100 replies to this topic

[Terror Teddy]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

An LRM player is not punished with a low torso twist range, because at the ranges he is fighting, enemies cannot move that fast that he would be unable to turn and twist to keep them in his sight.

No, but they sure get hurt if you lower their maximum engine power so that a the A1 becomes the slowest chassi of all A1's AND punish builds like LRM that might want to get into positions fast or to try and outrun other mechs.

Of the chassis in the heavy range the Cataphract and the Catapult share the same max speed apart from the 4X that can go at 59km/h

The Dragon can go up to 97.

So what you propose is that it should be the second slowest mech of all variants in the heavy mech tree (about 12 of them) because ONE configuration is very good with speed.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 10 March 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

97.

So what you propose is that it should be the second slowest mech of all variants in the heavy mech tree (about 12 of them) because ONE configuration is very good with speed.

I only propose the torso twist change. The speed nerf I think is unneeded. The torso twist rate is the biggest balance issue. It's a perk the mech has without sacrificing anything for it.

[Kell Commander]

My brother is a very good Jenner pilot, but alone he cannot kill a Raven 3L. This is where a PPC Stalker REALLY comes in handy. He will ask where I am, I respond, and he says "Leading a Raven to you." He turns a corner and runs by me, Ravens come flying around the corner and BAM 2 ER PPC's and 2 PPC's. ECM goes down and the rest of the team goes "Hey look a Raven!"

Raven never gets a chance to run away.

[Terror Teddy]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 March 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

I only propose the torso twist change. The speed nerf I think is unneeded. The torso twist rate is the biggest balance issue. It's a perk the mech has without sacrificing anything for it.

Good point.

Still, I would say that the mech sacrifice a lot by being overspecialized. I still think they should add a pariof ballistic slots and reduce missile slots to 4. It's essentially a combo the cats dont have.

IF they would give it 4 ballistic and 4 missile it would also need a twist speed reduction since it gains 2 more weapon mounts than any of the other.

[Oy of MidWorld]

Vassago Rain, on 10 March 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

It's an apex mech. Everybody bows to it, and would rather go somewhere else.

Nobody bows to a Splatapult, and especially not to it's pilot. Everybody fears it because it takes no skill at all to be effective. Weapon group management? Nope. Aiming? Nope. Just run into the next enemy and fire. Even a complete i-diot can be dangerous in it. If somebody who knows what he's doing pilots it, it has extreme advantages, as you pointed out very well.

Only downside is everybody supposing you're an i-diot who can't aim. Which can actually be an advantage if you don't care.

That's why it's an ̶a̶̶p̶̶e̶̶x̶ cheese mech.

Edited by Oy of MidWorld, 10 March 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[Hammerhai]

I so love these "Don't hurt my favourite toy" threads.
I actually got a Splatcat to run from my Jenner. In his defense the guy just lost his nerve when his left ear kept getting tagged all the time, and he must have been inexperienced to give me that gap. (Conquest on Frozen City near Theta running battle.
Here is the catch:
What with one thing and another that ear took 6 ML repeatedly - at least 4 times - from behind and when the man said cheers I'm leaving it was still very much intact.
But, of course, I do low damage all the time, no matter what I drive.
Oh no, not OP at all, not at all. Scuse me now while I now go l2aim as one of the best pistol shots in the old SADF officer corps in his time. State rewind helps, but I have the sneaking suspicion a lot of damage STILL passes right through the target

[SirLANsalot]

Hammerhai, on 10 March 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

I so love these "Don't hurt my favorite toy" threads.

I never claimed I used these mechs. In fact I love shooting them. I use a CTF-4x with 4 AC/5 and 2 ML, that mech chews these "cheese" mechs up like candy. All 3 atlas's I have do the same with the AC20 and pair of LPL or Large lasers.

[darkfall13]

SirLANsalot, on 10 March 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Catapult A1.

I like to pick on this one the most since it really is the most useless of all the catapults outside of a coordinated 8v8. This mech was made for one purpose, and thats LRM's.....lots of LRM's.

I think it's funny because if you do this then you still get called out as being a n00b or cheese build or boating... well a mech with only 1 weapon system doesn't have much choices, mix SRMs and LRMs? Have half your damage NOT being applied when the other is?

[Vahnn]

SirLANsalot, on 10 March 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

So lets take a look at the "cheese" mechs that certain people like to whine about. Mind you, some of these "builds" have been around since CB.

[Just quoted the first part here for the sake of space.]

I appreciate this post, because I'm one of those guys who doesn't understand all the complaining and incessant whining about so-called "cheese." Yes, I just had a game where a splatpult circled behind me (after I dished out 600 damage and took quite a bit myself) and fired a single volley and killed me. No, I don't care that he killed me with a 6 SRM6 alpha. Why? He spent that entire match wandering around, completely useless and doing no damage at all for the first 7 minutes of that match, which had consisted of long-range trade-off engagements.

Finally, when the fighting simmers down and my team is left to clean up the remaining 3 mechs on their team, he managed to get behind me and get a kill. 1 kill. He was quickly obliterated by my teammates moments later. His lack of ranged firepower and his need to had and skulk about was the downfall of their team. Had he been raining LRMs on our scouts or overextended/exposed brawlers, they could have won.

And it's like that for every "cheese" build you see people whining about. People like to get up close and just blast with everything they have until they die. That's largely been the name of the game. When someone comes along with a build that challenges their concept of what the game should be, they complain about it instead of taking a step back, looking at what's going on, and finding a solution.

You can't handle that ECM + Streak 3L Raven? Boo f*cking hoo, sometimes you can't win. Fall back and make him chase you into a crowd of your mediums/heavies. He'll either die in seconds or scurry off to hide like the b*tch player he is.

There is a weakness to every cheese build. The 6 PPC Stalker realizes most players like to just equip all the hard-hitting close-range weapons they can fit... Which makes them useless at long range. So they equip long-range weapons to kill you before you can get close? I don't even call this cheese. I call it brilliant and ballsy.

Stop crying and THINK, for crying out loud!

[bloodnor]

tired of reading about cheeze

[Vahnn]

bloodnor, on 10 March 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

tired of reading about cheeze

Then read OP (and my post), because we're telling people to get over it. Cheese doesn't exist. People's lack of objectivity and inability to adapt are the problem. Not "cheese."

[Hedonism Robot]

The problem is people are complaining about stuff that isn't even "cheese". Usually what makes something "cheese" is when the mech/strategy is easily executed and hard to counter, but can get shut down hard. In starcraft 2 building cannons outside someones base was a cheese way to win. I have seen people call the ECM cheese, but it's just OP!

[Pat Kell]

If these "cheese" builds are so powerful and unstopable...why isn't everyone using them?


Adapt or die.

[Dreamslave]

Vassago Rain, on 10 March 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

How is using the supreme short-ranged weapon on a Sonic fast platform, with assault mech durability (bodyshape), and jumpjets for ninja mobility, somehow a weakness? It's an apex mech. Everybody bows to it, and would rather go somewhere else.

I'm a catapult hunter, and I always have to pray for the 50% hit reg problem to befall the A1s. Rememeber this. When they fix that, with state rewind for missiles, and you suddenly put out 90 damage for real each alpha?

There will be blood.

The catapult is not fast, at least in terms of the mechs my MercGroup uses. It's center torso and "ears" are laughably easy to destroy and its JJ's don't help it, but actually hinder it, making it an easier-to-hit flying target. It dies within seconds of focused fire and is only a threat when forgotten about, which good pilots don't do.

State rewind for missiles though, idk....that could be bad. We'll see.

[bloodnor]

Vahnn, on 10 March 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Then read OP (and my post), because we're telling people to get over it. Cheese doesn't exist. People's lack of objectivity and inability to adapt are the problem. Not "cheese."

that's my stance exactly

[MustrumRidcully]

Pat Kell, on 10 March 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

If these "cheese" builds are so powerful and unstopable...why isn't everyone using them?


Adapt or die.

Because they are considered cheese builds. There are plenty of people that deliberately avoid cheese builds, because they find it lame. There are also people that have never tried these cheese builds and don't know how good they are. And then, actually being able to afford one of these mechs is difficult for some players.

It's a fallacy believing just because a certain build or ability is overpowered that automatically everyone will have them. You will find a significant prevalence of such builds among highly competitive gamers that indeed like to win when they are competing with others, and even if they might find the imbalance distasteful, are willing to adopt such builds so that they know that when they lose, it's really due to their skill, not lame tricks.

[Hammerhai]

"I never claimed I used these mechs. In fact I love shooting them. I use a CTF-4x with 4 AC/5 and 2 ML, that mech chews these "cheese" mechs up like candy. All 3 atlas's I have do the same with the AC20 and pair of LPL or Large lasers."


No disrespect to you , LANSalot. At least you explain the why of it. But a lot of ppl are awfully defensive about a potential nerfbat such as torso twist.
However, I have found the internet to be a place where you air your opinion, true discussion is rare. (And I am guilty of that myself)
Hey, back when the Jenner was so hated I felt the same about my favourite toy. However, when I pull of an Atlas leg with 3-4 alphas, but cannot take off an A1 ear - hmmmmm. I just wonder if there is not more to the hit detection issues than just a state rewind. Which has helped greatly, though

Edited by Hammerhai, 10 March 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[Terror Teddy]

darkfall13, on 10 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Have half your damage NOT being applied when the other is?

To be fair, that could be said of ANYONE using LRM's as a secondary weapon system.

I use LRM5's on my X5 Cicada as primary engagement before joining the fray - It's about flexibility not being able to always give alpha damage.

The A1 with Twin LRM15 and X4 SRM6 would not be bad combo and give it flexibility.

[LordBraxton]

Vassago Rain, on 10 March 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

I don't think there's anything in the game that draws aggro quite like a white catapult. It doesn't matter what variant it is. It's a catapult, and it's white? KILL IT WITH FIRE, BEFORE IT KILLS US! White and black on the cat is like dartfrog skin. It signals death. Stay away, or put it down as fast as possible.

I've even had plenty success drawing agro in a white atlas. This, the cave, and the natural instict to put cats down before anything else, all pretty much show the mech's had serious effects on the game.

its true Cats of all kinds are top of the fire priority list, they are by far the most optimized mech so far, with protected side torsos\JJs\speed and some of the best hard point layouts in the game.

There really is NO downside to the Catapult Chassis, that's my problem with it. (cockpit maybe?)

SURE there are downsides to certain Cat builds, but really no inherent flaws with the chassis.

Any other mech that comes close to the Catapult in versatility and power are gimped by easy to pick out hit locations and less maneuverable torsos.

[KinLuu]

Oy of MidWorld, on 10 March 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Nobody bows to a Splatapult, and especially not to it's pilot. Everybody fears it because it takes no skill at all to be effective. Weapon group management? Nope. Aiming? Nope. Just run into the next enemy and fire. Even a complete i-diot can be dangerous in it. If somebody who knows what he's doing pilots it, it has extreme advantages, as you pointed out very well.

Only downside is everybody supposing you're an i-diot who can't aim. Which can actually be an advantage if you don't care.

That's why it's an ̶a̶̶p̶̶e̶̶x̶ cheese mech.

It is the best brawler in game currently. Nothing comes even close. It reigns supreme in its dominion.

Basically, a SRM A1 is a giant, chickenwalking "YOU MAD BRO? YOU MAD?" sign.