194 replies to this topic

[Malora Sidewinder]

Serious question.
I don't feel like ECM is too good, it feels fine.

I mean, yes it negates targeting data for allies within a small radius, but even having the element of surprise, a better pilot will win in a brawl most of the time. I really feel like this "cloak" advantage is negligible at best.
isn't this supposed to be a team based game?

Personally the reason i use ECM is not as a pseudo-stealth, but because it does such a good job at nerfing LRMS.

I don't have a problem being paired against opponents with ECM, albeit i'm far and away better than the average player, but even so I fail to see how ECM is breaking ANYTHING.
It's main function is to provide an advantage against the lowest skill-intensive weapons in the game: LRMs and SSRMs.
I'm going to say that once and for all

LRMS AND SSRMs REQUIRE ABSOLUTELY NO SKILL TO USE.
now that THAT's out of the way...

I'd actually bet that the average person who complains about ECM is not actually losing to ECM, but is rather just a terrible pilot who wants an excuse as to why he's getting killed.

Lets be real here, guys. If you rely on LRMS to get kills, you deserve to be paired up against ECM. it makes using lrms more difficult, and therefore takes (albeit still a tremendously tiny amount) more pilot ability to use.

i just don't get it.
exactly how is ECM broken?

[Soger Hayha]

It's not broken at all, I wish people would stop making ECM threads...

[One Medic Army]

Two issues with ECM here.
One, it removes the positions of allies. This means it's easy in some locations (especially on river city) to get separated from your team and be unable to find allies.
Two, ECM+SSRM is the I-win button for light vs light mech combat.

The blocking of LRM/SSRM lockon, and hiding enemy positions I don't mind.

[Windsaw]

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

LRMS AND SSRMs REQUIRE ABSOLUTELY NO SKILL TO USE.
now that THAT's out of the way...

I've never been much of an LRM user but I never got the impression that LRMs take no skill to use, quite on the contrary.
Skilled LRM usage requires:
- A good sense on how to position yourself for optimal use.
- Requires teammates for spotting. Those teammates have to keep locks and use TAGs.
- Requires timing and a good sense of the enemies positions. I see so many LRM useres who span their missiles into the sides of buildings.

Ironically, the introduction of the extended TAG (as a counter to ECM) range and ECM reduced the amount of skill that could be involved in the use of LRMs.

[Rushin Roulette]

ECM alone isnt a problem... what is a problem however is the combination of ECM + Maneuverability + Streaks.

A D-DC doesnt pose much trouble, because they are more or less slightly mobile turrets.

PLace that ECM into a Commando or a Raven with SSRMs and they will be running circles around 80% of the mechs ingame. While they can use the no skill weapons, you cant, so while they can happer away at you without any trouble at all you are forced to shooting at them with manually aim weapons fro the very short time they are infront of you.

[Onyx]

The problem isn't so much that ECM as a concept is broken, but that ECM itself offers an undue advantage to the team with more ECM due to poor mechanics.

Let's first look at the light problems. Light mechs are very hard to hit. Partly because they're small and fast, but mostly because hit detection is base broken with them due to any lag issues. Hitting a light mech with any weapon is a chore to begin with due to lag issues, but hitting them with, E.G. PPCs or Ballistics is often a lesson in futility due to hit issues with the latency code.

Following up on this, ECM offers a snowball advantage to whichever team has more of it than the other. ECM by nature removes SSRMs and LRMs from the enemy team from affecting you and yours. However, this effect is very one-sided if ECM isn't 1:1 balanced between teams. That is to say, ECM directly counters ECM on a 1:1 basis. If you have 1 ECM but the enemy has 2, they effectively and permanently have ECM up (one counters, other ECMs) while you can't counter or have ECM up, effectively nullifying your ECM while they have no problems. When this happens, they can use SSRMs and LRMs, but you can't. This is a very big issue when combined with the first point since it basically guarantees that the team with more ECM wins by proxy of having better light-hunting weapons in SSRMs, if nothing else, and can gain ECM domination.

Continuing on this, since you can't lock on enemies, if you don't spot the enemy visually, they are invisible as they don't show on the hud until within 200m. Freedom of movement is huge when trying to do surprise attacks or, say, stealth cap a base, and this should not be discounted. On this point, I've actually won 5v1 in conquest with a raven 3L because I could move freely and kept at least 1 base capped after an early-game advantage in points.

Additionally, not knowing where your allies are or where enemies are attacking from on the minimap in any direction except straight forward (relative the cockpit) means you can't properly react to situations, further exacerbating the issue.

When all of these are taken together, ECM gives way too large an advantage to only one team in most cases, and that team is more often going to win than not due to how one-sided the ECM advantage becomes purely based on one team having ECM and the other being denied it due to ECM countering only 1 ECM per.

Edited by Onyx, 02 March 2013 - 06:27 PM.

[Pihb]

The only problem i have with ecm is how well it works with ssrm's. It's a small problem at that. Most of the people complaining about ecm are the mouth breathers who use lrm's. Something about "how dare you make us use weapons we have to aim!".

[Jerod Drekmor]

Here it goes again, person who dont have SKILL to USE COVER. If you die to lrms its only 2 posible: 1-you are in open and you should die. 2-Someone is taging/spotting you and you should die unless you break lock/hide.

Missiles are valid part, Its called supresive fire....its supose to make you hide, duck and not alow to go rambo on others.....but I see lot of folks play to much fps these days and have lots of problem with it.

[Flapdrol]

ECM doesnt hardcounter streaks, it counters streaks only for the people who have more of it.

It removes friendlies from the hud and radar, very annoying.

ECM doesn't do much agianst LRM, since the lrm boats can simply bring a tag.

[One Medic Army]

Pihb, on 28 February 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

The only problem i have with ecm is how well it works with ssrm's. It's a small problem at that. Most of the people complaining about ecm are the mouth breathers who use lrm's. Something about "how dare you make us use weapons we have to aim!".

On the contrary, LRMs aren't really affected by ECM so long as you bring a TAG and do your own LOS spotting. Utilizing indirect fire is/was usually a good way to just waste a bunch of ammunition.
ECM has just encouraged people to use LRMs in the most efficient manner, and swat the light mechs away from the LRM users (or carry backup weapons to drive off ECM light mechs)

[Pihb]

Jerod Drekmor, on 28 February 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

Here it goes again, person who dont have SKILL to USE COVER. If you die to lrms its only 2 posible: 1-you are in open and you should die. 2-Someone is taging/spotting you and you should die unless you break lock/hide.

Missiles are valid part, Its called supresive fire....its supose to make you hide, duck and not alow to go rambo on others.....but I see lot of folks play to much fps these days and have lots of problem with it.

I didn't say I died to lrm's. Way to get excited and make a condescending jerk out of yourself. We can call lrm's valid if that's what you are into.

[Tincan Nightmare]

If ECM is not broken and perfectly balanced as is, why is it only available for certain Chassis? All other weapons and equipment, from DHS, endo, Artemis, and NARC or BAP can be carried by any mech, as long as it has the necessary free tonnage and space (and hardpoint if a weapon.) But yet ECM is restricted to just a few variants of a few mechs. If ECM is fine as it is, why can't I put it in a Hunchback, or an Awesome, or any other mech that I wish. The fact that they had to reduce the number of mechs that could carry it to lower proliferation is proof of how overpowered it currently is. If you don't think so, go to the thread about the hero Cicada and count the number of 'if its got ECM I'm buying' posts that have shown up.

[Pihb]

The only way ecm is game braking to you is if you use lock on weapons. If you stick together, know whats going on around you, and focus fire, and learn to aim, you will not care about ecm. Stop relying on your radar, its fallible.

[Icemantas]

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

I don't feel like ECM is too good, it feels fine.

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

i use ECM

oh wow, thats a shocker, the "my weapon is fine" argument

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

LRMS AND SSRMs REQUIRE ABSOLUTELY NO SKILL TO USE.

against no skill players that fail to use cower

[Terror Teddy]

<p>The problem with the ECM is the No-Lock bubble which is silly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If they want that bubble balanced they could make it two way so that no-one inside the bubble can get any lock on anyone outside the bubble.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Also, this snippet from SARNA is interesting:</p>
<p> </p>
<div>

Quote

<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; font-size: 11px; line-height: 16.5px; ">The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. <u><strong>Sensors can sometimes override this jamming</strong></u>, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.</span>

</div>

[Teralitha]

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Serious question.
I don't feel like ECM is too good, it feels fine.

I mean, yes it negates targeting data for allies within a small radius, but even having the element of surprise, a better pilot will win in a brawl most of the time. I really feel like this "cloak" advantage is negligible at best.
isn't this supposed to be a team based game?

Personally the reason i use ECM is not as a pseudo-stealth, but because it does such a good job at nerfing LRMS.

I don't have a problem being paired against opponents with ECM, albeit i'm far and away better than the average player, but even so I fail to see how ECM is breaking ANYTHING.
It's main function is to provide an advantage against the lowest skill-intensive weapons in the game: LRMs and SSRMs.
I'm going to say that once and for all

LRMS AND SSRMs REQUIRE ABSOLUTELY NO SKILL TO USE.
now that THAT's out of the way...

I'd actually bet that the average person who complains about ECM is not actually losing to ECM, but is rather just a terrible pilot who wants an excuse as to why he's getting killed.

Lets be real here, guys. If you rely on LRMS to get kills, you deserve to be paired up against ECM. it makes using lrms more difficult, and therefore takes (albeit still a tremendously tiny amount) more pilot ability to use.

i just don't get it.
exactly how is ECM broken?

Oh but LRM's and SSRMS do need a little skill to use well. Anything that requires good positioning to make the best use of is still skill....

ECM isnt a skill. I wouldnt care if it blocked missles, as long as thats ALL it did. This radar blackout is whats broken. Totally nerfs tactical play and allows skillless noobs to run wild and free in the open. its an annoying feature to deal with or even use. Just isnt fun.

[Terror Teddy]

Teralitha, on 28 February 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

Oh but LRM's and SSRMS do need a little skill to use well. Anything that requires good positioning to make the best use of is still skill....

ECM isnt a skill. I wouldnt care if it blocked missles, as long as thats ALL it did. This radar blackout is whats broken. Totally nerfs tactical play and allows skillless noobs to run wild and free in the open. its an annoying feature to deal with or even use. Just isnt fun.

Not to mention that it shouldn't be foolproof as it is apparently possible for your sensors to breach the jamming according to SARNA.

[Moromillas]

Yeah, it looks like you just died to LRM fire.

You poor dear, would you like me to send them an angry letter?

I just died to laser fire, perhaps those are OP too.

[Shadowsword8]

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

i just don't get it.
exactly how is ECM broken?

ECM is broken because you don't ask youself if it's worth removing 2 heat sinks or a beagle probe to put ECM on your mech. It is obvious that it is worth it, therefore it's a must-have, and must-have is another word for broken.

ECM is also broken because it's a bunble of 3 different TT ECM systems: Angel ECM, Guardian ECM, and Null-Signature System. The NSS alone should take 7 slots and generate heat equivalent to a permanently active large energy weapon.


I find it funny that you complain about LRM being a "no-skill" system, and yet:

- ECM is permanently active, AoE, and doesn't even require line of sight. You can't do more no-skill that that.

- ECM has negligible fitting requirements, and won't impose any sacrifice: it won't force you to make a choice and live with it's consequences. It weight 1.5 tons? Big deal, you'll remove one heat sink and shave 9 armor points from the legs (no one aim for them anyway).
The "no-skill" LRM user, at least, has to sacrifice his ability to defend himself against anything close, where to put his potentially mech-killing explosive ammos, and so on.

Edited by Shadowsword8, 28 February 2013 - 03:00 AM.

[Revorn]

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Personally the reason i use ECM is not as a pseudo-stealth, but because it does such a good job at nerfing LRMS.

So u need ECM help to avoid being hitted by LRMS? But hey, dont you try to tell us next, that you are what? Being far better than the average Player?

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

I don't have a problem being paired against opponents with ECM, albeit i'm far and away better than the average player, but even so I fail to see how ECM is breaking ANYTHING.

You also seems also to be far away better in Epic Failing at Thikning. Anything is a absoulte Word, so everyone knows the ECM dont brake a chiniese Ricefarmers Plantpott.

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

LRMS AND SSRMs REQUIRE ABSOLUTELY NO SKILL TO USE.
now that THAT's out of the way...

Seems you would like it that way. Bad news, your Words dont change Reality. And it seems, that you have Problems at understanding Reality.

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

i just don't get it.

Yeh, we already hat this one. You dont get it. Good Luck for your next Troll.

Edited by Revorn, 28 February 2013 - 03:12 AM.