59 replies to this topic

[Kyle Polulak]

All feedback posts about Conquest Mode will be merged into this thread for simplified reference and overview.

Please attempt to respond to the following questions in your responses:

• What map is affected?

Please try to be clear and constructive in your responses.

[Inertiaman]

Quote

Conquest:
· Changed it so you now get a resource every 1.7 seconds instead of 2 seconds.
· Increased the reward for collected resources from 25 per resource to 50 per resource.

I don't think I'm speaking for myself (although am certainly not speaking for everyone) when I say that this is a crushingly disappointing update of conquest mode. There is a pile of feedback outlining issues with the game type, ranging from the general issue of it essentially playing like assault and not rewarding any variation in tactics beyond swarming, to more specific issues around the insertion of multiple cap points into unsuitable maps and over-visibility/inaccessibily/indefensibility of certain areas leading to under use of parts of the maps.

Whilst I'm not surprised that it hasn't received any serious attention in this patch - it would have at least been comforting to see a review of the last round of feedback that picked out any decent community points for explanation and expansion with a view to progressing the game mode beyond it's currently lacklustre incarnation.

If you're not planning any changes and are internally entirely happy with the game type - fine. Tell us that and we'll not waste any time deliberating over it on your behalf.

[beniliusbob]

Needs better rewards for resource win to counter the high value of kill assists. My strategy in conquest is to find a good bombardment zone to kill the idiots who go for useless resource points.

You also need to put capture wins back in so that assault isn't TDM.

[blimpeh]

My biggest issue with Conquest, made worse with this update, is that it basically renders Assault worthless to those trying to gain credits fast. Because capture rewards were removed, pulling off a capture win in Assault is rarely sought after. That coincides with the fact that Conquest gives rewards for resource collection as well as general combat. With that concept (and the fact that this update made resource collection faster and worth twice as much), Conquest is clearly the much better choice of game modes for those who wish to gain more credits quicker (most players).

tl;dr, Assault is now a team barfight, and no longer worth it anyway because Conquest is more rewarding.

[Sandslice]

Caustic: I got confused by the reversal of waypoints Kappa and Theta: Kappa is now on 8-line, and Theta mid. I take it this is for consistency purposes, as Th is the middle/contested point on every other map.

Inertiaman, on 08 January 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

I don't think I'm speaking for myself (although am certainly not speaking for everyone) when I say that this is a crushingly disappointing update of conquest mode. There is a pile of feedback outlining issues with the game type, ranging from the general issue of it essentially playing like assault and not rewarding any variation in tactics beyond swarming

Not sure I agree. The resource gain rate is small on paper, but surprisingly large in-game - meaning there's value in trying to use recon AS RECON (and not just as ECM/SSRM trolls) to see if your opponent will blob to one node (kappa on River, kappa / epsilon on Forest, nearest on Frozen, now-theta on Caustic) - and then go for that node lead by avoiding the blob.
Before writing it off as a disappointment and declaring that it won't change tactic, try playing some and adjusting a bit, then decide.

[Jonathan Paine]

Love the faster resource gathering and increased pay off. Tinkering with faster designs for some of my heavier mechs now.

[Inertiaman]

Sandslice, on 08 January 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Before writing it off as a disappointment and declaring that it won't change tactic, try playing some and adjusting a bit, then decide.

Had a pretty lengthy crack last night and still see complete irrelevance around the caps - in fact many games result in the team that holds the most points losing due to deaths regardless. The current maps are simply too small and in most cases, lacking any local defensive structures to work around.

Fingers crossed the new maps are larger and have been designed around conquest more specifically.

[Gigastrike]

I think we've struck a nice balance in terms of game speed now. Games still end before the resource goal is reached if both teams go right for each other, but I've already been in games where the other team won by resources simply because the light mechs did their job, and we didn't. I think it will still take a while for people to come back to the idea that this isn't team deathmatch with a different capture mechanic, but it's looking like a good change so far.

[RightHook]

If this post is inapproprate in this forum please move it to where it should appear, but since it says all feed back will be merged here I thought I should post it here.

Unfortunatly faster cap times and payoffs are not enough to change the basic tactics of the game.
Without repair costs payoffs are less important and I often don't even notice them on the match summary screen.
Faster cap times mean that while I'm clearing someone elses cap on a base they are clearing mine on another at the same pace and neither of us can do so fast enough to change the outcome of the blob battle.

Every Conquest game plays the same for me. If you are in a heavy mech it's just another assault game. When I'm in a light mech I run to a resource point and cap it, then run to another, while some light on the other team is doing the same in a symmetrical orbit, until one of us (usually me) runs into the blob.
I have been in very few conquest games that were won by resource capture or where the tactics of TDM didn't prevail. And none that were significantly different in game play from Assault mode, as to notice the difference.

I think if you want a change in the tactics you need a drastic change in the format. Just adding more capture points will not change tactics regardless of the speed with which you capture them.

Even though the mode is called Conquest, the resource gathering is more a mining operation so make the mission and objectives reflect that.

For example:
1. You can NOT win by killing the other team. If the other team collects more then you do, when all the opposing team members are dead their cargo ship blasts off and nukes the mines from orbit so no further collection is possible. They fulfill their contract and you don't so they get the better bonus. Thus the team with the most resources at the end of the game wins.

2. Bases have a limited amount of resources, say 700 each. That means you can't just move around in a slow mass one resource at a time. You have to get forces to as many places as possible so that they are not dry when you get around to them. Thus you have more smallers battles and fewer blobs. In this case there should be no home bases, all bases should be moved and up for grabs at the start of the match. Or see # 5 below.

3. Remove the limit of resources needed to win so that the more you collect the bigger your bonus. When all the resources are used up the game ends.

4. You only capture while someone is actually at that base. Meaning you have to defend it.

To really make the mode more interesting and change the tactics:

5. You have to deliver collected resources to your home base to be "unloaded" in order to get credit. Home bases have no resources of their own, only what is brought to them. What they have at the end of the game is what you get as a bonus. You can only load up as many resources as your mech weights. or perhaps the deference between your max weight and your current weight, creating a whole new type of mech build just for resource collection. Or possibly a module that allows for additional resource collection. This means that you can't just move from one base to another, you have to protect your home base and the supply lines in between. Again spreading out the blob.

6. You only load and unload while you are at the base and possibly powered down. Thus you have to rely on your team to protect you and you don't have a continual drip of points adding up even when there is no one there. Thus you will actually need to have defenders at sites to prevent the other team from taking limited resources while lights shuttle resources back to the cargo ship.

7. You can "steal" Resources from the enemy home base if it is left unguarded. Thus giving the last man standing on a team the choice of continuing to collect resources or sacrificing himself to save the mission and get the mother ship to leave with the resources that it has. It also means the opponents have to decide wither to kill him when they find him or not. like is used to be in assalt.

8. Remove the indicator that someone is collecting resources from the mining bases. Leave it only on your home base. This means that someone will actually have to scout and communicate back where the other team is and what they are doing.

I understand that this is a major change in the game programming for conquest. But if you want a major change in the tactics used in a game mode then it HAS to be significantly different then the assault. More capture points will not make a difference regardless of the speed at which they can be captured if I can still just use the same tactics to kill everyone else to win. It would also make two very different game modes and increase the variety in the game.

[blimpeh]

RightHook, on 09 January 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

If this post is inapproprate in this forum please move it to where it should appear, but since it says all feed back will be merged here I thought I should post it here.

Unfortunatly faster cap times and payoffs are not enough to change the basic tactics of the game.
Without repair costs payoffs are less important and I often don't even notice them on the match summary screen.
Faster cap times mean that while I'm clearing someone elses cap on a base they are clearing mine on another at the same pace and neither of us can do so fast enough to change the outcome of the blob battle.

Every Conquest game plays the same for me. If you are in a heavy mech it's just another assault game. When I'm in a light mech I run to a resource point and cap it, then run to another, while some light on the other team is doing the same in a symmetrical orbit, until one of us (usually me) runs into the blob.
I have been in very few conquest games that were won by resource capture or where the tactics of TDM didn't prevail. And none that were significantly different in game play from Assault mode, as to notice the difference.

I think if you want a change in the tactics you need a drastic change in the format. Just adding more capture points will not change tactics regardless of the speed with which you capture them.

Even though the mode is called Conquest, the resource gathering is more a mining operation so make the mission and objectives reflect that.

For example:
1. You can NOT win by killing the other team. If the other team collects more then you do, when all the opposing team members are dead their cargo ship blasts off and nukes the mines from orbit so no further collection is possible. They fulfill their contract and you don't so they get the better bonus. Thus the team with the most resources at the end of the game wins.

2. Bases have a limited amount of resources, say 700 each. That means you can't just move around in a slow mass one resource at a time. You have to get forces to as many places as possible so that they are not dry when you get around to them. Thus you have more smallers battles and fewer blobs. In this case there should be no home bases, all bases should be moved and up for grabs at the start of the match. Or see # 5 below.

3. Remove the limit of resources needed to win so that the more you collect the bigger your bonus. When all the resources are used up the game ends.

4. You only capture while someone is actually at that base. Meaning you have to defend it.

To really make the mode more interesting and change the tactics:

5. You have to deliver collected resources to your home base to be "unloaded" in order to get credit. Home bases have no resources of their own, only what is brought to them. What they have at the end of the game is what you get as a bonus. You can only load up as many resources as your mech weights. or perhaps the deference between your max weight and your current weight, creating a whole new type of mech build just for resource collection. Or possibly a module that allows for additional resource collection. This means that you can't just move from one base to another, you have to protect your home base and the supply lines in between. Again spreading out the blob.

6. You only load and unload while you are at the base and possibly powered down. Thus you have to rely on your team to protect you and you don't have a continual drip of points adding up even when there is no one there. Thus you will actually need to have defenders at sites to prevent the other team from taking limited resources while lights shuttle resources back to the cargo ship.

7. You can "steal" Resources from the enemy home base if it is left unguarded. Thus giving the last man standing on a team the choice of continuing to collect resources or sacrificing himself to save the mission and get the mother ship to leave with the resources that it has. It also means the opponents have to decide wither to kill him when they find him or not. like is used to be in assalt.

8. Remove the indicator that someone is collecting resources from the mining bases. Leave it only on your home base. This means that someone will actually have to scout and communicate back where the other team is and what they are doing.

I understand that this is a major change in the game programming for conquest. But if you want a major change in the tactics used in a game mode then it HAS to be significantly different then the assault. More capture points will not make a difference regardless of the speed at which they can be captured if I can still just use the same tactics to kill everyone else to win. It would also make two very different game modes and increase the variety in the game.

This. Just, please. This guy actually knows what to do. Follow this.

[ArmsLikeNoodles]

RightHook's post is in the same vein as my previous post on the old patch feedback

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1713754

[Corvus Antaka]

I am really liking the new conquest mode post-patch.

My most significant concern is that income is quite low across the board right now, but then I am playing without premium or my founders mechs primarily.

Adding a little more pay for capping the nodes over killing the enemy say 75,000 for a full 750 point victory, and paying the losing team their score divided by 2 in compensation for what they farmed might help focus more on the nodes than just killing the enemy.

In general however, since the patch the improved cap rate has greatly improved chances of winning if the enemy is unattentive to holding the node.

+1 for a good gamemode.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

It's another unideal temporary solution but did immediately help the problem(If only ECM could get such). The bases now have a point in the game mode where they're suppose to have a point. Unlike before, you can actually win now by focusing on base caps whether than winning the single big mindless zerg brawl for the match. Steamrolling teams that won before will now lose sometimes to points. Backcapping or stealing undefended bases is now a valuable goal or accomplishment. Best part is the boosted cash.

[Inertiaman]

RightHook, on 09 January 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

1. You can NOT win by killing the other team. If the other team collects more then you do, when all the opposing team members are dead their cargo ship blasts off and nukes the mines from orbit so no further collection is possible. They fulfill their contract and you don't so they get the better bonus. Thus the team with the most resources at the end of the game wins.

Superb post but there's one glaring problem with the above which feeds back into most of your points and that's legging. Fine - I can't kill anyone so let's all take a leg off the other team and run around cleaning up. It'll be absolutely prolific.

At it's very core - Conquest simply needs respawns to make any sense. I'm sure someone can work a non immersion way out of implementing them.

That or forget the whole abortive attempt and set to making some story/event themed maps with progressive caps a la rush or that old assault UT gametype. KOTH? Whatever to be honest.

[Regina Redshift]

RightHook, on 09 January 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Bases have a limited amount of resources, say 700 each. That means you can't just move around in a slow mass one resource at a time. You have to get forces to as many places as possible so that they are not dry when you get around to them. Thus you have more smallers battles and fewer blobs. In this case there should be no home bases, all bases should be moved and up for grabs at the start of the match.

This is a rather interesting idea.

We also need to have more possible resource points. Right now, each map has 5 points which are fixed, with each team spawning at a fixed point. I think that each map needs to have around 8~10 possible points, of which only 5 are active. The points also need to be in more tactically interesting locations. For instance the 3-way intersection in the Frozen's caves. Between the two, tall apartment buildings on River City near the Epsilon point.

That said, the Theta locations are good (except for Forest).

[Kazly]

My thoughts for improving conquest . . .


1. Change the reward system
2. Other Ideas
3. Larger Maps


Change the rewards system

Add a capture reward. Your team has just captured a base - this is a big deal. You receive a 25,000 CB and 500xp team bonus (or whatever is appropriate). This is a serious incentive to focus on a base rather than the jenner that flew by. This only happens once per base - however, the base can still change hands.

Add a significant 'lost base' penalty. The other team has taken control of the base you just captured. You receive a 25,000CB and 500xp loss. This only happens once per base - however, the base can still change hands.

Allow the 'starting' base to accumulate double resources.



Other Ideas:

A base must have at least 2 mechs to capture a base.

Instead of 'reaching' 750 resources as a win, change it to something like: Once above 500 resources, to win a team must lead by 250 resources.



Larger Maps

As it is now, a single scout can detach from the team, capture any point, and return to the team before any enemy contact is made. In fact, within the first minute of the game, usually all points are captured - and a scout has made their way around to the initial enemy capture point...

There is no advantage is splitting the team up. If a scout encounters the enemy, they can be back with their main force in 30 seconds. The whole mentality is still: Find Mechs. Kill Mechs. Maybe stop and cap something in the meantime.

I think a larger map - say 2.5 - 3 times larger at least, with the other points in place, would significantly change the mentality of conquest. Suddenly, if you're not capturing a base - and defending when need be! - then you are loosing

significant rewards. Now, keeping all 8 mechs together isn't such a great tactic, they must split into groups and change their tactics to attack/defend key points.



Edited for formatting.

Edited by Kazly, 10 January 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[Floormat]

beniliusbob, on 08 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Needs better rewards for resource win to counter the high value of kill assists. My strategy in conquest is to find a good bombardment zone to kill the idiots who go for useless resource points.

You also need to put capture wins back in so that assault isn't TDM.

Strongly agree! There isn't enough reward for capturing resources. I can earn more c-bills for destroying components and mechs than I can get for resources captured. PGI should make the bonuses higher if you win by resources and much lower if you win by defeating the enemy. Like Assault mode when you win by base capture you only get 25k or so.

In the end both modes are just team death matches.

Edited by Floormat, 10 January 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[Hellen Wheels]

RightHook, on 09 January 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

If this post is inapproprate in this forum please move it to where it should appear, but since it says all feed back will be merged here I thought I should post it here.

Unfortunatly faster cap times and payoffs are not enough to change the basic tactics of the game.
Without repair costs payoffs are less important and I often don't even notice them on the match summary screen.
Faster cap times mean that while I'm clearing someone elses cap on a base they are clearing mine on another at the same pace and neither of us can do so fast enough to change the outcome of the blob battle.

Every Conquest game plays the same for me. If you are in a heavy mech it's just another assault game. When I'm in a light mech I run to a resource point and cap it, then run to another, while some light on the other team is doing the same in a symmetrical orbit, until one of us (usually me) runs into the blob.
I have been in very few conquest games that were won by resource capture or where the tactics of TDM didn't prevail. And none that were significantly different in game play from Assault mode, as to notice the difference.

I think if you want a change in the tactics you need a drastic change in the format. Just adding more capture points will not change tactics regardless of the speed with which you capture them.

Even though the mode is called Conquest, the resource gathering is more a mining operation so make the mission and objectives reflect that.

For example:
1. You can NOT win by killing the other team. If the other team collects more then you do, when all the opposing team members are dead their cargo ship blasts off and nukes the mines from orbit so no further collection is possible. They fulfill their contract and you don't so they get the better bonus. Thus the team with the most resources at the end of the game wins.

2. Bases have a limited amount of resources, say 700 each. That means you can't just move around in a slow mass one resource at a time. You have to get forces to as many places as possible so that they are not dry when you get around to them. Thus you have more smallers battles and fewer blobs. In this case there should be no home bases, all bases should be moved and up for grabs at the start of the match. Or see # 5 below.

3. Remove the limit of resources needed to win so that the more you collect the bigger your bonus. When all the resources are used up the game ends.

4. You only capture while someone is actually at that base. Meaning you have to defend it.

To really make the mode more interesting and change the tactics:

5. You have to deliver collected resources to your home base to be "unloaded" in order to get credit. Home bases have no resources of their own, only what is brought to them. What they have at the end of the game is what you get as a bonus. You can only load up as many resources as your mech weights. or perhaps the deference between your max weight and your current weight, creating a whole new type of mech build just for resource collection. Or possibly a module that allows for additional resource collection. This means that you can't just move from one base to another, you have to protect your home base and the supply lines in between. Again spreading out the blob.

6. You only load and unload while you are at the base and possibly powered down. Thus you have to rely on your team to protect you and you don't have a continual drip of points adding up even when there is no one there. Thus you will actually need to have defenders at sites to prevent the other team from taking limited resources while lights shuttle resources back to the cargo ship.

7. You can "steal" Resources from the enemy home base if it is left unguarded. Thus giving the last man standing on a team the choice of continuing to collect resources or sacrificing himself to save the mission and get the mother ship to leave with the resources that it has. It also means the opponents have to decide wither to kill him when they find him or not. like is used to be in assalt.

8. Remove the indicator that someone is collecting resources from the mining bases. Leave it only on your home base. This means that someone will actually have to scout and communicate back where the other team is and what they are doing.

I understand that this is a major change in the game programming for conquest. But if you want a major change in the tactics used in a game mode then it HAS to be significantly different then the assault. More capture points will not make a difference regardless of the speed at which they can be captured if I can still just use the same tactics to kill everyone else to win. It would also make two very different game modes and increase the variety in the game.

This.

[RightHook]

Yesterday I played about another 2 hours of conquest. Never once did either side win by capture.
Using mostly my ECM commando. I did almost no combat just ran around capping bases to try and win by capture.
In two of the games we captured ALL the bases. One of those games we won by KO as our blob took out everyone before the cap, and the other we LOST 700 points to 2??, because they spread out found me as that last man standing, jammed my ECM and Baked me with a Missile shower. It was an exciting ending and it was fun, but still NO wins by capture.

Also full disclosure, I’m a pugger, so group tactics other then the swarm are rare. But in several games I did have the help of a few others in capping. And it still didn’t make any difference.

Now the feel of the game IS different when I’m purposely playing a light and trying to capture. But the feel is that I’m sneaking around avoiding combat. I feel like I’m not supporting my team mates who are getting blown to pieces because I’m not providing them with ECM coverage, and taking out the opposing lights. And after trying so hard to win by capture and never being able to do it, it feels like a waste of time. Especially when the rankings show me at the bottom of my team because I didn’t join the combat, and the rewards are almost nothing because there are no combat bonuses added in.

Makes me feel penniless and unloved.

[RightHook]

Also i Like Archwright's Idea of more cap points and randomly only some of them active each game. You would have to run to a point only to find out it's not active and then you have to go some place else. But I think we will need to wait for the bigger maps for that. The current maps wouldn't allow enough space between points to make it worthwhile.

How about a swamp map, with only a few solid paths, some water paths and quick sand that slows your mech to half speed. But that's for a different topic. Sorry