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Timidity Is Not A Tactic

Guide Balance Tactics

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#621 warner2

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 10:18 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 15 February 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Finally got that vid uploaded:



BerserX and I weren't able to assume command due to fighting on the front. Neither of us had the luxury of typing while engaged. However, the Pugs were smart enough to follow our lead and smash through the flank with us.

It was a good scrap, even if a clueless King Crab ally did leg me in the end.

Nice match. You don't think you walked in front of a friendly King Crab that was laying down AC2 fire then?

#622 Barkem Squirrel

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 10:18 AM

This gets me thinking, on how my team can play at times.

Add some adult beverages, and the need to brawl.

What is the most direct line to the other team and how can we use terrain to hide our movements until it is too late?

Lastly, grab hold of them and focus fire. Normally enough turn tail and run from us due to the violence of action when initiating contact. (one or two die immediately)

#623 Nightmare1

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 10:22 AM

View Postwarner2, on 11 March 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

Nice match. You don't think you walked in front of a friendly King Crab that was laying down AC2 fire then?


Yeah, the Mech I was using wasn't even Basic'd though, so once I realized that I was going to pass in front of him, I was going to fast to stop. I was hoping that he would cut his fire once the enemy Mech went down, but his reflexes were slow and he triggered a couple more shots after it was dead. There's definitely a time gap there between the time the Mech died and the moment he shot me.

Basically, it was a system of failures on both our parts. Mine was forgetting that I was using a "green" Mech which needed longer stop spaces, and his was from not being more attentive to his gunnery. :)

#624 YueFei

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 09:36 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 11 March 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:


Yeah, the Mech I was using wasn't even Basic'd though, so once I realized that I was going to pass in front of him, I was going to fast to stop. I was hoping that he would cut his fire once the enemy Mech went down, but his reflexes were slow and he triggered a couple more shots after it was dead. There's definitely a time gap there between the time the Mech died and the moment he shot me.

Basically, it was a system of failures on both our parts. Mine was forgetting that I was using a "green" Mech which needed longer stop spaces, and his was from not being more attentive to his gunnery. :)


It happens man. Sometimes I get shot in the back and turn around and I apologize for blocking my teammate's shot cuz I know I stepped into the wrong spot. :P

If only we had rear and side-view cameras, we'd have better feel for where our teammates are.

I guess I just have to look at the minimap more often to see where the blue triangles are. ;)

#625 rolling thunder

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 02:36 AM

Timidity, now I've been playing the game for a few month I have a better opinion of what is going wrong in some cases. Yesterday was a prime example. For starters, if you are kicking ass & chewing bubblegum you should always take time to look around to see if anyone is being picked on. It's called mutual support. As has already been stated, Assault mechs don't last long when they are being swarmed, help them out. Stop getting in other mechs tailpipes, maintain spacing so when you come to a choke point you don't end up blocking a line of retreat. When progressing to the battlefield remember to wait for the assaults. Lights can go forwards & to the flanks as long as they report back. Yesterday I witnessed the one major thing I hate about this game, glory hunting. We were winning, not by much I grant. We were 10 mechs to 11 & a light was tearing our heavy a new exhaust port while our Medium Mech was trying to take the enemy base. Despite requests from the team to go help the heavy the Medium continued to try & take the base. End result, the heavy was killed by the light, the Medium was killed by the base turrets. All it would have took was some mutual support. May be off topic but I really dislike these team where all the ECM is on one side!

#626 purplewasabi

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 04:53 PM

View Postrolling thunder, on 12 March 2015 - 02:36 AM, said:

Timidity, now I've been playing the game for a few month I have a better opinion of what is going wrong in some cases. Yesterday was a prime example. For starters, if you are kicking ass & chewing bubblegum you should always take time to look around to see if anyone is being picked on. It's called mutual support. As has already been stated, Assault mechs don't last long when they are being swarmed, help them out. Stop getting in other mechs tailpipes, maintain spacing so when you come to a choke point you don't end up blocking a line of retreat. When progressing to the battlefield remember to wait for the assaults. Lights can go forwards & to the flanks as long as they report back. Yesterday I witnessed the one major thing I hate about this game, glory hunting. We were winning, not by much I grant. We were 10 mechs to 11 & a light was tearing our heavy a new exhaust port while our Medium Mech was trying to take the enemy base. Despite requests from the team to go help the heavy the Medium continued to try & take the base. End result, the heavy was killed by the light, the Medium was killed by the base turrets. All it would have took was some mutual support. May be off topic but I really dislike these team where all the ECM is on one side!

On the topic of mutual support, I would also like to add that the priority level of the target should also be considered. There was one game where friendly snipers and LRM mechs were being swarmed by enemy lights. They weren't that far from the main group but the main group was heavily engaged in a brawl. Friendly lights ignored their call for help as they found an isolated Atlas and decided to swarm, possibly AFK early in the game. Ultimately, the lights got the Atlas, but our long range mechs did not survive and the game got a bit more difficult thereafter as enemy lights regrouped with their main. It happens too often in pug drops. In a way its sort of related to timidity(?)

edit: my perception is that they saw big stompy mechs, big guns, run away and maybe come back later when the enemies are soften up. get 5 kills before they go down and then complain "I got 5 kills, you can't get one!?".

oh the joys of pug life

Edited by purplewasabi, 18 March 2015 - 08:11 PM.


#627 Void Angel

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 05:28 PM

Absolutely correct - though it's more on the topic of teamwork (shameless plug!)

#628 Markus Keller

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 09:04 AM

Void Angel, I blame you for an unproductive morning. I just read all 32 pages of this thread. Your handling (dismantling) of the trolls and their "arguments" is, frankly, inspiring. As is your restraint. And thus, I was too entranced by the unfolding multi-year drama to get anything done in real life. So you owe me reparations or something.

Actually just keep fighting the Good Fight against ignorance and poor/absent logic.

Cheers.

#629 Void Angel

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 09:34 AM

Er, sorry? And you're welcome!

#630 Not A Real RAbbi

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:23 PM

LOL @ "Learn to Scout". Easiest way to get Captain Tryhard's tampon string twisted, right there. I know. Recon is almost all I've been doing for the last month.

Amend that to read: "Learn to Let Captqin Tryhard See That You Are Doing What He Expects Of You", or it's just an invitation to get whined at. A LOT. Usually by the folks that weren't paying any attention to your reports, and paid for it with their meta-tastic heavies.

#631 JeGGoR

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 02:47 AM

Thanks for the guide, I wrote a French translation available here:
http://mwomercs.com/...s-une-tactique/

#632 Void Angel

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 10:45 AM

Sweet! Thanks a ton!

#633 Chados

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 07:00 AM

Here's the funny thing. I've actually been in matches where I was on the tip of the spear and a push was starting to fail. There I am, off to the side in cover on Viridian Bog...and I think to myself "Timidity is not a Tactic!" Thereby marching out of cover and into the fight.

LOLOLOL!

Edited by Chados, 29 November 2015 - 07:01 AM.


#634 GLaDOSauR

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 04:43 PM

Sadly, this thread is still relevant after 3 years. And with a new wave of new players from steam, we can expect to see a lot of timidity. I agree with everything the OP has to say on this topic and I commend him in his valiant defense of his viewpoint. And now for some input from me: I think one of the main reasons that people hide upon taking fire(in a n00bs case. There is no reason for a seasoned player to do this) is that they're coming from games where you die easier than in MWO. In a game like Battlefield, you can be dead in a second if you come under fire. In MWO, you are much more tanky and can usually take several seconds worth of non-crippling damage. More if you're spreading damage. I actually have a hard time switching between games like BF and MWO. The play-styles are so radically different that it usually takes a few matches to get back in stride.

Also, I think that hiding behind cover can be perfectly acceptable in certain cases although these don't really count as the timidity the OP was talking about:

1) incoming lrms. If you're taking fire from a lrm boat it's almost always a good idea to take cover until the rain has stopped.

2)Ambush. If your scouts(who are hopefully doing their jobs :) ) have spotted an enemy force in-coming, then hiding and waiting for them to get closer before exposing yourself to their fire can be a good idea. especially in maps like river city. If enemies are coming through the water and you're in a short range build, it's a good idea to wait in the buildings till they get closer instead of revealing yourself to fire.

3) Near the beginning of a match, revealing yourself to enemy forces can cause a lot of problems. Keeping your head down and staying out of sight is very important when getting into position for a push or counter-push.

Good job Mr Void Angel. I commend you in your efforts. :)

Edited by GLaDOSauR, 29 November 2015 - 04:44 PM.


#635 Void Angel

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 05:14 PM

Well, thanks! I think there might be something to your thoughts on damage aversion for some players - unfortunately, a lot of players do this, even those who have been around to know better. I think it has to do with the psychological effects of the long-range metas we've been seeing since, well, ever. Lots of long-range guns means lots of long-range fire if you get caught, resulting in severe damage - so because players are learning from playing the game, they start to avoid leaving cover in front of all those long-range guns. There's more to it than that, involving operant conditioning and the like, but in a general sense, I think that's what's happening.

#636 Deiwos

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 01:37 AM

I've been primarily playing two mechs since I've come back recently (after not having played since early-ish in the beta): Jenner, and Centurion. Both of these have been built as short-range skirmishers basically; the Jenner a quick hunter-killer and Atlas butt-stabber, and the Centurion a force of death against anything silly enough to get within my SRM range (until my ammo runs out). In both cases I either died gloriously or ended with under half my health left, because if I had hung back and poked at the enemy mechs or timidly hid away I would have been more useless than dead. I know it's scary to have your armor/crit slots turn yellow and then red, but sometimes you need to just charge in and kill them before they kill you. Of course, you need to be smart about what you do and not just throw yourself against the entire team, but smart does not equal timid.

The biggest things that have lost matches I've played in hasn't been superior enemy tactics/firepower or anything like that, but rather my team huddling up in a corner while the enemy surrounds us. A prime example was on the jungle map earlier, almost the -entire team- ran up to a divot in the side of the middle plateau/pillar thing, and just milled around there, getting in each others' ways and obscuring lines of sight while the enemy picked us off from all sides easily. (Also a lot of my personal deaths have come from engaging the enemy amidst my teammates, only for them to run off and hide.)

That's another thing. Try to watch where your squadmates are, because if you don't there's a good chance you'll be getting in their way, and vice versa.

Edited by Deiwos, 11 December 2015 - 01:38 AM.


#637 Not A Real RAbbi

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 07:49 PM

Just a sidebar on this whole bravery-before-the-enemy thing:

There's no hit to PSR (that we know of) for your mech being destroyed, all else being equal. Sometimes, you might be willing to risk that in order to bring some advantage to your team.

FOR INSTANCE, earlier tonight on Viridian Bog, I made the decision in my ACH-PRIME to go ahead and wreak havoc in the enemy's midst. ECM on DISRUPT, cSPLs blazin', I jumped right down in front of a KGC, ran on between a AWS and some other heavy, and made a huge nuisance of myself to the enemy force's main body. We were tied up at 4 kills per team, IIRC, either before or after I died there. That disruption, though, was timed. The team was split, the enemy was not, and they were about to ram into the back side of 1/2 of my team, and not the heavier half either. That havoc-wreakiing did two things for my teammates. 1.) It allowed them time to regroup and reposition, that they likely would not otherwise have had. 2.) It gave them a better idea of the size, composition, and whereabouts of the enemy force. It may have cost us a fast light mech and a small ding on my pride, and maybe it wasn't the turning point in the battle at all, but it helped. What was an even fight was, near as I could see, about to get lopsided. It didn't, and my teammates went on to win.

Sometimes, you gotta be willing to take the D. (TWSS)

#638 Void Angel

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 06:11 PM

A good light can turn the tide of a match in a number of ways, as can a good Assault. My Atlas D-DC used to have one of the lowest kills per death of any of my favored' mechs - and one of the highest win/loss ratios. For a while my Spider 5D had similar stats.

With the Atlas, those stats are accounted for by my willingness to take it in the teeth for the team - over and over and over. A lot of times. No, more than that. This many times:Posted Image


The Spider, though was different - I would do my sneaky scout thing and just take the time to tell my team (with my keyboard; this was before VoIP) what the enemy was doing. Just having that information helped keep them all focused on the same threats and enabled them to be more confident in taking action - which had a hugely beneficial effect on the game.

Edited by Void Angel, 02 January 2016 - 06:11 PM.


#639 Vlad Striker

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 10:41 AM

they cannot shoot at you at the same time
you exactly read of my thoughts. The first post is actual at present days!

Assaults is the bones, heavies is the muscles, medium is the skin and lights is the immune system.

#640 Irishtoker

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 05:41 AM

Found all of this very useful. Thanks all.





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