48 replies to this topic

[Ilithi Dragon]

GrizzlyViking, on 28 May 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

I think you'd really like Ventrillo for this very reason. Vent allows set up of separate rooms and those rooms can be ghost monitored so the leader can keep up with everything that is going on with all 3 Lances. It is a lot more customizable than any in-game voice I have experience with.

Yeah, teamspeak has similar options and features. Again, though, as vulpes noted, is that there are a number of different tools available. Catamount, Vulpes and I mainly use Skype, and catamount and I use Skype to converse with our main group of friends, though we have occasionally used Google voice chat. Back-in-the-day in Mercs I and my clan mainly used TS, though some other clans mainly used Vent, or ran both, or both and others.

External VOIP tools are good for clans, but for general players not all in the same clan or group or association that don't have the same main VOIP tool, an internal VOIP tool is necessary.

[TwoFaced]

I am kind of glad not to see it. I would rather use the 3rd party applications. I have found they work a lot better than what is normally in this sort of game.

[Toothman]

Ilithi Dragon, on 28 May 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Exactly what Catamount said. I played BF2142 for about the same amount of time, and the in-game VOIP system was great, exactly because it allowed players to communicate and coordinate their actions as a squad. Like Catamount, I saw a minimum of the COD-style VOIP spamming; I'm pretty sure it happened once or twice, but very rarely, and the way the BF2142 VOIP system was set up, it very easily allowed squad leaders to kick offensive players from the channel.

Which is probably a huge part of why the VOIP spam never caught on (in addition to the different player type the game attracted): In BF2142, VOIP was set up by squads. You could only get into a VOIP channel if you joined a squad, and then you would only have access to that squad's VOIP channel. You couldn't broadcast to the entire team, just the 6-man squad you were in, and the squad leader had a set of tools to very easily kick and block you from the squad if you tried to troll.

If MWO employs VOIP in a similar manner, with separate channels for each Lance (and an additional 'command' channel exclusive to Lance leaders and the team commander), VOIP-spamming would be very limited, and we would have a very effective tool for communication and coordination with people who aren't already our friends in prearranged play groups.

Personally, I would also like to see MWO take that a step or two further. VOIP could also be incorporated into their command and control and electronics warfare mechanics, with in-game VOIP broadcasts putting out information that can be used by enemy sensors to track a mech, and with some EW equipment including jammers that could interfere with or even completely block enemy communications under the right circumstances.

The devs wanted to do just what you are saying. Problem is, who cares if voice channels are jammed when you can just hit your other transmit button and talk on vent/TS/xfire

[Ilithi Dragon]

Toothman, on 28 May 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

The devs wanted to do just what you are saying. Problem is, who cares if voice channels are jammed when you can just hit your other transmit button and talk on vent/TS/xfire

Well, for clan vs clan matches, the heavy use of external VOIP programs will be a serious work-around, though both sides will have the same advantage of being coordinated through an external VOIP program.

However, for general matches that aren't pre-arranged matches between opposing clans, this advantage will be spotty at best. You might get two or three or maybe four players on a team that are running together in an external VOIP, but they won't have the ability to communicate with other players on the team, just amongst themselves.

There's no way to get around external VOIP usage, but in my own experience, in games that have functional VOIP systems, the internal VOIP is heavily used, even by people running in external VOIP, to communicate with the rest of the team that isn't in their small group.

[Torrix]

Gremlich Johns, on 28 May 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Obvious to whom and why?

Obvious to anyone who has played team based games and knows it's better to talk to your team than to type to them.

[Jaegerwolf]

If this was a standard boxed game then just relying on players having the initiative to use TS, Vent, etc., would probably be fine. If they're going to spend 60$+ on a game then its not out there to assume they'd spend the time to download and set up the proper VOIP.

The problem is MWO is a Free 2 Play. This means it is, I'm assuming from experience, its going to be targeting a different kind of player group due to its business profile. While they're still have the hard core fans who will play enough to bother with 3rd party VOIPs, they'll need the 'casual' folks to remain engaged long enough that they want to spend money and maybe become hard core fans.

Unless the built in audio cues and messaging they've said they've built in are VERY good, a built in VOIP seems to be essential if for nothing else to be available as a default option for companies who are not from the same unit, a communication Switzerland so we don't have 10 minute arguments about which VOIP to use each match. To be honest, if you were told there was this cool free game you can play, but once you download it you'll need to go download something ELSE entirely just to play it properly, would you bother when there are already a bunch of other good free games out there?

[GrizzlyViking]

Jaegerwolf, on 28 May 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

If this was a standard boxed game then just relying on players having the initiative to use TS, Vent, etc., would probably be fine. If they're going to spend 60$+ on a game then its not out there to assume they'd spend the time to download and set up the proper VOIP.

The problem is MWO is a Free 2 Play. This means it is, I'm assuming from experience, its going to be targeting a different kind of player group due to its business profile. While they're still have the hard core fans who will play enough to bother with 3rd party VOIPs, they'll need the 'casual' folks to remain engaged long enough that they want to spend money and maybe become hard core fans.

Unless the built in audio cues and messaging they've said they've built in are VERY good, a built in VOIP seems to be essential if for nothing else to be available as a default option for companies who are not from the same unit, a communication Switzerland so we don't have 10 minute arguments about which VOIP to use each match. To be honest, if you were told there was this cool free game you can play, but once you download it you'll need to go download something ELSE entirely just to play it properly, would you bother when there are already a bunch of other good free games out there?

You make some good points. The good news is that the Devs do have VOIP on the "to-do" list. It is not a question of if they will be doing it, but a question of when.

Edited by GrizzlyViking, 28 May 2012 - 07:11 PM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Which is definitely good news. Hopefully it won't be too long after launch until we get it.

[Catamount]

GrizzlyViking, on 28 May 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

That is pretty much how we used to weed out the inexperienced. If they siad something like "What is TeamSpeak?" then we knew it was time to find someone else. heheheheh

As for me, I will likely DL both clients and anything else people decide to use so I can jump in to any VOIP as needed. I have plenty of HD space and the clients do not take up much,

Using Vent is always an option to be certain, but you get the same thing with an in-game VOIP, only you don't have to give EVERY SINGLE NEW PLAYER you encounter info so they have to minimize and then enter it to join your server, or heaven forbid, run into other players runnning a voip server of their own and get into a "no you should join ours" argument, because all that is taken care of. VOIP is joined automatically. You also then get tiered communication of things are done right, again, set up instantly, rather than having to take time to do it every game, with thousands of disparate VOIP servers run by different groups across half a dozen different programs.

Honestly, just look at BF3. It's the sequel to one of the more popular squad-based games out there, with one of the best VOIP implementations out there, and yet without its own implementation, do you know how many people running around with Vent servers I see? Pretty much zero. Besides, I don't want to have to read vent info off an ingame chat box, then minimize the game to enter it (probably flipping back and fourth once or twice just to get it right), all to join a server for one match, only to have to do it over again the moment I'm playing with a new group of people.

Vent's great for what it is, but I think an in-game VOIP is just vastly superior, if done right, not to mention one doesn't have to pay monthly for a server

GrizzlyViking, on 28 May 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

You make some good points. The good news is that the Devs do have VOIP on the "to-do" list. It is not a question of if they will be doing it, but a question of when.

Which is really all one can ask I suppose

Edited by Catamount, 28 May 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[GrizzlyViking]

Ilithi Dragon, on 28 May 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

Which is definitely good news. Hopefully it won't be too long after launch until we get it.

BTW, I do like the Skype idea. I've used Skype groups for other things, but not for gaming yet.

[Catamount]

GrizzlyViking, on 28 May 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

BTW, I do like the Skype idea. I've used Skype groups for other things, but not for gaming yet.

Oh it's fantastic for quick communication in small groups (5 or less?).

Getting in contact is quick, and the call quality is very good.

Ilithi Dragon, on 28 May 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

in my own experience, in games that have functional VOIP systems, the internal VOIP is heavily used, even by people running in external VOIP, to communicate with the rest of the team that isn't in their small group.

You mean how like in BF2142, we always found ourselves in Skype and 2142 VOIP?

Edited by Catamount, 28 May 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Catamount, on 28 May 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Oh it's fantastic for quick communication in small groups (5 or less?).

Getting in contact is quick, and the call quality is very good.

Indeed. It does get a little problematic when you get more than 4 or 5 in a call (and it can get confusing and hard to understand if all 4 or 5 try to talk at once), but, then, you're going to be running into that problem with just about any VOIP program. It has some downsides to server-based tools like Vent and TS, since there's no dedicated server/room for people to join, but for small groups, it works great.

Catamount, on 28 May 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

You mean how like in BF2142, we always found ourselves in Skype and 2142 VOIP?

Hahaha, yes, exactly.

Speaking of Skype, why are you not on? It doesn't take 4 hours to reinstall Windows...

[soulfire]

ah different title same horse beating did want to add this TS is free if your just gamers and are not being paid to
play.

[Catamount]

Ilithi Dragon, on 28 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

Speaking of Skype, why are you not on? It doesn't take 4 hours to reinstall Windows...

Yes it does, when you're on a 5400RPM hard drive and you're running a key that's only good for upgrade installs (which means to use it you have to install Windows 7 twice to make it think it's been "upgraded" )

[Naduk]

right so you guys want me to install , mumble , skype, team speak, ventrilo and anything else people are using
and each time i join a game from a solo que i have to find out who is on com's and ask to be let into their voip server

ok so assuming there is only 1 group of players on com's and not 3 or 4 groups
AND assuming they will allow me to join the voip server (something most units simply wont do)
i now have to alt-tab and load the appropriate voip program, then i have to get your server details put in
then i have to make sure my audio settings are right for that particular program and that one of the others has not changed its setup
(skype likes to do this it affects audio settings used by other programs)

assuming all of this goes with out a hitch, i need to find what channel/room the people currently in the game are in

i must do all of this as quickly as possible because i am likely facing a game launch timer for mech and load out selection
something i will need to coordinate with the rest of the team also

so assuming ALL of those things happened, the game goes for say 20min
then i must do all of it again


yeah, i dont think ill be doing any of that garbage

[Ilithi Dragon]

Catamount, on 28 May 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Yes it does, when you're on a 5400RPM hard drive and you're running a key that's only good for upgrade installs (which means to use it you have to install Windows 7 twice to make it think it's been "upgraded" )

Lies. Get on Skype. Our Aussie friend is out wandering around in the wastelands, chasing down bandits for fuel and hunting giant prehistoric birds for their eggs to feed his family, well outside of cell range, so you don't need to hide from him.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Naduk, on 28 May 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

right so you guys want me to install , mumble , skype, team speak, ventrilo and anything else people are using
and each time i join a game from a solo que i have to find out who is on com's and ask to be let into their voip server

ok so assuming there is only 1 group of players on com's and not 3 or 4 groups
AND assuming they will allow me to join the voip server (something most units simply wont do)
i now have to alt-tab and load the appropriate voip program, then i have to get your server details put in
then i have to make sure my audio settings are right for that particular program and that one of the others has not changed its setup
(skype likes to do this it affects audio settings used by other programs)

assuming all of this goes with out a hitch, i need to find what channel/room the people currently in the game are in

i must do all of this as quickly as possible because i am likely facing a game launch timer for mech and load out selection
something i will need to coordinate with the rest of the team also

so assuming ALL of those things happened, the game goes for say 20min
then i must do all of it again


yeah, i dont think ill be doing any of that garbage

Yeah, you've pretty much highlighted the main reason why in-game VOIP is still preferable. External VOIP is great for playing with groups of friends, but if you're playing with more than just your established group of friends, you need more VOIP options to coordinate with other players, and there are too many assorted tools that are regularly used for everyone to have all tools set up and keep track of when to use what and who's using what server, etc.

[cipher]

If you come from a 1st-person shooter background, you'll be disappointed about the lack of in-game VoIP. At the same time, I'd probably disable in-game VoIP since I don't want to listen to a bunch of console jockeys flinging insults and smack talk when I play MWO.

If you come from an MMO or War Strategy gaming background, then this isn't a problem as you probably have your own guild/clan or can find one and use their VoIP of choice.

Really, I don't see MWO needing in-game VoIP, even with all of the debate and discussion mentioned above.

[Gremlich Johns]

Torrix, on 28 May 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Obvious to anyone who has played team based games and knows it's better to talk to your team than to type to them.

That is just a lame uninstructive argument. If there is an alternative, then in-game voice is unnecessary. That IS obvious to everybody else who knows anything about 3rd party communications applications. If you are on a pub team, then this could present a problem if you do not have TS, vent, mumble or whatever installed. Established teams do not have this issue. Plus, if more than one of your teammates are in a pub, you can always invite the people on your team to join you on comms "outside" of the game. Guess you guys never thought of that? Who wants to listen to chat not pertaining to the match anyway? I do not.

For what it is worth, I have been playing video games possibly longer than you have been able to touch a keyboard, so you presume much to think I do not know how to effectively communicate. 20 Years of Military Service taught me much about that.

Teenagers, sheesh.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 29 May 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

cipher, on 29 May 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

If you come from a 1st-person shooter background, you'll be disappointed about the lack of in-game VoIP. At the same time, I'd probably disable in-game VoIP since I don't want to listen to a bunch of console jockeys flinging insults and smack talk when I play MWO.

If you come from an MMO or War Strategy gaming background, then this isn't a problem as you probably have your own guild/clan or can find one and use their VoIP of choice.

Really, I don't see MWO needing in-game VoIP, even with all of the debate and discussion mentioned above.

Technically, no game strictly NEEDS in-game VOIP, or any in-game means of communication. That's not the point. The point is that in-game VOIP, if implemented properly, is a tool that will give a great boost to the functionality and usability and enjoyability of the game. It is not strictly necessary, but the quality of gameplay difference between having a well-implemented VOIP and having no VOIP is sufficient that it is effectively a necessity.

Now, if improperly done, VOIP can be a pita, and COD is a classic example of how to NOT do in-game VOIP. One single channel for the entire team that everyone always has access to is NOT the way to do in-game VOIP. Split the VOIP up into multiple channels, with one channel exclusive to each squad, and a separate channel reserved for the squad leaders and team leader, so you don't get the VOIP-spamming trolls, and the chaos of having 20 different people in 30 different situations talk about 80 different things at once.

Gremlich Johns, on 29 May 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

That is just a lame uninstructive argument. If there is an alternative, then in-game voice is unnecessary. That IS obvious to everybody else who knows anything about 3rd party communications applications. If you are on a pub team, then this could present a problem if you do not have TS, vent, mumble or whatever installed. Established teams do not have this issue. Plus, if more than one of your teammates are in a pub, you can always invite the people on your team to join you on comms "outside" of the game. Guess you guys never thought of that? Who wants to listen to chat not pertaining to the match anyway? I do not.

For what it is worth, I have been playing video games possibly longer than you have been able to touch a keyboard, so you presume much to think I do not know how to effectively communicate. 20 Years of Military Service taught me much about that.

Teenagers, sheesh.

And you've failed to grasp the problems we've outlined already in this thread. As noted, clan vs clan matches are not the serious problem here, as any clan of snot-nosed 2-year-olds has some sort of 3rd-party VOIP set up for their clan. The issue is when you're playing in general/pub matches with a mix of players from different clans or who are unaffiliated with any clan. There are a half-dozen different VOIP programs that players would have to keep running and straight, and then argue over which one the team or lance is going to use.

And if BF3 is any example, none will get used. I've seen some servers that run information for TS or Vent servers now and then, but I've never seen anyone say, "Hey, get on TS!" or "Come join our Vent server so we can coordinate properly!" I've never seen anyone even mention it at all in chat, just the occasional serverwide announcement on some servers. And 99 times out of 100, most players I see are running around with little evidence of VOIP coordination.

3rd-party tools are a hassle to deal with outside of specific friend/clan groups, and a lack of in-game VOIP gives a decisive advantage to those players who are coordinated over those who aren't.


Also, playing the, "I'm an old geezer who's seen everything and thinks everyone who doesn't agree with my opinion is an ignorant and uppity teenager" card is rather unimpressive. Not everyone you talk to on the internet is a teenager, and the population of this forum tends to have an average age that is notably higher than the average for the general internet. Most of the people you talk to on here are NOT, in fact, teenagers, and will take offense at being called such.