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About House Davion.


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#41 Strum Wealh

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:32 AM

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Telling a father that his son is still alive even though he isn't anymore, just so he will keep you supplied with military hardware isn't malicious?

It depends on whether the act was performed with malice (def.: "the intention or desire to do evil").

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I'm pretty sure from reading the novels that Joshua Marik was still alive but the doctors realized the NAIS couldn't cure his cancer. At that point Victor gave the order to go ahead and put his father's plan into motion which involved "pulling the plug" on Joshua which killed him. At that point his body was frozen so that eventually after the Fed-Com got all the parts and materials it was going to get from the FWL the fake would die and the real Joshua's body would be delivered back to Thomas Marik.

To say this entire plan was Ghoulish and Evil is an understatement. It cost Victor a war with the FWL and CC ((Which the Fed-Com lost)) and gave Katherine Steiner-Davion the justification she needed to split the Lyran portion of the Fed-Com away from the Davion side.

Not giving a father the chance to see his dying son one last time so you can continue to get war materials from his realm in exchange for "trying to cure his son of cancer" is just evil.

Underhanded? Definitely.
Ghoulish? Certainly.
Cold? Sure.
Malicious? Not necessarily.


Victor coughed into his hand to hide his surprise. "Forgive me. I did notice your approach, but I did not think you would be coming to speak with me. I haven't earned much favor with your family."
[Isis Marik] nodded sympathetically. "Joshua's death was a blow, but I very much appreciated what you did to keep him alive. I know your father started his treatments, but you could have terminated them after the Clan truce. Joshua was no longer needed as a hostage then."
"But that would have been inhuman, which could sound funny coming from me, given what happened." Victor frowned. "I bore him no ill will, and the same goes for you and your father - for your nation, too."



- Grave Covenant, ch. 19

While Victor's actions were certainly not-right, they were hardly so monstrous as "He has Thomas Marik's dying son ((who is on New Avalon getting treatment for cancer)) killed..." - phrasing that connotes a malice (which is defined by intent to do evil) that was clearly not present on Victor's part.

Could/should Victor have been honest with the elder Marik from the onset? Of course! But he didn't (and that was a failure on his part), and it cost him (and the Suns) dearly.

Moreover, there is the added irony, with regard to Thorn's comment, of the fact that it was actually Sun-Tzu Liao that made an active attempt to have Joshua Marik murdered in his hospital bed...

"If that man was connected to Justin Allard's murder, then he was an agent of the Capellan Confederation." The full import of that realization made Victor slump back against the wall. "Is Sun-Tzu stupid enough to try to kill Joshua? Something that would anger both me and Thomas? With his realm wedged between us, that is hardly a wise move."
"So it would seem, Highness."
Why would Sun-Tzu do it? What could he gain? The most he could have hoped was that the return of Joshua's body to the Free Worlds League might lead to discovery of a double. But Sun-Tzu would have needed to know about the double in advance to come up with this plan, and he couldn't have known about the switch.
Victor's jaw dropped open. My father got the idea of substituting a double for Joshua because Sun-Tzu's grandfather once plotted to replace my father with a double, and almost succeeded in putting his own puppet on the throne of the old Federated Suns. If Sun-Tzu guessed at the possibility of a substitute, or even intended to manufacture evidence to prove to Thomas that I'd put a double in his son's place ... Thomas's gratitude to Sun-Tzu would have firmly cemented their relationship.
"Curaitis, check the bodies for syringes or scalpels or anything they could have used to take tissue or blood samples."
The dark-haired security man paused for the briefest second, then nodded. "Another wrinkle."



- Bred for War, ch. 19

Victor certainly have a claim to the moral high-ground versus Thomas Marik with regard to how the Joshua Marik situation was handled.
But Sun-Tzu's arrangements to actively assassinate an already-dying child in a hospital bed, in order to spark a war from which he and his nation could (and ultimately did) benefit? That is evil.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 02 January 2014 - 07:40 AM.


#42 Alexander Steel

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:14 AM

There is no doubt that Victor feels remorse for what he did, and did so when he gave the order to have the kid put on ice and the duplicate put forward. That said, he still did it, knowing it was evil, knowing that it was cruel, knowing that it was a monstrous thing to do. He knew better, and he still did it.

The entire chain of events also led to him becoming a better person, who would never do something evil like that again for political gain again.

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But Sun-Tzu's arrangements to actively assassinate an already-dying child in a hospital bed, in order to spark a war from which he and his nation could (and ultimately did) benefit? That is evil.


I'm not sure it's that much more evil than pulling the plug on a kid, telling his father he's doing well under the treatments, in order to benefit his nation with more military hardware. Both are evil, both were done for political gain.

#43 Alexander Steel

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:19 AM

All that said it led to Thomas Marik referring to Victor as the "Malignant Dwarf" for the next 10 or so books, and that was pretty funny. So in the end I guess it was for the greater good.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 02 January 2014 - 10:19 AM.


#44 Adridos

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:29 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 02 January 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

But Sun-Tzu's arrangements to actively assassinate an already-dying child in a hospital bed, in order to spark a war from which he and his nation could (and ultimately did) benefit? That is evil.

View PostAlexander Steel, on 02 January 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

I'm not sure it's that much more evil than pulling the plug on a kid, telling his father he's doing well under the treatments, in order to benefit his nation with more military hardware. Both are evil, both were done for political gain.


In the end, both were just doing politics. There is no wrong or right, there are only winners and loosers.
Winners decide what is right and to Victor's misfortune, it was Sun-Tzu who ultimately got the better of it.

When it comes to this, Victor would've been better off if he'd actually told the truth to Marik. Sun-Tzu simply happened to be the fortunate third party involved, as Thomas himself found out about his son's demise and Victor's plan and Sun-Tzu, without actually doing a thing himself, got an ally and a perfect offensive off that broke the backbone of his greatest enemy.

#45 Alexander Steel

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 12:12 PM

Keep in mind that while the Fed-Com lost that war it was something like this.

House Marik - Clear winner. Got all their lost territory back from the 4th succession war.

House Steiner - Loser, but Katherine Steiner-Davion was the winner as she got the lands of her mother, but in so doing ended up with all of their problems ((the clan front)) and lost the Davion Military that was propping up and making the Steiner military better. The Steiner military started to backslide to their old ways pretty quickly and gave up more land to the Jade Falcons.

House Liao - Got Marik as an alley, but he was shaky at best and only willing to give up his "daughter" not really his daughter but the daughter of the real Thomas Marik to Sun-Tsu. Captured some of the land back from the Fed-Com but not all. Would need another 5-6 years to get the St. Ives back, and only then because of other political workings. In the end Thomas Marik ((the fake)) didn't give him near enough military support for a real win ((which he could have had)) and the Chaos March was formed because of this.

House Davion - Oddly enough not that much of a loser. Their loss was to go back to owning more territory than they did before the 4 Succession War, but they no longer had to worry about the Clan Front. For their leader it was a massive loss and exposed the depths he was willing to go to, but for the Fed Suns as a whole, the end result of the war wasn't that bad.

#46 Strum Wealh

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 06:14 AM

View PostLarth, on 23 February 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

*grumbles grumbles* We need a Davion mech, like the Valkyrie...stupid unseen. *whimpers* I want my Valkyrie.

Well, now that the Unseen issue seems to be coming to a resolution (as demonstrated by the Marauder and the Warhammer), you may yet have your Valkyrie... ;)

#47 DevlinCognito

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 10:50 AM

While I'd love to see it .. not sure what it would bring to MWO really. Light mech with 1, possibly 2 Missile slots and 1-2 energy, jumping mech with speed of a Panther, seems bit .. meh.

#48 C E Dwyer

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 05:35 PM

View PostTermius, on 12 February 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

I never knew which faction to join when I started playing MWO. I settled for Davion after reading a bit of the lore relating to the factions, and due to my love of the Centurion. Is there anything about House Davion I should know? (Other then the Autocannon obsession)

Hanse Davion thinks he's King Arthur

#49 C E Dwyer

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 05:42 PM

View PostDevlinCognito, on 22 October 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

While I'd love to see it .. not sure what it would bring to MWO really. Light mech with 1, possibly 2 Missile slots and 1-2 energy, jumping mech with speed of a Panther, seems bit .. meh.


But remember the hard point inflation, think Huginn that never runs out of weapons..think Happiness





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