198 replies to this topic

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

SRMs got hit hard with the nerf bat in closed beta they're working as intended.

/thread

[Inyc]

Voidsinger, on 01 March 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

You decided on a criteria specifically to exclude LRMs, brawlers. That alone has made your points rather useless, and makes it appear you are an LRM user.

Next, you have failed to note weight per launcher, number of shots per ton, or heat per ton.

I chose brawlers because light mechs can outrun and strafe around the multi-SRM6 chassis. Because LRM users or snipers can simply pick off the SRM6 chassis at range.

But brawlers have neither of these options available to them. And my mech of choice is a CN9-AL with 2 SRM6s.

And I clearly stated that SRM6s were balanced per ton and per slots. Did you even read my post?

[Suki]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Negative. Slot and weight size come into play against the LRM-20. No chassis can have more than 4 equipped period. And even the ones that can do that can't do it efficiently. There are also available counters for none LRM range.

There is no counter to the power of SRM6 for non SRM6 brawlers.



But can you, in table top, stick your SRM mech right next to the back armor of a mech and ensure that every single of those 36 SRMs will hit the very same component? Or even half?

There IS the same counter non for LRMs but SRMs too, exactly the same counter you mentioned - RANGE.

Edited by Suki, 01 March 2013 - 12:38 AM.

[Brilig]

Kobold, on 28 February 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

I vote the exact opposite. Give them less damage, but also a tighter grouping at range. This gives a lower alpha weapon, but it will retain usefulness.

Tightening the groups and decreasing the damage wouldn't help much. In fact we used to have SRMs just like that way back at founders beta access. They were too OP then because the majority of the SRMs in a volley would all hit the same section, instead of spreading damage around. So they increased spread and damage a bit to try and put them in a better spot. That is where we are at right now.

The SRM6 seems to be about right for ranges beyond 100 meters till its 270 meter limit. Spread and damage at those ranges seem fine. At 100 meters or less the grouping is still tight, and most of the missiles are impacting on the same section. The problem is much worse when you are firing multiple SRM6s from the same tubes. With 3 SRM6s your getting 45 damage done to 2 maybe 3 sections of a mech at 100 meters. The closer you are the more likely the majority of that damage is being done to 1 section of a mech.

[Inyc]

Voidsinger, on 01 March 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

This is proveded you can operate them in the ECM environment

You must not have played much recently.

[Inyc]

Suki, on 01 March 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

There IS the same counter non for LRMs but SRMs too, exactly the same counter you mentioned - RANGE.

No I meant mechs that play at range but don't use LRMs, like PPC or Gauss snipers can use ECM, AMS, terrain and the flight time of LRMs to counter play.

non-SRM Brawlers don't get ECM, limited use of AMS, some terrain and no flight time to counter play a brawler with SRM

[Broad5ide]

Kobold, on 01 March 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

Ohari, it isn't just the A1. Any mech that you intend to brawl with, should first fill all missile slots with SRMs. Only after that do you check your remaining tonnage and see what else you can carry.

Prior to the introduction of the Trebuchet, nearly every medium in the Run Hot or Die league was a CN9-A with 3x6.

This is just because the build is popular. Not necessarily because srms are too good. Look at MOBAs as an example, their top tier play meta-games change constantly even without buffs and nerfs as people adopt and react to common strategies.

[Inyc]

Here is a simple challenge: Counter my assertion that SRM6s are by far (AT LEAST 50% better than any other weapon you can stack) the best weapon to stack for brawlers.

[KharnZor]

ahh so we've moved on to srms now have we?

[xRatas]

Aim64C, on 01 March 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

I would just like to point out that in tabletop, SRMs do 2 points of damage per missile. Yet armor is only worth 16 points per ton (half of MWO).

By that, and that alone, all missiles are technically nerfed in comparison to tabletop varieties.

I take it you do not play the TT?

Two things to google:
-"Number of missiles hit" -table
-"Hit locations" -table

SRM are a god weapon when compared to TT.

edit to help the newbie out: TT does not calculate range in any way when comparing how many missiles will hit, or where they hit. So to match TT, all missiles should really come out from launcher in huge spread already.

Edited by xRatas, 01 March 2013 - 12:57 AM.

[Inyc]

KharnZor, on 01 March 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

ahh so we've moved on to srms now have we?

I forgot to type 1 6... calm down.

[MustrumRidcully]

Brilig, on 01 March 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

Tightening the groups and decreasing the damage wouldn't help much. In fact we used to have SRMs just like that way back at founders beta access. They were too OP then because the majority of the SRMs in a volley would all hit the same section, instead of spreading damage around. So they increased spread and damage a bit to try and put them in a better spot. That is where we are at right now.

The SRM6 seems to be about right for ranges beyond 100 meters till its 270 meter limit. Spread and damage at those ranges seem fine. At 100 meters or less the grouping is still tight, and most of the missiles are impacting on the same section. The problem is much worse when you are firing multiple SRM6s from the same tubes. With 3 SRM6s your getting 45 damage done to 2 maybe 3 sections of a mech at 100 meters. The closer you are the more likely the majority of that damage is being done to 1 section of a mech.

Unless SRMs will spread out 3m from each other th emoment they leave the tubes, the simplest way to rebalance SRMs seems to be tightening the spread at all ranges and lower the damage*. This way, SRMs lose effectiveness at close range, but gain them at longer ranges, simply because all those missiles actually have a chance to hit the same mech.

*) And I don't think it will need all that much. Just lowering the damage to 2 per missile might be sufficient. If that isn't enough, maybe a slight cooldown increase for SRM4s and SRM6s.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 01 March 2013 - 12:53 AM.

[KharnZor]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

I forgot to type 1 6... calm down.

I know right? You sure can feel the rage just oozing from that post cant you?

[Seleucus Ontuas]

You can make a AC/20 K2 build that goes 70, though the Jagermech will have an easier time of it. With that said, I'm expecting an XL in a Jagermech to be an even worse idea than an XL in a Phract.

[xRatas]

Seleucus Ontuas, on 01 March 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

You can make a AC/20 K2 build that goes 70, though the Jagermech will have an easier time of it. With that said, I'm expecting an XL in a Jagermech to be an even worse idea than an XL in a Phract.

Then again, you can not build 2 AC20 Cataphract. Even with AC20 Cat it is ideal not to take hits before you suprise someone. Speed helps doing that.

Edited by xRatas, 01 March 2013 - 01:02 AM.

[Phellian]

You want to balance SRM fire?

That's a simple fix to AMS. AMS systems should engage EVERY missile flight attacking a mech, irregardless of the range the missiles were fired at. One of the most important things about AMS in table top was that it engaged normal Short Range and Streak missiles.

[Aim64C]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

In the minimum amount of time it took you to deal 200 damage with 2 medium lasers, you could have dealt 450 with 2 SRM6s.

No, I couldn't.

That would require at least 2 tons of ammo and 8 tons of weapon (not to mention 6 criticals - eight overall).

Doesn't work with my C4 setup. Medium lasers are what I had.

That's ten tons, eight criticals (eight tons, six criticals sans artemis) to match the relative output of about 4 tons of laser that has a range nearly twice that of SRMs (and both are going to see heat buildup with prolonged use).

[Inyc]

Aim64C, on 01 March 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

No, I couldn't. That would require at least 2 tons of ammo and 8 tons of weapon (not to mention 6 criticals - eight overall). Doesn't work with my C4 setup. Medium lasers are what I had. That's ten tons, eight criticals (eight tons, six criticals sans artemis) to match the relative output of about 4 tons of laser that has a range nearly twice that of SRMs (and both are going to see heat buildup with prolonged use).

You are talking about tonnage and slot usage, and yes I stated that SRM6s are at a fine balance point for tonnage and slot usage. I never disagreed with this. I stated that they are too strong per hard point when you consider hard point availability roster wide. Any brawler mech chassis with SRM6s > any brawler mech chassis without.

[Filip Orionsky]

I see that many people giving "good" advices and consider splatcat pilots as total ******* who don't use any tactics. Considering the map design half smart splatcat pilot will use cover (which is nearly evrywhere) and stick with his buddies to close in, oh dont forget that he is pretty much faster or just as fast as any other mech excepting lights. So a splatcast pops out lets say even those 270 meters or closer (it has jumpets lol) from you, you can fire once before he hugs you, you can try to pop his ear or headshot him, those are your only options.

To keep distance from splatcat you need:
a) know that there is one in the enemy team
b ) know where it is
c) spot him at early while he is out of cover
d) be fast enough and agile enough to run and miantian distance
e) have no otehr enemies to worry about the at given time

I killed many splact cats and i can deal with them, but still they can outbrwal an atlas with easy, they are one of the most fearsome oponents there are. I dont think a firesupport mehcs being the king of brawlers is fine.

Edited by Filip Orionsky, 01 March 2013 - 01:19 AM.

[KharnZor]

Filip Orionsky, on 01 March 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

oh dont forget that he is pretty much faster or just as fast as any other mech excepting lights.

I'm sorry but you are deluded