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Ilithi Dragon

Member Since 24 Nov 2011
Offline Last Active Nov 08 2014 02:55 PM

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In Topic: Countering The Pinpoint Alpha

21 April 2014 - 01:58 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 21 April 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Direct fire weapons will still be used plenty if FLD is maintained, and LRMs are still pretty pathetic. It took over 40 seconds to kill my banshee when I was caught in the open, I went down to 30% from over 90%. A weapon that needs to do that is a bad weapon.

And guess what, if all weapons didn't fire on the exact same spot you might actually need "skill" to snipe. As it is, it's the lowest skill to highest reward in the game at the moment.

The amount of people who don't know what Lurmageddon is, is too damn high.

This. LRMs are potent, but good ECM and AMS coverage and decent usage of terrain makes them all but useless without a LOT of team support (and that is countered easily enough by team coordination on the other side). LRMs will always be the go-to noob weapon, because they don't require aiming, but at higher skill levels they are much less potent - you rarely see LRMs in twelve-man games, and they're mostly a suppressive fire weapon, not a primary damage dealer.

And oh, god, the true LRMageddon... When Atlases ran away from Commandos with LRM-5s... THAT was LRMageddon. The current LRMs are about right. They're potent, and they can ruin your day if the enemy team is really smart with them, or you do something stupid, but they're easy enough to avoid at higher skill levels.

View PostTrauglodyte, on 21 April 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Did you really write that? Are you stoned or stupid?

While I agree with the sentiment, I strongly disagree with the tone. Please try to keep the offensive or insulting comments to a minimum. I want this thread to stay civil and constructive.

Stupid max quotes per post limit...

In Topic: Countering The Pinpoint Alpha

21 April 2014 - 01:54 PM

View PostArchon, on 20 April 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

Pinpoint alpha is fine and essential in order to keep LRMs in check. PPCs are already too hot as it is. IMO the only changes the game needs on the balance end at the moment is a buff to brawling weapons, which we're getting next patch with the additional SRM fixes. I do think the AC20 could stand to be rebuffed to where it was too though.

View PostJettrik Ryflix, on 20 April 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

There are a couple problems I can see with "fixing" convergence:

1. Direct-fire weapons will become very unreliable. LRMS will become the weapon of choice, as the enemy will have trouble taking down your center torso if he can only hit it with one AC5 at a time. So, it'll be another LRMaggedon.

Pinpoint alpha is not necessary to keep LRMs in check. As others noted, LRMs are already very strongly countered by ECM, and weakly countered by AMS. The two in combination, along with half-decent usage of cover, make LRMs a largely impotent weapon without significant team support.

Furthermore, this will not make direct-fire weapons unreliable, it will just make them more challenging to use exceptionally well. This does not affect the inherent accuracy of the weapons, it just increases the skill necessary to make good, concentrated shots at range, while also having the affect of giving certain 'cheese' builds, like the quad-AC Jagermech, a notable drawback at close-range and against smaller targets, helping to nerf those over-powered builds by creating trade-offs that players will have to compensate for.

This will also serve to give each mech an additional, unique 'flavor.' For example, the Banshee-3E, the variant popular as 'high meta,' has 4 ballistic slots in its left torso. By removing convergence for torso weapons, the positioning and orientation of those weapons becomes much more significant. The BNC-3E's ballistics would always fire a little to the left, with a vertical spread. The Jager's ACs will converge slightly at range, but will miss wide to both sides of any smaller mech at close-range.

Direct-fire weapons will not become non-viable, they just won't be overpowered at range anymore, making shorter-range brawler builds more viable, and certain cheese builds will become less cheesey.

View PostGyrok, on 20 April 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

The biggest issue I see here, is the fact that WWII fighter planes could set convergence to hit a specific pinpoint spot *at a certain distance only*

If PGI did that, it would make hitting at range that much more difficult. Knowing your convergence is set to 400m or whatever. I suppose you could even implement a slider allowing pilots to set their range for convergence.

View Postsmokefield, on 20 April 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

actually this is not necessary realistic - the torso weapons can be mounted in a way to converge at a desired point - and maybe this is the best solution - give us the players the option to choose the convergence point of torso mounted weapons when we customize the mech. It will add more immersion and it will be a little more skill involved to make a mech work well.

I actually like this idea, having an option to set a convergence point for fixed weapons. This could be applied to torso weapons and horizontally fixed arm weapons.

View PostGyrok, on 20 April 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

EDIT: The recent JJ nerf was unfounded and nerfed the wrong aspect of JJs, mobility with them should be great, the issue is you should not be able to effectively target while doing so...though that got hexed quickly by the crocodile tear QQ from the forums.

I strongly disagree, because this affects every non-poptart JJ build type far more than it affects poptart builds. Poptarts typically fire at the peak of their jump, adding any kind of screen shake just shortens the window in which we have to fire, while making any kind of JJ-brawler build almost non-viable, because while a poptart can just extend their firing window by just extending their jump time by the necessary amount, JJ-brawlers HAVE to be able to fire while jumping to be truly effective. Creating JJ inaccuracy by a forced random firing cone kills JJ-brawler builds, while only mildly inconveniencing poptarts.

I'm a PPC poptart *****, I've been one for years. It's the playstyle that I love the most (though I play and enjoy almost all the other build types, when I'm not hampered by internet troubles). The random fire cone only mildly inconveniences me. What will make poptarting harder for me will be adding my velocity to my weapon velocity, because now my vertical movement will significantly impact my aim, whether my JJs are active or not. Previous mechwarrior titles did this, and it made making accurate shots at 900 meters while moving and JJing a very difficult proposition. The top-skilled players will eventually be able to compensate, but it will take significant skill, lots of practice and experience, and those shots will always be more difficult, because the variation in how much the player has to lead the target at any given moment, for any given shot will significantly increase.

View PostJettrik Ryflix, on 20 April 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

2. Developing and honing your sniping skills is very satisfying and fun. From what I can tell, the most frequent and competitive players prefer sniping to anything else. Removing pinpoint damage would destroy a lot of the current player base, which is bad for PGI, and ultimately, all MWO fans.

I personally enjoy the game immensely as it currently stands. Countering poptarts is difficult, but it can be a fun challenge. It depends on how you look at it.

I'm a PPC poptart *****, I love the poptart sniper playstyle, it is very enjoyable and satisfying when done well.

It is also WAAAAY too easy to do effectively. That is why all the top players tend to prefer poptart sniper builds, because they are THE ultimate meta - it is a very effective strategy, and it is fairly easy to master as things currently stand. ALL sniper builds are fairly easy to master, because aiming is too easy. It is too easy to make yourself a difficult target to hit while suffering no penalty to your own accuracy. THAT is why mech velocity needs to be added to weapon velocity, and snipers will continue to be inherently overpowered until that change is made.

View Postsmokefield, on 20 April 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

this will affect snipers the most, and they have enough problems as it is now. the maps are not big enough for effective snipers

and even if we take that into consideration - we will have to account for a very small amount compared with the projectile speed...which will be neglijable.

2000m/s = 7200km/h

a decent speed in mwo is 70km/h - which means less than a 100 fraction. it will count but not as much as ppl think - especiialy for distances that are under 2km - meaning the bullet will reach the destination in under 1 sec.

Of course it will affect snipers the most, it is specifically targeted to affect snipers the most, because all sniper builds are inherently overpowered in the current meta, and that has been the constant state of the game since HSR was introduced and pilots could reliably hit targets at range.

The amount that snipers will have to lead the target for their own movement will be small, but still significant at range.

For example, lets do the math.

The ERPPC, the archetypical MW 'sniper' weapon, has an optimal range of 810 meters, and a travel speed of 1500 m/s.

Say we have a sniper moving at 70kph to the right of her target, exactly perpendicular. That 70kph translates into 19.44 m/s movement to the right. Our sniper lines up on her target and fires just inside her optimal range, at 800 meters. At 1500 m/s, it takes her ERPPC shot 0.53 second to reach her target. In that 0.53 second, the ERPPC bolt moves 800 meters towards the target, and 10.3 meters to the right of the target. That's about the full width of an Atlas, give or take. That is a LOT of lead our sniper has to give her target, just to compensate for her own horizontal movement. Now if her target, say it's an Atlas, happens to be moving at 50kph to our sniper's LEFT, our sniper has to lead her target to the left by another 7.36 meters. And if she's in the middle of a jump up or down, that's another few meters that she has to lead her target UP or DOWN.

Now, a skilled poptart CAN still make that shot. I was a Black Knight ERPPC poptart ***** back in MW4: Mercs, and I could reliably hit a target at 950 meters while JJing, and moving perpendicular to my target at 90kph, with my target going 40-50kph in the opposite direction. Mercs had its own balance problems, but the point is that I could reliably make those shots, but it took countless hours of practice before I could do it, and it wasn't an easy shot - hitting at that range was hard, and while I could do it reliably, my hit rate against the biggest mechs, the Diashi and Atlas, was nowhere near 100%. And I was the star sniper in the unit I was in at the time.

With the weapon, hardpoint, and heat mechanics of MWO, snipers will still be able to hit big mechs reliably at that range, but only the exceptional ones will be able to do it reliably while moving, let alone while moving and JJing, and it won't be an easy shot.

Furthermore, Lights and Mediums will become the bane of poptarts and snipers, as they should be, because they will be too small, fast, and agile to hit with any reliability at range, and it takes an exceptionally skilled poptart or sniper to deal with a Light or fast Medium at close range (and the Light or Medium doesn't have to kill or even significantly damage the poptart to remove it from the fight, just harassing the sniper, forcing her to move or turn and fire slow-charging, high-heat/low-ammo weapons at a fast, hard-to-hit target is enough to render them combat ineffective). And I'm not saying all of this as a wild guess, I'm saying this from personal experience, both in MWO and previous MW titles.

View PostKhobai, on 20 April 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

Also I agree PPCs are too hot. Which is why PPCs should do arcing damage and their heat should be lowered. Ghost heat should also be removed.

I want Ghost Heat removed, but I don't think PPCs are too hot. I think they are fine just as they are - they're cool enough that they work well as sniper weapons, but too hot to fire as often as you need to fire in a brawl, making them a niche weapon, as they should be.

View PostKhobai, on 20 April 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

Quite frankly it would be STUPID to play a game where your guns dont shoot where your reticle is pointed. Convergence is a necessary evil. Whats not necessary is weapons instantly delivering all of their damage to the same location at once. Hence AC burst fire and PPC arcing damage.

It's hardly stupid, the crosshairs are where your converged weapons will hit, and approximately where your non-converged weapons will hit. It is then up to the pilot to learn the feel of each mech and be conscious of where each weapon will land. This will add a learning curve for new players, yes, but it is not really much different than learning to play with arm lock off.

Removing convergence for torso and non-swivel arm weapons (or by giving them a pre-set convergence range adjusted in the Mechlab), and adding mech velocity to weapon velocity will drastically reduce the amount of damage that can be concentrated in a single location without a mix of luck and exceptional player skill. Burst-fire ACs could be fun to play with as variations of base weapon types, but I don't think they are the ideal method to resolve the underlying problem (nor do they resolve the underlying problem), and I do not like the idea of PPCs arcing damage.

View PostMercier, on 20 April 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:

for what little it's worth at this point, in TT BTech, walk was +1, run +2, jump +3 for the firing mech - pretty considerable penalties on a 2d6 ( 7 or higher vs 10 or higher, for example)

- yet, and it's been thus in Mw games and most shooter games - when you walk or run, you don't 'bounce'.

Go outside, and get running - try firing your hunting rifle on the run.

Mounted archers used to time their shots - it takes considerable skill -

but in most FPS based games, movement is as smooth as gliding over glass in the best suspensded luxury car ya can buy...

Heat... I'm not seeing it affect accuracy...

That aside, the mechs Do have turrets - the whole torso - and it has sub turrets - arms.

I could go for a little added 'bounce' and 'sway' to the reticle from a mech's movement, though logistically, I know this is a difficult thing to code effecitvely, for the same reason why PGI made the JJ inaccuracy a random number generator instead of basing it on where the reticule was bouncing around at - because the more you move the reticule, the more you tax HSR.

I think, from experience in previous MW titles, that simply adding mech velocity to weapon velocity will go most of the way to making firing while moving or JJing appropriately difficult. Couple that with non-convergence or limited-convergence or torso and non-swivel arm weapons, and the problem will be solved (because getting all of your weapons to land in the same spot if they don't have instant full convergence will be challenging enough standing still against a stationary target, let alone if all mechs are moving in three dimensions).

In Topic: Countering The Pinpoint Alpha

20 April 2014 - 07:41 PM

View PostDuncan Aravain, on 20 April 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

No mention of graduated JJ heat. That a 80-95 ton mech can levitate with so little heat added over and over again just begs for abuse by all the high alpha jumpers in the game. Without adding some form of graduated JJ heat penalty to your plan, you have only a partial solution (but at least a reasonable solution to an ongoing issue). The experts will still be able to do their uncanny pinpoint damage, but at a slower pace. Sadly, PGI has seemed to often offer Band-Aid fixes when aspects of the game are exploited, rather than tear down and rebuild from the ground up certain parts of the game.

I'm not fond of the idea of adding too much heat from JJs. I could get behind the idea of scaling JJ heat with size/number of JJs, but with the very strong caveat that we must be very careful not to overdo it, especially considering PGI's fondness for balancing by swinging between extremes... >.>

Besides, I'm not sure that adding another heat-generator is the best way to go. Personally, I think scaling fall damage for bigger mechs would be a better way to go. Not too severely - you don't want to punish the Stalker too much for accidentally falling off the ridge, but enough that assault poptarts have to be much more mindful of the terrain their jumping in, how high their jumping, and how hard their landing. That's already there, sort of, but only in a very periphery way; I watch to avoid leg damage when poptarting, but it's not a huge concern. A modest scaling of fall damage should be sufficient to make that a notable concern.

View PostTrauglodyte, on 20 April 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

You'd be wrong about that, unfortunately. Sadly, this is something that a great many people don't know: Pin Point (tier 2 efficiency) is an XP sink because it doesn't work. Back in Closed Beta, PGI got stuck with a decision. Do they fix hit registry so that you don't have to lead your target with freaking lasers (thanks CryEngine3) or do they keep the intricate and decently design platform of convergence? PGI chose the former and that is a great thing because you need to be able to hit what you point your weapons at. The side effect of that, though, is that the community picked up on the power of instant damage around the time that the PPC got buffed (went from 10 heat and 900m/s to 8 heat and 2000m/s). A little after that, people combined the power of the PPC with the Gauss Rifle and now we're here saying how bad convergence is.

Now that you mention it, I do remember hearing something about the convergence thing, but that was a long time ago.

I will note, though, that the PPCs were buffed before HSR, because with the latency issues at the time, they were not an effective weapon. The buff made them slightly OP, but, due to the latency issues making hitting with them unreliable, they were only slightly OP. Then HSR came in, and suddenly you could reliably hit with PPCs at long range, but it took PGI a full six months to figure out that PPCs themselves were now OP and the buff that had been put in to counter Closed Beta/early Open Beta latency issues should have been removed with the removal of said latency issues.

In that time, the whole issue got muddied up by people crying about the symptoms, missing the underlying problem, and this resulted in PGI running with community-popular mechanics like JJ shake and Ghost Heat, which were scattershot attacks on symptoms rather than the underlying problem, or the weird Gauss-charge mechanic, which again was an attempt to treat the symptom of PPC/Gauss synergy, which was caused by the underlying problem of mech velocity not being added to weapon velocity, which is causing an artificial synergy with ALL weapons.

View PostTrauglodyte, on 20 April 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

Projectile velocity needs to inherit the firing platform's speed. The convergence point also needs to be impacted by your heat level (ie, the higher your heat, the further or closer [could be random] your reticle point becomes thus spreading your weapon damage without an arbitrary cone of fire [terrible idea]). And finally, we need some semblance of heat penalties and visual hindrance to simulate the effect heat has on the "brain"of the mech - you! We can get around the convergence problem but it isn't going to be easy and won't be pretty. But, until it is slowed, mechs are still going to get slagged way too quickly.

I'm not sure that scaling weapon convergence with heat level is the best way to go about things. I think just re-adding weapon convergence speed to begin with, if it's even something they could viably do in CryEngine (this whole thread assumes that messing with weapon convergence is something they'll be able to do now), would solve most of the problem. Speaking as a veteran PPC poptart *****, adding even just a fraction of a second to the time it takes me to line up an accurate shot can make a huge difference.

View Posthercules1981, on 20 April 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

U r correct with everything u said for the most part but we all know pgi is not gonna spend the time and money in doing this. It's been topic for a long time they ain't gonna do the change. I'm just saying if a weapon is hotter u can't fire as much.FACT. If u can't fire as much u can't put out as much damage.FACT. Now just because u can't do as much damage doesn't mean u can't kill easily in the jump snipe world. There will still be plenty of guys focusing targets down but having a team closing the distance while say 8 30 point alphas come at my team is far better then seeing 12 11 or even 9 30 point alphas come at my team. Give close range mechs a better change of closing the distance to make ppcs usless u have a far more balanced game then we have now. And it only takes one simple change of a heat value to do this

I understand what you're saying, but the reason I don't like it is the same reason why I hate Ghost Heat and JJ shake: It is a broad-spectrum, scattershot approach to a very specific problem, and it is a palliative treatment, trying to mediate the symptom instead of addressing the underlying problem. Changing heat for weapons affects much more than just the one build type, it affects all builds that use that weapon, whether they're PPC poptart snipers or not, and it does nothing to fix the actual problem.

View PostKhobai, on 20 April 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

This. PGI isnt gonna do it. Period.

The best we can hope for is a bandaid which makes ACs fire in bursts and PPCs do arcing damage. That way they spread out their damage across multiple locations. Combine that with an internal structure increase and the game should be sufficiently bandaided.

I am not satisfied with this, partly because I'm not going to let PGI off the hook for developing the latest title in one of my most favorite game franchises, and partly because, per intel provided by the amazing Karl Berg in the awesome and awesomely informative Paging Karl thread, many of the problems we saw in the past were due to a combination of PGI's poor choice of engine, and PGI just screwing the pooch due to lack of experience in developing this type of game. It sounds like PGI is finally getting their act together (and Karl doesn't pull punches in admitting they had problems), and now that they've gotten the UI 2.0 hurtle out of the way, they're finally able to really start making progress in other areas. This still leaves them with a HUGE backlog, and the changes that I'm suggesting are probably going to be fairly low on the priority list if they get approved, but the sooner we start putting it out there, the sooner they can get it approved and added to their List of Things To Do.

In Topic: Countering The Pinpoint Alpha

20 April 2014 - 06:47 PM

View Posthercules1981, on 20 April 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Heat doesn't impair your ability to hit but it sure as hell will make u hit less often. Land 30 times with a 30 point alpha a match that's 900 damage. Now estimate about 24 shots landing because of a 20% heat increase to ppcs now your only looking at 720 damage still plenty but I'd rather see an opponent doing 700 ish instead of 900 ish damage.

The problem isn't that people are doing too much damage. I very rarely see anyone doing 900 damage in a match. Typically, provided they didn't completely fail at life or get destroyed early or something, most people tend to do 200-600 damage per match. The heavy damage dealers tend to be in the 500-700 range, and on rare occasions I'll see someone hit 800-1000+.

Poptarts and snipers are not dealing more damage than anyone else, they're dealing their damage MORE PRECISELY than anyone else, and while that is inherently part of the role, the concentration of damage snipers, and other long-range builds are capable of is too great.

Breaking convergence, and adding mech velocity to weapon velocity, will fix that by addressing the underlying problem of precision damage convergence.

In Topic: Countering The Pinpoint Alpha

20 April 2014 - 06:28 PM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 20 April 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Do we need mech speed transferred to weapons? Sure. But, the problem will still remain the fact that you can go from pointing your weapons at the sky, which has an infinite distance, and then put your cross hair on something 1m in front of you and all of your weapon fire will land miraculously RIGHT there in an instant. Movement doesn't impair your ability to hit. Heat doesn't impair your ability to hit. Everything is full on the player skill and that is a problem.

Actually, there is a convergence speed, so far as I am aware. The Elite skill unlock that increases convergence speed makes it almost unnoticeable, however.

Perhaps they need to reduce convergence speed?

View PostMister Blastman, on 20 April 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

OP: WELL SAID!!!!!!!!
I've made these exact suggestions to the community several times in the past couple of years starting with July of 2012 in closed beta with the convergence ideas you have presented. I'm glad someone else gets it!

... if only the developers would.

I've been saying most of it myself for well over a year.