109 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior940794]

I like my ecm erppc tag spider just how it is.

wouldn't have it any other way.

[Kraven Kor]

In TT, I saw people do terrible things with the Spider, Wasp, Stinger, Locust...

It relied on a bit of luck on the initiative rolls, which could be gamed a bit IIRC, but if your fast mech got to move after their slower mechs, you could keep directly on their rear facing and have no fear of retaliation unless the player was smart and ensured all his units had another unit covering their back.

Fast moving, light mechs in TT had a modifier to be hit, but if you put them into a position where folks had a shot at them, you had pretty much "done it wrong" even if only due to bad luck.

[Elyam]

But that's the thing, initiative is always fluid, and the lights can't depend on having it in TT, especially against a skilled foe, which is why the 15 Stinger vs 1 Atlas scenario actually is correct, despite some inaccurately-run tests done over the years. Atlas pilots are Veteran and Elite, with a small smattering of Regular (pilots who inherit the mech and never become great or whose political power allows them the luxury); Stinger pilots tend to be Green and Regular, though a lesser percentage are more highly skilled (sticking with the mech whether due to inheritance or preference). But the idea isn't to really claim a 1:15 dominance as some exact measurement...it's used to reflect a reality intended originally in BT: that assaults are uncommon to rare, and the presence of even one is supposed to be a terror on the field. {Admittedly, this is more commonly seen in the MW RPG rules and the novels and background stories than it is in basic CBT since these are more dedicated to showing the Inner Sphere as it really is.}

Of course one fast light in the hands of a veteran or elite pilot can take out an assault given the right field and time. These same properties of speed, proper use of terrain, and high skill is what made the 5/8/5 55-ton mediums the most capable all-around fighters. But with average pilots and average players, lights and mediums are not intended to go one on one with an assault. They are intended to be able to get away and bring recon back to their unit.

That said about TT, I understand PGI's decision to try and make lights better able to survive and more of a threat 1 on 1. The online environment is more unforgiving due to PGI's other decisions (most of these necessary ones). But making lights and assaults equal 1-on-1 combatants is not the best way to implimernt great play - as I described above, the fear that can be inspired by the terrible foe and the need to learn tactics necessary to deal with it are important qualities to keep, and I'd add that the fear of the light that gets away to bring recon home can be even more so.

To summarize: For MWO, make lights in the hands of a great and experienced pilot and a field with good cover able to take on an assault, but make that a difficult prospect, so beginning and average pilots need to learn to respect the power of the behemoths. An Awesome should be awesome, not just another silhouette to shoot at; just as a Spider should allow a pilot to cruise through a backfield gathering recon and leave the area mostly unscathed, providing its own sense of awe. The assault has the great threat of it's power; the light, the great threat of its ability to get away.

Edit: it had been years since I read the entry in the original 3025 manual as I'm not an Atlas fan, but I knew that the 1:15 ratio was only an estimate. I wasn't remembering the exact quote. Checked the book tonight and it's actually 1:36 - yep, a whole battalion. The thing to remember though is that the Stingers and Wasps only have a few armor points and the lightest internal structure, meaning half the attacks in the Atlas arsenal will cripple or kill one, and the other half can finish off one that survives in one salvo. The scenario also assumes a true battlefield situation where not all 36 are engaging at once and the terrain allows the Atlas to single out a couple lances at a time, and sometimes twice that - it isn't an arena situation where he gets piled on in one mad rush. Anyway, this isn't about defending what one writer put down in one of BT's earliest publications...it's about the general BT view (and again, especially in the novels and RPG) that one or a lance of lights do not lightly consider going after an assault, and it would benedfit MWO to keep that spirit going; and the lights get their regime to rule as well: the roles they were made for.

Edited by Elyam, 21 January 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Elyam, on 21 January 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

But that's the thing, initiative is always fluid

First thing this made me think of:
Jayne: Only fluid I see here is the puddle of **** refusing to pay us our wage
but I couldnt find a video for it -.-

However, as has been stated multiple times by captain slow; The Spider's true role is against infantry and ammunition boxes. In a game without those, no its true role wont show lol

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 21 January 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[Cest7]

Spiders one and only roll was to test boating JJs.

[Banzi Jo]

The Spider's true role is simple..
Its a bad mech.
How can something be OVER powered if something else is not UNDER powered?
How can you say Good mech without a Bad mech to compare with?
Balance My Sons Balance.

[Vaneshi SnowCrash]

MonkeyCheese, on 15 January 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

3) buff the 4 machine gun variant.

It doesn't need 2 tons of Gauss ammo.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Iunno. I played the 5D pretty extensively for days after it came out. 3mpl + ECM + 8/8 JJ and stable. I've been able to do some pretty hefty damage with it.

The only real reason the spider feels useless right now is it's incapability of coping with other lights. Streaks tear it up like a kitten murdering wrapping tissue, and lasers hitting lights for any realistic amount of damage is a joke. On top of that, the ECM model can barely deal any damage compared to almost any other light. It does, however, do very well against larger targets and is easily the most maneuverable 'mech in the game.

Post netcode update, I think it will be fine. (As will non-streak jenners.) But right now, streaks are the end all anti-'mech weapon, even more so when you hardly have to aim them. If you look at damage charts from the 3L, you will notice that damage against other lights is overwhelmingly from ssrms, not lasers. And why shouldnt they? They're the only thing that does more than chip the paint.

[Ghost_19Hz]

If they ever make light mechs able to fill harassment and scouting, hit n run type actions it will make more sense, but i believe the devs are leaning more toward light mechs being combat mechs that outlast and outright kill Assaults.

[Asmudius Heng]

PythonCPT, on 21 January 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

If they ever make light mechs able to fill harassment and scouting, hit n run type actions it will make more sense, but i believe the devs are leaning more toward light mechs being combat mechs that outlast and outright kill Assaults.

This disappoints me also ... however it might be more of a symptom of the lag and no collisions.

I was running an LRM raven with some medlas for a while to see how it did as a flanking missile mech that never sat still unless i had a good position. To harrass their flanks and get behind them etc.

It worked - but was FAR less effective than if i ran in with streaks.

However, if collisions and knockdown were in perhaps that rush in tactic would kill most lights and the longer range harrassers would actually be a more viable option in comparison.

Pure infighter lights might have to change their tactics drastically and be content with less damage to increase survivability but running in hitting and running back out again and so forth.

I will reassess all lights and the entire game when the netcode and collisions are fixed as they have indicated is high on their priorities.

I would like to see heavy built up cover as a deadly place for lights who cannot just charge through the atlas hiding in there and will get gunned down - but be a terror on open ground where they can manouvre.

Anyway - I hope this can help give lights their role and niche.