG/lasers, which shouldn't be possible if the system was group-by-group fire.

#12 Roland

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 04:13 PM

Ya, I used to run all 6 weapons groups in MW4, mainly to give me more control over chainfiring.

You kind of need to be able to control firing groups more than in most games, because different groups are going to have significant impacts on how the mech functions due to heat buildup and stuff. There will be times when you want to unload everything, and times when you want to ease back a bit so that you don't overheat.

#13 TigersRoar

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:38 AM

Use a good HOTAS setup and you should have no problems binding every weapon group to a different trigger. I'm looking at their newest HOTAS, the Warthog but I already own their Cougar with foot pedals.

#14 MaddMaxx

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:14 AM

Agreed. Even my old Sidewinder has a Main trigger, four secondary buttons useable as groups triggers and the ability to click another button on the Hat to jump groups so I can use just the Primary trigger.

Mix and match configs like that should and, I am hopeful, will be in, for the Joystick users at least.

#15 Dmitri Ravenoff

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 05:46 PM

I usually only ran 3 weapon groups for my weapons systems.

However, I usually only ran 3-4 different types of weapons at varying ranges.
Primarily ER Large Lasers, Gauss Rifles (or AC-20's), and ER Medium Lasers (and the occasional SSRM pack).

Even back when I used my old Sidewinder Pro, 3 groups usually did just fine: Long range (energy), Short range (energy +/- missiles), and Ballistic (long or short range depending on what I have equipped).

#16 Zakatak

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 06:27 PM

I have a pretty decent plan for my Saitek X52.

Trigger, First Click - Group 1
Button C - Group 2
Fire Button - Group 3
Trigger, Second Click - Alpha Strike

I haven't ever needed more then 3 fire groups.

#17 SideSt3p

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 05:53 AM

I'd say they've already thought of this. They had this already set up in previous MechWarrior games and I'm willing to be you can configure this in your Key Bindings when you actually get to play MWO. Gotta give the devs some credit...

#18 Redshift2k5

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 07:50 AM

The devblog is worded to support the idea that keys 1-6 are triggers

Once the player has assigned weapon groups, they can cycle which weapons are fired when each key is pressed. Imagine if you will, a series of Medium Lasers assigned to keys 1-3. Tapping each key in succession with a slight pause between each will allow a player to continuously fire Medium Lasers while keeping heat levels at a manageable level.

#19 Owl Cutter

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:33 PM

View PostThat Guy, on 24 May 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

hmm, OP it seems we pulled exactly opposite information from that same dev post.

from what i gathered it seems that keys 1-6 ARE triggers (similar the the MWLL/MW4 method), and not selector tabs.

the method you seem to be against (push to select group, ala MW3)  is actually the method i was hoping for. i find it easier to play using only a single trigger, and other buttons to change groups (i guess its something i picked up from battlefield heroes, rapidly switching primary weapons in the heat of combat).

The map out i was hoping for is 1-3 select weapon group, wile 4,5 are triggers (things like missiles) leaving my extra mouse buttons for things like fire selected group, free-look, zoom, push to talk etc

in the end I hope that all methods are viable, group select and group trigger.
Very yes, one of the biggest things MW4 did right was allowing us more options for handling weapon groups.  I found a lot of use for dedicated triggers for groups, as well as selecting groups for the non-dedicated trigger.  For selectable groups, keybinds for both cycling and direct selection should always be offered.

What I am hoping for, which I doubt will be an option, is to be able to arbitrarily define switchable configurations of group-trigger bindings.  For example, hit the key for your "long range" setup and trigger 1 fires, say, your LRMs while trigger 2 fires your PPC.  Hit the "short range" key and those same triggers now fire SRMs and Lasers, respectively.

Edited by Owl Cutter, 27 May 2012 - 08:34 PM.


#20 Vixjara

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 03:32 PM

Found out my answer.

Edited by Vixjara, 24 August 2012 - 04:00 PM.






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