25 replies to this topic

[Dystar]

Just wondering what you guys felt on this. I was looking forward to todays patch for the sole reason of the ppc/erppc heat changes. But when we find out that its only 9 to 8 for the ppc I felt kind of cheated. Didn't change at all the viability of these weapons in competetive play IMHO. Just wondering how anyone else out there feels about this.

Edited by Dystar, 06 February 2013 - 05:09 AM.

[ElliottTarson]

You don't get how big of a change 9 to 8 is for people that boat them, do you? I put 4 ERPPC's on my K2 today, and for the first time ever was able to successfully alpha 4 times before overheat. Before patch, that would have been ONE.

Test it before you complain please.

Edited by ElliottTarson, 06 February 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Used Pretty Baby last night. Out of the box on Frozen city I was able to fire the PPC and large Laser non stop. Was not even breaking 40% heat. My D-DC Heat efficiency rose from 1.34 to 1.55. I turned pretty Baby into a Thug (2 PPCs 2 SRM6)Any map I can fire the PPCs non stop, IN the caldera I can cycle the PPCs and SRMs with little fear of over heating. I am a happy heavy energy user now.

[Budor]

Its fine. Please stop whinin in ingame chat about it.

[pbiggz]

ppcs are now much more viable, and for the first time im managing to make use of large pulse lasers.

Edited by pbiggz, 06 February 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[Dystar]

ok what is it I"m missing here. Running a stalker with 4ppc and double heat sinks. If its truly generating 7.3 heat per shot on ppc, then why when firing 4 ppcs does it still generate 42 heat, while standing still, in frozen city?

[MustrumRidcully]

I don't know. The PPC may have been enough (maybe another 0.5 points would have been good?). The ER PPC i think was probably not sufficient. The range advantage is not significant to warrant 3 points more heat.

The ER Large Laser heat reduction seems too low to me, I would have made it at least a full point, if not 2.

The Large Pulse Laser may be sufficient, but maybe they chould have gone the full 2 points.

[MustrumRidcully]

Dystar, on 06 February 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

ok what is it I"m missing here. Running a stalker with 4ppc and double heat sinks. If its truly generating 7.3 heat per shot on ppc, then why when firing 4 ppcs does it still generate 42 heat, while standing still, in frozen city?

7.3 heat? That's not the PPC. The PPC heat was reduced to 8. 4 * 8 = 32. Before the change, it was 9 per shot, 4 * 9 = 36.
Not sure where you got the 42 heat, but remember, 42 % on your heat bar does not equal 42 heat.
42 % heat for 32 heat might imply that your heat capacity is around 76.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 February 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[Znail]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 February 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

I don't know. The PPC may have been enough (maybe another 0.5 points would have been good?). The ER PPC i think was probably not sufficient. The range advantage is not significant to warrant 3 points more heat.

The thing with the ER PPC is that it not only have longer range, it also does not have a min range. That double benifit is what makes it worth using.

[Dystar]

ok so it should be 32 heat generated. ok so if I have just 4ppcs on my mech and it shows a heat balace of 1.0, then when I fire 4ppcs while standing still it should only take me to 32ish percent heat generation correct? In that case I can see the difference there, 4xppc at 32 vs 4xppc at 36 = one full extra alpha before overheat.

[MustrumRidcully]

Dystar, on 06 February 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

ok so it should be 32 heat generated. ok so if I have just 4ppcs on my mech and it shows a heat balace of 1.0, then when I fire 4ppcs while standing still it should only take me to 32ish percent heat generation correct? In that case I can see the difference there, 4xppc at 32 vs 4xppc at 36 = one full extra alpha before overheat.

Your heat efficiency stat has no direct relation to the heat bar in your cockpit. (I might even go so far has it has very few relation to anything important about your mech's performance...)

The heat efficiency is trying to set a relation between how much heat you produce and how much heat you dissipate. The exact formula is not published, though another fellow poster (3rdWorld*, the writer of the Excel Mechlab) managed to derive it somehow.
The heat bar in your mech however has nothing to do with heat efficiency. It describes how much heat you actually generated, and how much heat you can maximally generate before you overheat. In theory, how much you dissipate and how much heat you can maximally attain are two independent figures.

They are indirectly influencing each other as heat sinks add both your heat dissiaption and your heat capacity.
Your heat capacity, however, is 30 + total heat sink bonus (which is +1 per standard heat sink, +2 for the first 10 engine double heat sinks, and +1.4 for all other double heat sinks).

Example:
So if you have 20 Double Heat Sinks, with 10 engine heat sinks, your heat capacity would be 30 + 2 * 10 + 10 * 1.4 = 64.
So if you now fire 4 PPCs with 8 heat each, you gain 4 x 8 = 32 heat. That means you'd be at 50 % on the heat bar in the cockpit.

Now, the PPCs can be fired only every 3 seconds. In these 3 seconds, your 20 DHS would dissipate 3 *( 10 * 0.2 + 10 * 0.14) = 10.2 heat.
So when you fire your second salvo, you'd have lost 10.2 heat so far and gained another 32 heat, for a total of 32 - 10.2 + 32 = 53.8 heat. Another 3 seconds later, you'd dissipate another 10.2 heat, going down to 43.6 heat - firing another PPC salvo now would bring you to 75.6 heat, which would shut you down.


*) here's the math behind heat efficiency as understood so far.

Spoiler

3rdworld, on 04 February 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Heat scale is a different animal all together.

The basic formula is:

Heat Efficiency = .61*sqrt(HS/HPS)

HS = # Heatsinks (Engine doubles are multiplied by 2, extra doubles by 1.4)
HPS = weapon Heat Per Second * (1-Discount) (all weapons are aggregated after discounting)

Current Weapon Discounts:
Small Laser 0
Medium Laser 0
Large Laser 0.015
ER Large Laser 0.015
S. Pulse Laser 0.08
M. Pulse Laser 0.065
L. Pulse Laser 0.08
PPC 0.25
ER PPC 0.25
TAG 0
Flamer -2.8
AC-20 0.25
AC-10 0.25
AC-5 0.25
UAC-5 0.2
AC-2 0.25
LB 10-X 0.25
Gauss Rifle 0.25
Machine Gun 0.25
LRM 20 0.25
LRM 15 0.25
LRM 10 0.25
LRM 5 0.55
SRM 6 0.25
SRM 4 0.25
SRM 2 0.25
Narc 0
Streak SRM 2 0.25

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 February 2013 - 05:39 AM.

[De La Fresniere]

Meh, the additional weight (compared to Large Lasers) is what made them unusable for me, and that hasn't changed.

80+ tons PPC boaters are the only ones who will truly benefit, which is silly because they were the only mechs that would use them in the first place. For smaller mechs, PPCs are still not viable options.

Even on the fairly heavy mech I usually pilot (60 tons), I'd have to be insane to replace my LLs with PPCs.

[DrBlue62]

ElliottTarson, on 06 February 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

I put 4 ERPPC's on my K2 today, and for the first time ever was able to successfully alpha 4 times before overheat. Before patch, that would have been ONE.

This is extremely exaggerated, you know it too.

The ER PPC buff was significant, however it wasn't massive.

Edited by DrBlue62, 06 February 2013 - 05:58 AM.

[Sparkledragon]

I never had a problem with the heat generation, except for the ER version of the PPC. What they HAVE to fix is hit detection. Somehow I feel like PPCs fail to register hits waaaaaaaaaaaaay more often than other weapons. Or detect hits that shouldn't be.

I have seen multiple shots to an immobile atlas' shoulder damage it's leg. I've seen salvos of three PPCs do full damage even though they went 1-2m ABOVE the target, I can't even begin to imagine how that works. Worst however are still the direct hits in an enemies face whos either not moving, or coming straight at you, with no effect.

These are the problems that really bother me. Not the heat. I could always manage heat on my 3 PPC K2, but I have no control over MWO's trolling hit detection.

[Eddrick]

I was fine with how PPCs were before the patch. To me, this is just an add bonus. Same goes for the EMP effect on ECM that is coming.

[PurpleNinja]

If you're using then, no.
If you don't use then, they're OP now.

[Havyek]

I'd almost say that it's too much heat reduction. Almost.


IMO this is perfect. It's enough of a reduction to make them viable in 2s and 3s but the 6 PPC will still have heat problems. Any more reduction and they'll become OP, ESPECIALLY with the upcoming tweaks to their EMP discharge.

[Tennex]

its pretty good now. at least at range compared to the gauss. 2ppc compared with gauss.

but considering that it does lower damage at closer range.
they still need some kind of buff


but then aagin. gauss is pretty OP. maybe PPCs are fine and Gauss is just OP.




In real life, gauss rifle uses electricity to power magnets which propel the round.
realistically gauss rifles should produce heat.

Edited by Tennex, 06 February 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[zorak ramone]

All of the "yay PPCs!" responses now are purely emotional / confirmation bias. People are trying PPCs again for (what is likely) the first time in a long while and having some success with them. However, the PPCs are still behind the direct fire balistics (GRs, UAC5s) in terms of damage efficiency.

Take the GR and PPCs, since they're directly comparable (projectile weapons with large alphas, moderate recycles, and comparable range)

PPC: DPS = 3.33, HPS = 2.67
ERPPC: DPS = 3.33, HPS = 3.67
GR: DPS = 3.75, HPS = 0.25

PPC total tons: 7 (base) + 19.04 (DHS) = 26.04
ERPPC total tons: 7 (base) + 26.19 (DHS) = 33.19
GR total tons: 15 (base) + 3.75 (ammo for 2.5 mins fire) + 1.79 (DHS) = 20.53

The GR does more DPS but weighs less to support. Given the size of DHS, it also takes up much less space, allowing for weight saving materials like ES and XL engines. At least the ERPPC can hit farther out ... but is the extra 100m or so of range worth the extra 13 tons needed to support it?

The only reason to bring a PPC is the free engine DHS. After adding one PPC, you're better off adding GRs.

EDIT and never mind the benefits of adding UAC5s, SRM6s, or SSRMs over the PPC.

Edited by zorak ramone, 06 February 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Holy **** was it enough.

If you are using PPCs now and not ******* **** up, kill yourself.