179 replies to this topic

[zverofaust]

I'm amazed that this permanent destruction of Mech equipment at complete random is still around as an integral part of this game, a feature seen nowhere else in the entirety of even mediocre competitive game titles.

Let me drop a very simple, infallible truth: Having random, permanent and game-changing effects in a competitive multiplayer game is one of the most blatant taboos imaginable in the genre. There's no getting around that fact.

Please stop adhering to this ridiculous, inappropriate and out-of-place gimmick from a 30 year old tabletop strategy game. I'd really like MWO to be successful and it's heading down the right path, and you guys have made some very awesome improvements since October in tweaking and overhauling various aspects of the game with that goal in mind. But these hold-overs do nothing to benefit the game and serve as little more than blunt obstacles to both casual enjoyment and serious competitiveness, and it's time to re-evaluate their implementation.

With that in mind, here are some generalized suggestions on how the system can be improved:

• Temporary Effect: The loss of functionality of the damaged equipment is temporary.
  
• "Analog" or Reduced Impact Effect: Rather than the arbitrarily "binary" aspect of the feature that determines whether a piece of equipment is "working" (1) or "broken" (0), have a more "analog" approach where functionality of the equipment gradually degrades the more it is damaged. Absolute destruction is unnecessary, as this result is obviously achieved by destruction of the component housing the equipment itself.

I like the idea of "battle damage"; it indeed adds more depth to combat than simply giving every Mech a healthbar to chew through. But in a competitive online game with no respawning or "reset button", having permanent, random events heavily affecting your Mech adds nothing to gameplay -- on the contrary, it takes from both the casual and competitive aspects of the game by frustrating people with arbitrary unavoidable dice-roll gimmicks and making real competition no more legitimate than a game of dice. There is no way for a player to "play around" or adapt their playstyle to losing a weapon. It's simply gone.



Temporary or Reduced Impact effects on the other hand allow players to adapt to random but manageable battlefield conditions. It confronts the player with adversity whilemaintaining his ability to overcome that diversity, by adjusting their playstyle, tactics and strategies to this new condition, and thereby expands upon the tactical and strategic aspects of the game where the current dynamic allows nothing but solemn indignation and begrudging acceptance of the player's unavoidable fate.

Thank you for your time.

Signed,
Zverofaust

Edited by zverofaust, 13 February 2013 - 01:13 PM.

[Bryan Kerensky]

Everything feels fine to me. But how is this related to Atlai with AC/20s again?

[Applecrow]

While were at it, lets get rid of this whole "Mech Destroyed" mechanic. It totally brings the match to an end for me and breaks my immersion.

[Tennex]

they claim to be a competitive game.

yet they balance OP items like the gausscat and the ECM with RNG.

other competitive games are moving away from RNG. in LoL (devs claim to play LoL) random on hit effects are being replaced by "every # hit this effect occurs."


binary gameplay is an issue in MWO design.


LRMs are binary in the absence/presence of ECM.
Light mech gameplay is binary with presence of ECM/sSRMs.
OP components are binary in random complete destruction.

if you want this game to be competitive. at least give players a chance. when faced with these items. you say adapt. but how will a LRM boat adapt when there are ECM mechs on the field(in a pug setting, since most new plyaers will be)? the only way to adapt is to not use LRMs. and thats just not good gameplay nor is it very balanced.

its like a on/off light switch. either you are very effective or useless. and this is decided before the match begins. wheres the strategy in that ?

Edited by Tennex, 13 February 2013 - 09:15 PM.

[Bryan Kerensky]

Tennex, on 13 February 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

they claim to be a competitive game.

yet they balance OP items like the gausscat and the ECM with RNG.

The gausscat is far from OP.

[Daiichidoku]

zverofaust, on 13 February 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

I'm amazed that this permanent destruction of Mech components at complete random is still around as an integral part of this game, a feature seen nowhere else in the entirety of even mediocre competitive game titles.

Let me drop a very simple, infallible truth: Having random, permanent and game-changing effects in a competitive multiplayer game is one of the most blatant taboos imaginable in the genre. There's no getting around that fact.

MWO, pioneering incredible new gaming experience!!!

[Tennex]

Bryan Kerensky, on 13 February 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

The gausscat is far from OP.

so why did they nerf it in such a manner. and i don't know about you but i get 500-700 damage with gausskat and 2-4 kills per game

Edited by Tennex, 13 February 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Viper69]

Any weapon can be disabled if it takes damage. What makes the 20 so easy to knock out is the amount of space it takes up. So how again is this imbalanced? Put a machine gun or an ac5 or a couple for that matter.

[Enig]

Hey while we're at it, why don't we just add respawning, grenades, make all mechs run the same speed (and have the same health and hit boxes), turning speeds etc.

You know what, we should totally add kill cams too. Hrm, hey what about the integration of zombie game modes! We can fight hordes of armless centurions coming at us with flamers in their CT. (Wait that one actually sounds fun scratch that from the sarcastic list)

Clearly OP has not played a Mechwarrior game before.

No seriously, there are games out there that shart all over the genre that you can play. Don't screw with the mold.

Edited by Enig, 13 February 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Bryan Kerensky]

Tennex, on 13 February 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

they claim to be a competitive game.

yet they balance OP items like the gausscat and the ECM with RNG.


binary gameplay is an issue in MWO design.


LRMs are binary in the absence/presence of ECM.
Light mech gameplay is binary with presence of ECM/sSRMs.
OP components are binary in random complete destruction.

if you want this game to be competitive. at least give players a chance. when faced with these items. you say adapt. but how will a LRM boat adapt when there are ECM mechs on the field(in a pug setting, since most new plyaers will be)? the only way to adapt is to not use LRMs. and thats just not good gameplay nor is it very balanced.

You adapt by not boating LRMs. You adapt by staying in reasonable distance to your team. You adapt by calling out if you are getting attacked. You adapt by going after ECM mechs first or calling them out in chat. You adapt by bringing in some direct fire weaponry to at least fend off these pest.

The issue in MWO is that people give themselves too many reasons as to why they should have an easy time when they fail.

[Tennex]

Bryan Kerensky, on 13 February 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

You adapt by not boating LRMs. You adapt by staying in reasonable distance to your team. You adapt by calling out if you are getting attacked. You adapt by going after ECM mechs first or calling them out in chat. You adapt by bringing in some direct fire weaponry to at least fend off these pest.

The issue in MWO is that people give themselves too many reasons as to why they should have an easy time when they fail.

not using 1/3 of the game's weapon system is required to adapt. yet they still claim ECM is not OP. do these people hear what they are saying.

butl lets counter a 1.5 ton item with teamwork! Voicechat and TAG!!!

Edited by Tennex, 13 February 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Enig]

Tennex, on 13 February 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

not using 1/3 of the game's weapon system is required to adapt. but ECM is still not OP they claim.

Please clarify your sentence. Are you stating that an expressed exaggeration of the ratio of weapon systems can not be used against ECM?

Don't make me give you the real ratio of weapons that require a lock, because it sure as **** isn't one third.

[Bryan Kerensky]

Tennex, on 13 February 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

so why did they nerf it in such a manner. and i don't know about you but i get 500-700 damage with gausskat and 2-4 kills per game

Firstly, destructible components was something that was coming anyways, it wasn't a particular nerf, it was introduction of a mechanic that affected every type of component and chassis. Secondly, I have pulled such damage and kills in a match in a gausscat as I have gone against them both in closed beta and open beta and learned how to beat them. In fact I would lower that damage amount, I pride myself on accuracy and 500-700 damage for 2-4 kills is shows embarrassing inaccuracy.

Tennex, on 13 February 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

not using 1/3 of the game's weapon system is required to adapt. but ECM is still not OP they claim.'

butl lets counter a 1.5 ton item with teamwork! Voicechat and TAG!!!

Teamwork in a team game? What is this?

[Zero Neutral]

zverofaust, on 13 February 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

I'm amazed that this permanent destruction of Mech components at complete random is still around as an integral part of this game, a feature seen nowhere else in the entirety of even mediocre competitive game titles.

Let me drop a very simple, infallible truth: Having random, permanent and game-changing effects in a competitive multiplayer game is one of the most blatant taboos imaginable in the genre. There's no getting around that fact.

Please stop adhering to this ridiculous, inappropriate and out-of-place gimmick from a 30 year old tabletop strategy game. I'd really like MWO to be successful and it's heading down the right path, and you guys have made some very awesome improvements since October in tweaking and overhauling various aspects of the game with that goal in mind. But these hold-overs do nothing to benefit the game and serve as little more than blunt obstacles to both casual enjoyment and serious competitiveness, and it's time to re-evaluate their implementation.

With that in mind, here are some generalized suggestions on how the system can be improved:

• Temporary Effect: The loss of functionality of the damaged equipment is temporary.
  
• "Analog" or Reduced Impact Effect: Rather than the arbitrarily "binary" aspect of the feature that determines whether a piece of equipment is "working" (1) or "broken" (0), have a more "analog" approach where functionality of the equipment gradually degrades the more it is damaged. Absolute destruction is unnecessary, as this result is obviously achieved by destruction of the component housing the equipment itself.

I like the idea of "battle damage"; it indeed adds more depth to combat than simply giving every Mech a healthbar to chew through. But in a competitive online game with no respawning or "reset button", having permanent, random events heavily affecting your Mech adds nothing to gameplay -- on the contrary, it takes from both the casual and competitive aspects of the game by frustrating people with arbitrary unavoidable dice-roll gimmicks and making real competition no more legitimate than a game of dice. There is no way for a player to "play around" or adapt their playstyle to losing a weapon. It's simply gone.




Temporary or Reduced Impact effects on the other hand allow players to adapt to random but manageable battlefield conditions. It confronts the player with adversity whilemaintaining his ability to overcome that diversity, by adjusting their playstyle, tactics and strategies to this new condition, and thereby expands upon the tactical and strategic aspects of the game where the current dynamic allows nothing but solemn indignation and begrudging acceptance of the player's unavoidable fate.

Thank you for your time.

Signed,
Zverofaust

"Some one blew up my AC/20 and now I am sad."

Happens all the time, I'd get used to it... AC/20 have been exploding easily since forever.

A pilot needs to build their mech with the anticipation of non-ideal scenarios. i.e. LRM boat getting harassed at close range, or even an AS7 losing its' AC/20, (it has two torso's you know, in fact, the other torso with the SRM does more damage.)

I can't take this thread very seriously because you are just mad that you are losing your AC/20 and can't DAKKA DAKKA any moar. Stop losing your AC/20 maybe?

Edited by Zero Neutral, 13 February 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Tennex]

Enig, on 13 February 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Please clarify your sentence. Are you stating that an expressed exaggeration of the ratio of weapon systems can not be used against ECM?

Don't make me give you the real ratio of weapons that require a lock, because it sure as **** isn't one third.

even if ECM ruins the use of 1 item. it is OP. split hairs till u got them coming out of your *** it don't make a difference.

even if just 1 item; LRMs can no llonger be effectlively used with the presence of a 1.5 ton item on the field.

[Zerethon]

Tennex, on 13 February 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

if you want this game to be competitive. at least give players a chance. when faced with these items. you say adapt. but how will a LRM boat adapt when there are ECM mechs on the field(in a pug setting, since most new plyaers will be)? the only way to adapt is to not use LRMs. and thats just not good gameplay nor is it very balanced.

In competitive, anyone with LRM's is also running TAG and backup weapons.

My personal C4 for instance, has 2xASRM6, 2xALRM15, TAG, and a medium laser.

If ECM doesn't get on me, i can TAG and rain shots on open targets and totally ruin a defense line and force them to draw back

If ECM gets on me it has to watch out for the SRM/ML Spank and if it starts to run, it also has to watch for potential LRM fire. Not to mention teammates.

Essentially, if more pugs bothered to learn tactics and stop trying to play this as countermechstrike online the games would be a lot better. But they've been babied into easymode all their life.

[Enig]

Tennex, on 13 February 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

even if ECM ruins the use of 1 item. it is OP. split hairs till u got them coming out of your *** it don't make a difference.

even if just 1 item; LRMs can no llonger be effectlively used with the presence of a 1.5 ton item on the field.

Hahaha, okay now I know you're just being silly, to put it in a way that isn't censored.

EDIT: My ability to move in a light when someone's about to Guass me is OP, nerf movement because it nullifies some weapons in the hands of a good pilot.

Edited by Enig, 13 February 2013 - 01:52 PM.

[Ragor]

Enig, on 13 February 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Wow, this OP has never played a Mechwarrior game.

EDIT: Also, why add a signature to your post when you already have a signature attached to your post?

Oh, he did. Zvero was one of the most famous flamers/haters/spammers on the MWLL forums.
He was always bitching about what he doens't like and/or how he leaves the game. Over months.
In game he was famous as well for insulting other players and starting his usual 'this is all BS' topics...

A real bundle of joy.

Really glad to see he found a new home.

Edited by Ragor, 13 February 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[Tennex]

Bryan Kerensky, on 13 February 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Firstly, destructible components was something that was coming anyways, it wasn't a particular nerf, it was introduction of a mechanic that affected every type of component and chassis. Secondly, I have pulled such damage and kills in a match in a gausscat as I have gone against them both in closed beta and open beta and learned how to beat them. In fact I would lower that damage amount, I pride myself on accuracy and 500-700 damage for 2-4 kills is shows embarrassing inaccuracy.

Teamwork in a team game? What is this?

difference between me and you is i don't take lie to myself when i'm taking advantage of something broken

[Kylere]

TLDR: OP wants items to not be destroyed.

My response: Meh