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Ecms Have Defined The Game


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#1 Azrienov

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:19 PM

TL:DR is at the bottom.

An ECM system is a "must have" system in this game at this time. Probably at any time now. The fact is, weapon systems like LRMs are dangerous and highly rewarding for no risk before the introduction of the ECM.

Now, the ECM has come to define games. The odds are stacked against a team that doesn't carry one or preferably more. I've played against ravens that run together with a pair of ECMs guarding XL engine Catapults stacking the usual "splat cat" SRM build. Using their JJs efficiently, the 2 cats destroyed 7 mechs that were unable to defend themselves properly in the confines of the city as they were outmanuevered and outplayed. The best defensive counter measure was range. LRMs simply were out of the question in this situation, because of the ECM inclusion. The end result was a game that was sorely stacked against them turned into a route against 300+ tons of enemy mechs. This team exploited a terribly imbalanced setup in the splat cats, sure, but the real killer was their complete immunity to being targeted or allowing their enemies to coordinate after they entered the null zone.

The ECM should be an effective counter measure to LRMs. This is important. It should not be an effective immunity to them. Long range support has serious importance in a game that is ambitious about larger maps and more mechs on map. Neither should the ECM completely isolate allied mechs from their allies. The solution for this, in my mind at least, is a huge change to ECMs, scout mech variants, and target sharing.

ECMs should cloak a mech to a range of 200 to 300 m. The ECM umbrella should only interfere up to that range. Once inside the umbrella, sensor systems overpower the ECM, allowing for normal lock on and target acquisition of all mechs within. Target data should not be transfered outside of the Umbrella(with one exception). Allied mechs should never be fall off the radar because they're inside an enemy ECM.

TAGs should cause a mech to pop up on the screen of the tagger, as long as the painter is on that mech. This in turn, should be transmitted to other allies with a sensor system of some sort that is added to the mech. WIthout this item, a mech should be the only benefactor of a tag paint. A sensor suite should allow sharing of TAG data as well as ECM mechs targeted by the carrying mech. This item should be something that takes up a hard point OR a module slot, much like the command throne on the D-DC. If that mech is under the influence of the ECM, the TAG should allow the attacker to acquire a normal missile lock. Outside of the ECM, tags should speed up both missile lock time and accuracy.

NARCs should be the end all be all missile support. If you're narc'd, that beacon should be a target in and of itself for LRMs. Once hit by missiles, it's destroyed at the damage thresh hold. Because the target is the beacon, and not the mech its stuck on, ECM coverage should do nothing about it until the beacon is destroyed. At that point, the mech returns to standard ECM coverage.

Scout modules or equipment should allow for better target sharing by these machines. They should only be on light and certain qualifying mediums

Remove the ECM off the Atlas if you intend to do NOTHING else. I own the D-DC variant, and yes I run an ECM on him. I also own the D variant, and I've played both. I now understand what a HUGE boon the ECM is to an assault mech. This should be a scout variant piece of equipment that helps players play support roles in their team.

TLDR

1. ECMs counter LRMs. And everything and everyone else. A must have item is always bad for balance.

2. ECMs should not create a "Low Signal" field. They should reduce detection range to 200 m, and that should be that. Allies should still see friendly targets on their maps while within the 180 m range.

3. Counter mode on the ECM was a bad idea. Implement a new item for target sharing that allows for sharing of tagged mechs(instead of being automatic) and target acquisition to overcome ECM capabilities. Missile locks on ECMs should take a long time, and suffer from poor accuracy as target computers spread the missiles maximize potential damage, UNLESS TAGGED OR NARC'd. ECM and data sharing items, BAP, and other sensor support equipment should have a hardpoint or module slot in the mech.

4. Narcs, being an ammo based item that must be landed to be useful, should always ensure that a target appears on the map, and that all missiles attempt to travel to the location of the beacon on the target mech. ECMs should be completely overpowered by this item.

5. ECMs belong to scouts. A D-DC Atlas(A mech I truly and dearly love driving.) will not now, nor ever be in this class. Design variants around scouting support that will effectively assist their team and allow for maximum utilization of potential from each mech in the game.

Edited by Azrienov, 06 March 2013 - 10:50 AM.


#2 Joker Two

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:54 AM

View PostAzrienov, on 05 March 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

ECMs SHOULD protect you from LRMs. They should give you target immunity as you advance.

3. ...Missile locks on ECMs should take a long time, and suffer from poor accuracy as target computers spread the missiles maximize potential damage, UNLESS TAGGED OR NARC'd...


Missile locks are not possible against ECM'ed targets, except when they are TAG'ed or targeted by a friendly in that 20m window. I am not sure whether you are arguing for or against the total loss of sensor data against ECM'ed targets.

Quote

1. ECMs counter LRMs. And everything and everyone else. A must have item is always bad for balance.


Agreed, with the caveat that direct fire weapons at ranges exceeding radar detection are unaffected. Within radar detection range the lack of target damage schematics still hampers direct fire weapons, and the strategic-level disruption affects the use of every other weapon.

Quote

Implement a new item for target sharing that allows for sharing of tagged mechs(instead of being automatic) and target acquisition to overcome ECM capabilities.


This requires TAG to be paired with another piece of equipment to fulfill the same function that it fills currently. This is redundant, and impossible to perform without changing the 'Mech construction rules, as stock variants that feature TAG would now need to incorporate this new piece of equipment. The construction rules (particularly the weights and critical slots of equipment) cannot be changed without invalidating thousands of people's favorite variants and dozens of years of established loadouts.

Many of your other points are very good, and I agree in principle that ECMs are (and have been) the defining feature of the meta-game since their release, in a way that is very unhealthy for the game. Some of your arguments are weak, however, and in the case of LRMs appear contradictory. It would help to clarify these. Also, keep in mind that changing construction rules (paragraph above) is extremely difficult to do without alienating a vast number of fans, and therefore extremely unlikely for PGI to ever do.

ECM does need to change. Let's try to make the best arguments and solutions we can.

#3 DocBach

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:56 AM

I'd like to see ECM be broken down into one more mode like it has in Tactical Operations:

Disrupt:
Blocks Beagle, Artemis, Narc, Target sharing through the bubble
ECM 'Mechs can be targeted, but not identified
If the spotting 'Mech is inside the ECM bubble, there is a chance that lock can be disrupted

Ghost Targets:
Randomly generates targets on enemies radar to confuse them
Creates longer lock on time against targets inside an ECM bubble
Beagle can detect the false targets as being Ghosts

Counter:
Counters both Disrupt and Ghost Targets mode

Now ECM works as either a deterrent to LRM's in Ghost Target mode by the enemy having to distinguish the real target they want to fire on out of several false targets, and makes it longer to lock on, or ECM works to hide movement from Beagle Active Probe and defeats Artemis' new super home into the CT powers -- but it doesn't get to do it all in one neat package, you have to sacrifice one effect for the other. By Beagle detecting ghosts, we balance ECM not with a 7 ton skill-based system like the PPC, but with a same sized and weighted, passive piece of equipment that is in turn countered with ECM's other mode.

Edited by DocBach, 06 March 2013 - 07:58 AM.


#4 arghmace

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:18 AM

Not only have ECMs defined the game, they've also defined game design. Everything else like mech variant quirks are now done by keeping ECM in mind. Mind boggling, really.

http://mwomercs.com/...21#entry2007821

#5 Lykaon

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:23 AM

What I feel was the larges contributing factor to the over featured ECM was under developed support electroncis prior to ECM's inclusion.

Why does the ECM need all the padded features it has? Probably because it's in canon features would have been under utilized because nobody was using BAP or NARC because they were junk.

Currently we a Guardian ECM that is functioning more like Angel ECM+Stealth armor (go look those up on sarna.net if you are unfamilular) Seeing how both the Angel and stealth armor are not available to our current timeline why do we have super ECM that out performs future tech?

The answer is simple.

The support electronics Guardian ECM is suppose to counter was so under developed that just having ECM counter those items (as it is suppose to) would make ECM under featured.


My solution to ECM.

First we need to improve other support electronics.

TAG as it is now is probably on par with how it should function.So leave TAG as is.However change some mechanics to allow for interaction of role warfare to become prominent features again.ECM should prevent indirect LRM spotting while the spotter is within hostile ECM effects.TAG however can penetrate the ECM effect and allow for indirect fire upon a TAG painted target.

NARC is still crap and needs adjustment.
I would alter NARC in the following ways.
Double ammo count per ton.

NARC effected targets transmit thier location to any and all enemies within a certain range.This range will likely need testing but let's say 500m for starters.This location transmittion will not be effected by line of sight.The NARC will not transmit any data other than the effected target's current location and the mech type and condition it was in the last time it was ligitamatley scaned with active sensors (the NARC beacon does not have a sensor suite so can not substitute for mech sensors)

NARC beacons become disabled if the location they are attached to is damaged up to a specified threshold for now let's say 10 points of damage to the location destroys the NARC.

Beagle Active Probe:The BAP should detect any and all targets within it's sensor radious regardless of line of sight issues.The BAP will in effect be a 360 degree sensor suite with limited range.Only targets that are within true LOS can be targeted by the BAP equiped mech though allowing the 360 target retention module to synergize with BAP rather than be replaced by BAP.
As is now BAP will detect shut down mechs and enhance maximum sensor ranges.

Artemis guidance is still being tweeked so it is difficult to determine how it will eventually function in a specific sense.However as long as Artemis does function as an improved missile guidance system ECM should simply hard counter Artemis.

Now that we have some fleshed out support electronics that actually provide important effects on the battlefeild ECM can be altered to be less bloated with features.

For starters,Remove the 180m sensor cloak effects.ECM should not prevent passive detection of targets and should never provide that to everything that happens to be within 180m of an ECM.
This feature for me was the sillyest of the ECM effects.ECM is not a stealth function by any means.ECM in use is very easy to locate since it is broadcasting.If anything the 180m ECM "bubble" should appear on sensors as an easy to detect broadcasted effect.I huge red circle on the minimap and tactical display.
But I digress.Simply remove this stealth feature from ECM entirely.

Next Remove the passive IFF jamming effect.What I mean by this is ECM's ability to prevent friendlies from appearing on your sensors as friendlies or transmitting friendly locations onto your maps.
Replace this passive effect for an active targeted effect.Only the mech that is currently being targeted by an ECM equiped mech has it's incomming IFF data scrambled.

Next,since the sensor cloaking feature was removed LRMs and Streaks can now lock on normally so maybe ECM should interact with sensor based ordnance lock ons.
I would have mechs equiped with ECM have a delay to lock onto them as well as a significant delay to get specific critical data from them.
Double lock on times and quadruple the time to aquire specific critical data from ECM equiped mechs.

Artemis LRMs originating from outside hostile ECM effects will retain their lock on acceleration and therefore reduce the ECM jamming to normal lock on speeds.If however the Artemis is covered by hostile ECM the Artemis will not function and the LRMs will suffer from the reduced lock on speeds.

BAP scanning from outside of hostile ECM will aquire critical data twice as fast as normal sensors when detecting an ECM equiped mech.Essentially it will break down as follows.

Normal sensors vs no ECM = 1.5 seconds to aquire critical data
Normal sensors vs ECM = 6 seconds to aquire critical data
BAP sensors vs no ECM= .75 seconds to aquire critical data
BAP sensors vs ECM = 3 seconds to aquire critical data

In all circumstances sensor augmenting modules will function.


To simulate ECMs interaction with C3 systems (that we do not have in MWo but do have represented in core features)
Mechs under the effects of hostile ECM do not transmit target data to other friendlies.
This means that while the mech that is specificly under hostile ECM effects can lock onto and target hostiles under ECM normaly none of the targeting data is transmitted to friendlies.

TAG becomes the only means of spotting for LRM indirect fire if the target is effected by friendly ECM.This will return deminished aspects of role warfare by creating a need for TAG equiped spotters.

Change ECM to be an option on any mech chassis.

In addition linked features that have interaction with E-war and ECM effects need to be ballanced.This includes but not limited to.

LRMs damage,characteristics and overall performance.
Streak SRMs overall performance and effectivness
AMS effects in relation to missile systems that will be altered.
Artemis guidance that will be effected by changes to LRMs.

Edited by Lykaon, 06 March 2013 - 11:24 AM.


#6 Gremlich Johns

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:20 PM

ECM should not be able to cloak a mech until the proper time in the canon time - here is a clue, it is not 3050 when that happens.

Actual ECM puts out sufficient EM that it can be easily located and killed with an arty strike.

Current ECM implementation benefits from NO knockdown.

Actual ECM jams EVERYBODY - nobody talks and nobody targets unless it is OFF. Even the mech carrying it.

The current game ECM should not be called ECM because it does not resemble the concept in any fashion. Call it something else and I won't whinge about it, just do not call it ECM. Call it "The no-see-um, no-kill-me" system.

I want smoke grenades in-game because that's the only way (besides dazzler systems) you can prevent targeting lasers from working optimally at ANY range. ECM should have no effect on optics or optically-based systems.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 06 March 2013 - 02:40 PM.


#7 Infinite1

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:30 PM

Definitely, at first, I stopped using all of my missle mechs because the ECM kills all targeting and I got into Ballistics and lasers, which are awesome!!!! Now I joined the team and bought a mech with one. Definitely a game turner in alot of cases.

#8 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:00 PM

What I'd like to see is more than one electronic warfare module.

#9 arghmace

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:03 PM

Oh boy.

Finally bought my first ECM mech - the 3L.

It is about 2 times more powerful than any mech I've played so far.

This game's balance is a joke.

#10 Diomedesbc

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:23 PM

ECM is messed up right now. I might have to take a break and come back in a couple months to see what's happened again. Hopefully they'll work things out.
Mechs shouldn't be invisible up close with ECM.

#11 VsTxChurch

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:38 AM

my problem is this, an ECM hides a 20+ ton chunk of metal from my sensors? ok... but how does it hide the magnetic signature from the NUCLEAR REACTORS SHIELDING SYSTEM!!!!! give us mag-res scan vision to see mechs visually better screw that I/R crap. anybody who has read the books (novels and tech manuals for TT) has read somewhere about magnetic resolution sensors on mechs





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