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If You Can't Beat Ecm, Join Ecm.


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#1 Lubalin

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:57 PM

Since the patch, I've been experimenting with ways to counter ecm, specifically on fast/light mechs. I solo drop exclusively. Here's what I tried:

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Jenner jr7-d
1x er ppc
2x ssrm2
TAG
1st tier sensor module
(I have an xl300, full elite tier, upgrades, etc.)

I have really struggled to hit fast mechs with the ppc in order to disable the ecm. I am used to leading, such as with ballistic weapons. When I do manage a hit, I struggle to get a lock before the 4 seconds are up so I can fire my ssrms. All the while, I'm taking ssrm hits from the enemy. Maintaining contact with TAG is literally impossible unless we're both standing still.

However, I destroy ddc ecm atlases in this thing. So it does counter that fairly well, but really anyone who brings a ppc can hit an atlas. My main frustration lies with light/fast ecm mechs. I got shot down by their ssrms in my jenners so many times pre-patch it was insane. So I wanted to try running a counter on the same mech.

It works, but really only if the mech is slower than me and/or the enemy pilot makes a mistake. Most 3L's have upgraded engines too and can match my 150kph.

So I'm deeming this tactic as not enough. I still get ripped apart fast if I can't hit with the ppc.

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Then, I thought, if you can't beat em, join em. So I built the cheesiest build I could think of: a commando w/ ecm and ssrm. It was cheaper than a raven, too, for the sake of testing.

Commando com-2d
ecm
3x ssrm2
beagle active probe
1st tier sensor module
xl210, no mech trees unlocked

I am able to effectively destroy enemy light ecm mechs in 1v1. It's so easy. It shouldn't be this easy. Really. Oh, and I take down light non-ecm mechs even faster. Other mechs are fairly easy to harass too.

So, I decided to only run this mech with ecm in counter mode so I'm not becoming what I hate. Last thing I want to do is grief other jenner pilots.

But the thing is, usually when I encounter a light ecm mech, there are 2-3 at once. So my counter effectively does nothing, and I get focus fired because I'm obviously gunning for them. It ends badly.

So I'm deeming this tactic insufficient too. ECM is not a sufficient counter to ECM. Basically, if you're worried about ECM, you have to run it on multiple mechs at once. This is not really possible as a PUGer. For PUGers, ecm invalidates most builds on light mechs.

-----

So that's it. I burned about 5M cBills to learn there's no realistically consistent way to counter ecm on a light mech at an average skill level.

And just in advance, L2P and join a premade replies are silly. This game encourages multiple play styles, so balance should apply to all of them.

Cheers,
Lubalin

P.s. Sorry to those I've been rude to in game, namely premades and ecm light pilots. Not my proudest moments.

#2 Lubalin

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:17 PM

Edit: I don't know why, but this got completely buried.

#3 Velba

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:21 PM

It got buried because no one cares.

Edited by Niko Snow, 22 February 2013 - 05:02 PM.


#4 Sug

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:23 PM

I've been having good luck with my TBT-7M with 2 ppcs and 3 ssrms. 300xl.

Didn't take erppcs because of heat issues. Plus normal ppcs will take out ecm just as good under 90m.

Just use the ppcs to take out their ecm and blow them to hell with the ssrms as they circle you. Pretty easy.

View PostVelba, on 22 February 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

It got buried because no one cares your not good enough to beat ECM.



lol i didn't want to say it.

#5 Tennex

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:24 PM

every week they keep ECM in the game like it is it chips away at their reputation.
but i guess they figure the people who will leave because of imbalances have already left.

but if ur shoping for a mech that can beat the 3L i'd suggest another 3L, or a streak commando.

Edited by Tennex, 22 February 2013 - 12:26 PM.


#6 Lubalin

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:25 PM

View PostVelba, on 22 February 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

It got buried because no one cares your not good enough to beat ECM.


It was buried with 0 views.

#7 Velba

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:30 PM

View PostLubalin, on 22 February 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:


It was buried with 0 views.


Oh my bad,

It's because people REALLY don't care about your inability to counter ECM.

There are literally hundreds of these threads on this forum. No one even needed to click on it, to know what it was about.

This forum really is THAT disinterested on the topic.

#8 Mister Blastman

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:33 PM

Streak whores wouldn't be as much of a problem if the streaks didn't blur your vision so bad.

#9 Kyone Akashi

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:35 PM

View PostVelba, on 22 February 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

It got buried because no one cares your not good enough to beat ECM.
From my observations, one cannot be "good enough to beat ECM". One can only be "bad enough to get beaten in spite of ECM".

View PostLubalin, on 20 February 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Here's what I tried:
Jenner jr7-d
1x er ppc
2x ssrm2
TAG
1st tier sensor module
(I have an xl300, full elite tier, upgrades, etc.)
Dammit! I was about to try out a similar build I tinkered with last night in the webite mechlab, just without TAG and with an ERPPC plus level 2 sensor module. Doesn't sound as if it would pay off tho. :D


View PostMister Blastman, on 22 February 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Streak whores wouldn't be as much of a problem if the streaks didn't blur your vision so bad.
Meh, SRMs do that too. I still think the main issue is the silly flight model they have right now.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 22 February 2013 - 12:43 PM.


#10 Velba

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:43 PM

View PostKyone Akashi, on 22 February 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

From my observations, one cannot be "good enough to beat ECM". One can only be "bad enough to get beaten in spite of ECM".

I'd have to ask you to observe some better players, because man, I've seen matches where teams with ECM, get crushed by a team with no ECM. Maybe the ECM pilots were horrible, who knows.

I always just shoot the mech with ECM. A lot. Until it falls over; dead.

#11 Slab Squathrust

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:48 PM

I think the main issue with ecm lights is that they give it variants that are already the best of the model. Many agree that streaks are too good, but then they say the variants packing ecm are fine, even though these are the same variants that have the most missile hard points. It allows them to run streak heavy and be immune to them at the same time unless they run into an opponent that is also packing ecm. It is no surprise then when they run roughshod over the other non ecm lights.

#12 Kyone Akashi

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:53 PM

View PostVelba, on 22 February 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

I'd have to ask you to observe some better players, because man, I've seen matches where teams with ECM, get crushed by a team with no ECM. Maybe the ECM pilots were horrible, who knows.
Was that ECM in a 3L? Was said 3L attacked and beaten by another Light?

I have zero issues with taking down a DDC. Or ECM-Cicadas. Or ECM-Spiders. I also have no problem taking down non-ECM-Lights. The problems I have with 3Ls and the massive gap in difficulty between that and other opponents just leads me to believe a certain ... advantage that is very, very hard to overcome in a non-ECM-Light, relying more on luck rather than skill.

What do you pilot, and what's your ping?


View PostSlab Squathrust, on 22 February 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I think the main issue with ecm lights is that they give it variants that are already the best of the model.
If they would just make it available to everyone (that they didn't goes to show how much the devs themselves believe it is balanced), it would at least allow everyone to use a horribly unbalanced weapon system again rather than limiting it to a few.

And I say that whilst having used an SSRM launcher for many months as well, even before it was buffed.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 22 February 2013 - 12:56 PM.


#13 Velba

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:05 PM

View PostKyone Akashi, on 22 February 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Was that ECM in a 3L? Was said 3L attacked and beaten by another Light?

I have zero issues with taking down a DDC. Or ECM-Cicadas. Or ECM-Spiders. I also have no problem taking down non-ECM-Lights. The problems I have with 3Ls and the massive gap in difficulty between that and other opponents just leads me to believe a certain ... advantage that is very, very hard to overcome in a non-ECM-Light, relying more on luck rather than skill.

What do you pilot, and what's your ping?

You caught me :P my ping sits around 70-90 average is 79.

I run all classes of mech, but majority I run Cents. I love my Wang, and my Muromets is alright. Just bought the Treb's those are great.

My builds generally focus around SRM's and ML's. My Wang runs an AC/20 and my Muromets runs 3xUAC/5s. I do have a 2xERPPC 2xPPC Stalker :D .

Raven's are actually one of the easier ECM mechs to take down due to their low speed IMO.

Working as a unit always leads to dead ECM mechs as I stompy stomp.

#14 Kyone Akashi

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:09 PM

View PostVelba, on 22 February 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

You caught me :P my ping sits around 70-90 average is 79.
*jelly* :D

View PostVelba, on 22 February 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

I run all classes of mech, but majority I run Cents. I love my Wang, and my Muromets is alright. Just bought the Treb's those are great.
I really like the Centurion's looks - I've been toying with the idea to try how one of those fares against ECM: [experimental build idea] (PPCs chainfired rather than simultaneous, of course)

But honestly - do try to run a Jenner and see how far you get. I absolutely love this 'Mech for what I can do against just about everything, but the last few weeks I have grown a deep resentment and fear of 3L's, simply because they can hit me anytime, from any direction, and there's nothing I can do against them except trying to deal as much damage as possible before I go down. Ever since early December, it has been getting worse and worse as more and more pilots jumping onboard the 3L-train.

Occasionally I actually manage to blow one up, but that's an exception and way below my performance against other Lights, which is why I'm accounting it to the other pilot sucking.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 22 February 2013 - 01:12 PM.


#15 Velba

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:19 PM

View PostKyone Akashi, on 22 February 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

*jelly* :P

I really like the Centurion's looks - I've been toying with the idea to try how one of those fares against ECM: [experimental build idea] (PPCs chainfired rather than simultaneous, of course)

But honestly - do try to run a Jenner and see how far you get. I absolutely love this 'Mech for what I can do against just about everything, but the last few weeks I have grown a deep resentment and fear of 3L's, simply because they can hit me anytime, from any direction, and there's nothing I can do against them except trying to deal as much damage as possible before I go down.

Occasionally I actually manage to blow one up, but that's an exception and way below my performance against other Lights, which is why I'm accounting it to the other pilot sucking.

I don't run my founder Jenner in anything other than a Scout/Support role for my LRM/Assaults , or to harass the enemy LRM boats.

In closed beta my K/D was 14.00 with my Jenner only. Then ECM happened, and well. Jenner cannot compete in a 1v1. But because it cannot compete in a 1v1 with 3L does not make it impossible to beat a 3L. You've got to play smart, Use your teammates to help attack the 3L, never try to go 1v1 with it.

Most of the time my Jenny gets wrecked, but I use standard SRM's not SSRM's. Using SSRM's survivability increases, but you do need to use your team to help break their ECM's.

It's not about making all mechs equal, it's about knowing how to use your mechs that you do have to the greatest effect.

#16 Lubalin

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:20 PM

View PostVelba, on 22 February 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Raven's are actually one of the easier ECM mechs to take down due to their low speed IMO.


Agree that they are manageable enough when slow. But the ones with upgraded engines, xl295's, are pretty tough to beat. Even if you're in a jenner running 150kph too. Try hitting a mech that's running 150kph while going 150kph yourself. It's tough! Streaks make this faceoff way easier for 3L's.

#17 Mystere

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:20 PM

View PostSug, on 22 February 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I've been having good luck with my TBT-7M with 2 ppcs and 3 ssrms. 300xl.

Didn't take erppcs because of heat issues. Plus normal ppcs will take out ecm just as good under 90m.

Just use the ppcs to take out their ecm and blow them to hell with the ssrms as they circle you. Pretty easy.


This guy gets it.


View PostVelba, on 22 February 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

I always just shoot the mech with ECM. A lot. Until it falls over; dead.


And this one too.


View PostVelba, on 22 February 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Use your teammates to help attack the 3L ...


And this.

Edited by Mystere, 22 February 2013 - 01:26 PM.


#18 Lubalin

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:26 PM

View PostMystere, on 22 February 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

This guy gets it.

And this one too.


My post was about lights vs lights w/ecm. Standing still to train a ppc is not an option in a light. Maybe in a medium, but not a light. Stand still for a couple seconds to aim that ppc in your jenner, and you're dead.

Also, sure you can focus fire an ecm light. But that says nothing about balance. You can focus fire anything.

#19 Velba

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:32 PM

View PostLubalin, on 22 February 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:


My post was about lights vs lights w/ecm. Standing still to train a ppc is not an option in a light. Maybe in a medium, but not a light. Stand still for a couple seconds to aim that ppc in your jenner, and you're dead.

Also, sure you can focus fire an ecm light. But that says nothing about balance. You can focus fire anything.

You need to learn how to fire that PPC on the move and hit targets. If you cant do that, it's a lack if pilot skill on your end, and not a lack of balance on the games end.

And again, "balance" is not making all mechs equal. "Balance" is giving all mechs "tools" that they can use to beat mechs that use "tools" against them. If your not skilled enough to use the "tools" given to you. It's no fault of the game, but your own.

#20 Lubalin

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:36 PM

View PostVelba, on 22 February 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

You need to learn how to fire that PPC on the move and hit targets. If you cant do that, it's a lack if pilot skill on your end, and not a lack of balance on the games end.

And again, "balance" is not making all mechs equal. "Balance" is giving all mechs "tools" that they can use to beat mechs that use "tools" against them. If your not skilled enough to use the "tools" given to you. It's no fault of the game, but your own.


I have average skill, I'll admit. But, consider the skill required for each side in a duel of raven 3L vs Jenner D. Which takes more skill and which takes less? You can't tell me they require the same amount of skill for success. That's what I mean by balance.

I don't want everything to be the same either.

Edit: clarity.

Edited by Lubalin, 22 February 2013 - 01:37 PM.






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