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The Reasons Behind Weapons.


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#1 BerryChunks

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:23 PM

The reason mechs had 1 PPC (2 if they were really big mechs)
The reason mechs had 1 Large laser (Im looking at you, Raven, and 2 or ever 3 if they were really big mechs)
The reason mechs had 2 medium lasers (or 3-4 if they were really big mechs)
The reason mechs had 1 SRM pack, and 1 LRM rack(again, 2 or more if they were really big mechs)

is because these weapons were supposed to be powerful enough on their own in small numbers.

I want anyone to try to score top kills with limited weapon platforms that are tonned out .

The paradigm doesn't work in MWO. MWO is not really mechwarrior. It's something else.


I've heard tales that they wanted heat to be more punishing, but that only means more boating and flash mobbing, and less tactical play.

Edited by BerryChunks, 18 January 2013 - 06:24 PM.


#2 Tarman

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:26 PM

Are you STILL hurt over this? I'm starting to just pity you.

#3 Fergrim

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:31 PM

Yeah, Berry, sounds like you should quit and try something else.

This is nothing PGI is going to change for you, so I mean, it's pretty much a lost cause. Just play the other totally legit mechwarrior title out there....

Oh wait.

#4 verybad

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:36 PM

View PostBerryChunks, on 18 January 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

The reason mechs had 1 PPC (2 if they were really big mechs)
The reason mechs had 1 Large laser (Im looking at you, Raven, and 2 or ever 3 if they were really big mechs)
The reason mechs had 2 medium lasers (or 3-4 if they were really big mechs)
The reason mechs had 1 SRM pack, and 1 LRM rack(again, 2 or more if they were really big mechs)

is because these weapons were supposed to be powerful enough on their own in small numbers.


Hrrm, so how come boats in the TT games are also regarded as the most effective (if cheesy) builds.

You're logic is unfounded. A OOC on it's own in TT isn't feared, just repected. Any time you have build customization, your'e going to have MinMaxing, and any time you have MinMaxing, you're going to have boats.

The Arguably most nasty boat in battletech is the Hellstar, which carries 4 clan ERPPCs and enough heatsinks to use them pretty much indefinately.

You're looking at the game in rose colored glasses if you think that 2 PPCs is a big deal in battletech, especially battletech with custom designs.

Edited by verybad, 18 January 2013 - 06:39 PM.


#5 BerryChunks

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:39 PM

View PostTarman, on 18 January 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

Are you STILL hurt over this? I'm starting to just pity you.


not really. It's an assessment. They should know why the forums is full of rage. I don't quite think people can put the finger on the biggest issue that makes it "feel" unlike any mechwarrior.

You had MW2 and 3, both fun games and good to play, but admittedly too free wheeling with the infinite weapon spam. MW4, in an attempt to both control weapon spam and redesign the game to behave in a more battletech fashion, hardpoints were added.

This game tried to do that, but then also put in some large heat punishment (they're thinking of helping PPCs and LL only, by tweaking their values), double armor, and DoT lasers. This makes the option of sticking on mass weapons for the quick alpha that will hit all the same armor at once a much more viable scenario, especially if you're going to overheat no matter what. You might as well fire a group of weapons that do damage instantly instead of DoT, AND also potentially kill them because they hit a single armor point instead of spreading damage all over like a watering hose. Only AFK and non torso rolling people who are moving straight at you will allow you to hit full damage on a concentrated point.

I think it's important to understand why the playerbase is upset with the feel of the game, apart from ECM and netcode, and how they alienated the biggest population of customers they could've hoped to have, the Battletech fans.

Cry me a river if you don't like posts.

View Postverybad, on 18 January 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Hrrm, so how come boats in the TT games are also regarded as the most effective (if cheesy) builds.

You're logic is unfounded. A OOC on it's own in TT isn't feared, just repected. Any time you have build customization, your'e going to have MinMaxing, and any time you have MinMaxing, you're going to have boats.

The Arguably most nasty boat in battletech is the Hellstar, which carries 4 clan ERPPCs and enough heatsinks to use them pretty much indefinately.

You're looking at the game in rose colored glasses if you think that 2 PPCs is a big deal in battletech, especially battletech with custom designs.

Quite frankly your grand statement is full of it. I don't even support a lot of PGI's decisions. However you're just making stuff up now.

View Postverybad, on 18 January 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Hrrm, so how come boats in the TT games are also regarded as the most effective (if cheesy) builds.

You're logic is unfounded. A OOC on it's own in TT isn't feared, just repected. Any time you have build customization, your'e going to have MinMaxing, and any time you have MinMaxing, you're going to have boats.

The Arguably most nasty boat in battletech is the Hellstar, which carries 4 clan ERPPCs and enough heatsinks to use them pretty much indefinately.

You're looking at the game in rose colored glasses if you think that 2 PPCs is a big deal in battletech, especially battletech with custom designs.

Quite frankly your grand statement is full of it. I don't even support a lot of PGI's decisions. However you're just making stuff up now.


double PPC to the head is an instant kill. a large laser doing 8 damage would tear through a commando in two well placed shots anywhere on the mech. Thats ONE large laser, wit hyour hand-eye coordination doing the job.

On the other hand, as everything I stated is true, mass weapons are what are called for.

Also, it really depended on what mass weapon you used in TT.

#6 Mr Mantis

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:40 PM

And the reason they changed it:
In tabletop having 1 ppc meant you could do a large amount of damage but the amount of times that would hit was menial. where that damage would be placed would also be random. Now we translate to the live game and to make the game feel fun to play it is much better to have where we hit to be determined by the placement of the cross hairs and player skill. Doing this made the same amount of damage that would be fine in TT be much too powerful for this game type.

Hope that helps you understand the decision that was made in translation, but that doesn't mean you need to like it.

#7 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:41 PM

Please tell me more about all the totally awesome canon 'mech designs that only carried two medium lasers.

Or one PPC.

Or one SRM and one LRM.

#8 Tarman

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:42 PM

View PostBerryChunks, on 18 January 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:


not really. It's an assessment. They should know why the forums is full of rage. I don't quite think people can put the finger on the biggest issue that makes it "feel" unlike any mechwarrior.

You had MW2 and 3, both fun games and good to play, but admittedly too free wheeling with the infinite weapon spam. MW4, in an attempt to both control weapon spam and redesign the game to behave in a more battletech fashion, hardpoints were added.

This game tried to do that, but then also put in some large heat punishment (they're thinking of helping PPCs and LL only, by tweaking their values), double armor, and DoT lasers. This makes the option of sticking on mass weapons for the quick alpha that will hit all the same armor at once a much more viable scenario, especially if you're going to overheat no matter what. You might as well fire a group of weapons that do damage instantly instead of DoT, AND also potentially kill them because they hit a single armor point instead of spreading damage all over like a watering hose. Only AFK and non torso rolling people who are moving straight at you will allow you to hit full damage on a concentrated point.

I think it's important to understand why the playerbase is upset with the feel of the game, apart from ECM and netcode, and how they alienated the biggest population of customers they could've hoped to have, the Battletech fans.

Cry me a river if you don't like posts.



Dude, your posts are enough of a crying river that I'm surprised you haven't drowned. I'm not even kidding about the pity, you're pining away for a game that will never exist. You don't seem to be able to update your TT database to operate in the MWO environment and I feel badly for you that you can't.

I've been at this as long as you, I have paperfold Unseen sitting in the boxed set on the shelf behind me. But I also played MW2 and beyond, and see the differences in the gameplay that need to be addressed, while you insist that straightporting is the cureall to every problem ever. That's simply unrealistic.

#9 Lynette Steffeld

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:48 PM

Times change....

But.

Lag...

Lag never changes.


#10 Narcissistic Martyr

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:52 PM

You're looking at this from a MWO all the maps are tiny and we can't communicate effectively point of view.

Assume one has 8 mechs and is well coordinated. Now, is it better for one mech to have 80 LRMS thus making it a tasty target or for all the mechs to have an LRM10 or two LRM 5s giving the team better tonnage efficiency?

One could design a mech to alpha strike each time, certainly in MWO that's good for focused damage, but perhaps in a well coordinate team it might be better to have a wider variety of weapons. Indeed if a team plays smartly it may be better to be relatively under heatsinked with the understanding that you will only use the weapons most suited to current combat conditions making the combined firepower of the team more effective but to power of a single mech at any single range less so. This is because you aren't firing your LL at short range generating wasteful heat but rather the SRM6 rack you installed instead of the 4 extra DHS you'd need to sink the LL's heat.

Ultimately these are the design considerations of TT from which all stock mechs have come.There a dual guass mech would be powerful but pairing a single gauss with an LRM20 for crit seeking and a couple extra medium lasers is a far better investment of weight. However, MWO!=TT, the maps are small, and teamwork is elusive at best, so the one trick pony mechs are currently ruling the day as you cannot count on your teammates. I believe that once voice chat becomes more common and the size of our maps grows, against a well coordinated team the lrm boat who lacks sufficient short range weaponry, the splat cat who cannot fight at range, and the other one trick ponies will become a liability as they cannot function in the variety of battlefield conditions that will arise.

#11 verybad

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:53 PM

View PostBerryChunks, on 18 January 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:




double PPC to the head is an instant kill. a large laser doing 8 damage would tear through a commando in two well placed shots anywhere on the mech. Thats ONE large laser, wit hyour hand-eye coordination doing the job.

On the other hand, as everything I stated is true, mass weapons are what are called for.

Also, it really depended on what mass weapon you used in TT.


Welcome to non random located hits. I see all sorts of larger weapons in use in this game, so I'm not really certain what the problem is...

This is the chance of a double PPC taking out someone's cockpit in battletech: 0.0007716 (1/36^2)
If you think larger weapons wit ha bigger chance of crits or one shot kills would be a good thing for this already unbalanced game, kindly go back to your goblin cave and make that game.

Nobody agrees with you here. You want to know why? Because you're fricking insane. In a multiplayer game, you already have focussed fire, you're got aiming, now you want to make kills faster?

And also you're wrong about what the most dangerous weapons in battletech were. Medium Lasers (ERML for CLans) boatrs with Targeting Computers blew everything else out of the water, PPCs or Gauss rifles were poor followuppers.

#12 Ashnod

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:55 PM

In guessing you never have played table top berry, because your wrong .. There's plenty of mechs or variants of mechs that have multiple weapons of the same type


Turkina with 4 ATM 12's
Bane 8 LRM 15's ( not including all the other Rediculous boat builds the bane has)
Vulture 6 SRM 6
Warhawk 4 ER PPC's
Thunder hawk 3 gauss rifles
Hunchback 4p
Quite a few clan mech variants with 5-6 streak 6's
Pirahna 12 machine guns (actually good in TT)
Etc etc

Edited by Ashnod, 18 January 2013 - 07:01 PM.


#13 General Taskeen

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:59 PM

Well, he's actually partially right. Armor was doubled after all. With double armor, a stock design (let's say a Dragon) definitely has a harder time with limited weapons vs. a double armored kitted-out Mech. If there was a 2 stock designs against each other (one has more weapons, the other doesn't) without double armor, it might be a little different.

View PostSolis Obscuri, on 18 January 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Please tell me more about all the totally awesome canon 'mech designs that only carried two medium lasers.

Or one PPC.

Or one SRM and one LRM.


Berry kind of worded it weird, but there is always varying combinations of weapons on Mechs, that much is obvious (some big weapons + backup type weapons, etc). A Spider with 2 MLasers, an Orion-1K with an LRM15 and an SRM4 (and an assortment of others), Cataphract-1X with 1 PPC, etc.

#14 LaserAngel

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:01 PM

Range and infinite ammo offers little benefits when the LRM can do it all.

#15 Deamhan

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:06 PM

Sorry but it's BS. Provided that both mechs remain moving, lasers do their full damage over time so you have to maintain aim on a single part for its duration. LBX and SRMs have a spread and LRMs tend to hit multiple spots as well. Nobody runs small lasers. Large, mediums, ac 2 and 5 seem alright. AC20 and Gauss are heavy. PPC have a min range (as does LRM) and ER PPC generate a lot of heat.


The mg, well, no comment.

#16 Lukoi

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:07 PM

Mektek is for TT play. MWO is a translation, not a direct representation of TT. Be realistic....human reflexes, coordination, precision etc are never going to replicate the randomness of dice. And I don't know why someone would want it to.

Frankly, I think the video games do a better job of creating a gameworld reminiscent of the written material, novels etc and that's more worth attaining than replication of the TT rules imo.

#17 Trauglodyte

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostBerryChunks, on 18 January 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

The reason mechs had 1 PPC (2 if they were really big mechs)
The reason mechs had 1 Large laser (Im looking at you, Raven, and 2 or ever 3 if they were really big mechs)
The reason mechs had 2 medium lasers (or 3-4 if they were really big mechs)
The reason mechs had 1 SRM pack, and 1 LRM rack(again, 2 or more if they were really big mechs)

is because these weapons were supposed to be powerful enough on their own in small numbers.

I want anyone to try to score top kills with limited weapon platforms that are tonned out .

The paradigm doesn't work in MWO. MWO is not really mechwarrior. It's something else.


I've heard tales that they wanted heat to be more punishing, but that only means more boating and flash mobbing, and less tactical play.


Actually, you're wrong here. Mechs were designed with a couple things in mind:

- Mediums and Lights were built on small numbers of short range weapons, for the most part, as they were supposed to be force multipliers and quick strike specialists. There were some expections such as the Panther with the PPC (ie, fast Scout capable of ranged support) but these mechs were niche fillers.

- Heavies were the stalwart of the mech groups and, like the Assaults, were designed to have capable fire at all ranges. BUT, the caveat is that they didn't use all of their weapons at all ranges.

A good example of this is the Shadow Hawk and the Warhammer:

Shadow Hawk (AC/5 + LRM5 for long range support, once it was close, fire was switched to the SRM2 and Md Laser + AC)
Warhammer (2 PPC for long range support, Md Lasers and SRM6 for close range, Sm Lasers and MGs for point blank/infantry)

Now then, the Shadow Hawk can't go toe to toe with the Warhammer but it is built to help suppliment the Warhammer. And both alternate weapon groupings based on the range to target. The problem with MWO is that nobody thinks or builds like that because it isn't efficient, engine allowances grant speeds too great compared to TT design, and maps are so small that the concept of range isn't necessary (plus, why bother with dedicated long ranged weapons when LRMs go over obstacles, have greater range, and are heat friendly).

#18 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:13 PM

View PostGeneral Taskeen, on 18 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Berry kind of worded it weird, but there is always varying combinations of weapons on Mechs, that much is obvious (some big weapons + backup type weapons, etc). A Spider with 2 MLasers, an Orion-1K with an LRM15 and an SRM4 (and an assortment of others), Cataphract-1X with 1 PPC, etc.

So he's saying my 1 LRM-20 + 1 SRM-6 + 5 MLas HBK-4J is bad?

And my 1 AC/10 + 5MLas HBK-4H?

And my AC/20 + 2MPLas +1 MLas HBK-4G?

And my 1 PPC + 1 AC/10 +3 MLas Cataphract?

He'd probably say bad things about my 1 Gauss + 1 AC/5 + 2 LRM-15 + 2 MLas Atlas, too... :(

#19 BerryChunks

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:14 PM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 18 January 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:


Actually, you're wrong here. Mechs were designed with a couple things in mind:

- Mediums and Lights were built on small numbers of short range weapons, for the most part, as they were supposed to be force multipliers and quick strike specialists. There were some expections such as the Panther with the PPC (ie, fast Scout capable of ranged support) but these mechs were niche fillers.

- Heavies were the stalwart of the mech groups and, like the Assaults, were designed to have capable fire at all ranges. BUT, the caveat is that they didn't use all of their weapons at all ranges.

A good example of this is the Shadow Hawk and the Warhammer:

Shadow Hawk (AC/5 + LRM5 for long range support, once it was close, fire was switched to the SRM2 and Md Laser + AC)
Warhammer (2 PPC for long range support, Md Lasers and SRM6 for close range, Sm Lasers and MGs for point blank/infantry)

Now then, the Shadow Hawk can't go toe to toe with the Warhammer but it is built to help suppliment the Warhammer. And both alternate weapon groupings based on the range to target. The problem with MWO is that nobody thinks or builds like that because it isn't efficient, engine allowances grant speeds too great compared to TT design, and maps are so small that the concept of range isn't necessary (plus, why bother with dedicated long ranged weapons when LRMs go over obstacles, have greater range, and are heat friendly).

View PostTrauglodyte, on 18 January 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:


Actually, you're wrong here. Mechs were designed with a couple things in mind:

- Mediums and Lights were built on small numbers of short range weapons, for the most part, as they were supposed to be force multipliers and quick strike specialists. There were some expections such as the Panther with the PPC (ie, fast Scout capable of ranged support) but these mechs were niche fillers.

- Heavies were the stalwart of the mech groups and, like the Assaults, were designed to have capable fire at all ranges. BUT, the caveat is that they didn't use all of their weapons at all ranges.

A good example of this is the Shadow Hawk and the Warhammer:

Shadow Hawk (AC/5 + LRM5 for long range support, once it was close, fire was switched to the SRM2 and Md Laser + AC)
Warhammer (2 PPC for long range support, Md Lasers and SRM6 for close range, Sm Lasers and MGs for point blank/infantry)

Now then, the Shadow Hawk can't go toe to toe with the Warhammer but it is built to help suppliment the Warhammer. And both alternate weapon groupings based on the range to target. The problem with MWO is that nobody thinks or builds like that because it isn't efficient, engine allowances grant speeds too great compared to TT design, and maps are so small that the concept of range isn't necessary (plus, why bother with dedicated long ranged weapons when LRMs go over obstacles, have greater range, and are heat friendly).


This is the kind of argument that's constructive that I was looking for. I don't think the "troll!" and "cry" comments have really helped here.

I can agree that having a specialized coin flip build is far more efficient in the curent state of MWO compared to a multi-range platform. The problem is that we have canon stock mechs for trial mechs and what to buy, and we also get all these cute fluff talks about using multiple systems when they make up stories for "Mech #239239" in the News Forum.

It seems like the game design (or the game devs/publicists) are not in alignment as to what the ideal MWO experience is, but based on what they added, based on TRYING to nerf boats (Yes, they did!), via DHS, they seem not to want boating either. However, as I pointed out, many nerfs actually encourage boating because thats the best way to get a qwuick kill.

Edited by BerryChunks, 18 January 2013 - 07:19 PM.


#20 Ashnod

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:18 PM

Another good example on supplementation is the centurion and trebuchet, mechs were designed with lance composition in mind, like the fire support medium heavy

1 centurion
2 trebuchet
1 archer

Together their weapons are
2 LRM 20's
4 LRM 15's
1 LRM 10
12 Medium Lasers
1 A/C 10

I don't know about you but that configuration is quite scary at all ranges..

Edited by Ashnod, 18 January 2013 - 07:20 PM.






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