100 replies to this topic

[Sears]

Vassago Rain, on 10 March 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

The A1's made going cave on forest something only the newest or boldest would ever consider. The cat cave, where the white whales live.

I was once in a pug game where the blob decided to go tunnel, they met an A1 in there. I don't know how he/she managed it but they did no damage to our team. A rare occurrence, one that I was actually surprised by.

I like playing the HBK-4G, and I find splat cats to be difficult as they operate in the same weapon ranges, they're faster than me, have more armour, jump jets and an alpha bordering in 3 times as much. All from an extra 15 tons.

Edited by Sears, 10 March 2013 - 04:51 AM.

[Wrenchfarm]

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

Of course it's faster - It's a HEAVY - they ARE faster than assaults.

So you are saying that because assaults are slower and mediums will have problems FLEEING fast enough there is no co-ordinated way to take down a heavy with XL engine before it becomes a threat?

Or getting ANOTHER heavy with the same speed and possible firepower to INTERCEPT the A1 before it gets to close to the assaults.



Of course not - but how many chassis do MWO have where ALL their weapons are in 2 locations ONLY. Not many.


And this is why one has scouts, to mark that sucker for LRM's or TAG him.



You know - they CAN be shot when they are OUTSIDE of 270 meters - might not be destroyed but most likely damaged and more easily damaged later.

Nothing changes the fact that the hull is limited so the splatcat becomes a onetrick pony that WORKS but to say the chassis is OP is not right.

Dangerous: Hell Yea.
Overpowered?: No

Listen to yourself. When you have to treat a single unit of the enemy team like a miniboss, do you think that is balanced?

Can you think of another build that requires a team to instantly divert it's entire attention to neutralize it before it can do harm?

Why are you defending it exactly?

[JohnathanSwift]

Wrenchfarm, on 10 March 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

Listen to yourself. When you have to treat a single unit of the enemy team like a miniboss, do you think that is balanced?

Can you think of another build that requires a team to instantly divert it's entire attention to neutralize it before it can do harm?

Why are you defending it exactly?

PGI


After running with it in KONG all I can say is that it's a walking shotgun with some registry issues * although that might be because of the rewind * and seems hardly bothered by its side torsos. It goes 90 with speed tweak, jumps over most obstacles, carries most of its armor, can alpha repeatedly and can occupy an entire team. This becomes serious meta because you can turn every cataphract 3d, assault and light to you while 7 mechs begin taking advantage of the chaos.

Shoot the ears? Good luck, I fly, can spin my head and go 90. Focus fire? I hope you like being in the open against enemy poptarts and UAC mechs. Even on alpine the great speed of the splatter cat can allow it to scale the large mountain side and swing around behind the assaults before they notice, stopping the LRM and PPC fire early.

Edited by JohnathanSwift, 10 March 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Wrenchfarm, on 10 March 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

Listen to yourself. When you have to treat a single unit of the enemy team like a miniboss, do you think that is balanced?
Can you think of another build that requires a team to instantly divert it's entire attention to neutralize it before it can do harm?
Why are you defending it exactly?

Oh, so no-one has raged over OP builds before that the team needs to look out for before it can do harm?

Allright, how should it be balanced?

The hull itself? Cut down on torso twist or tilt? That would punish it if it would run any weapon combo.

Change the Hardpoint layout? To what? 4 Missile and side torso ballistics and perhaps a pair of ballistics in the CT? But that would probably be op as well because then it could boat loads of ballistics.

EDIT: I think I would be OK with that actually.

Restrict SRM6 to less damage or more spread or more heat? Great, now we punish EVERYONE who wants to use SRM6 due to one chassis design flaw.

Restrict that chassis engine speed? Ok, now we have tightened the noose on the flexibility of that chassis even MORE.

Increased heat on weapons of the same type in the same location? Great, now anyone trying ANY kind of even limited boating will be punished due to one chassis flawed design.

Seriously, give me a good respons to HOW it it should be brought back into the fold of a balanced design without impacting the hull as a whole or impact every other player.

Also - I dont even play the damn thing but I have been killed by it several times, it's too limited for my taste.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 10 March 2013 - 05:12 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Sears, on 10 March 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

I like playing the HBK-4G, and I find splat cats to be difficult as they operate in the same weapon ranges, they're faster than me, have more armour, jump jets and an alpha bordering in 3 times as much. All from an extra 15 tons.

That's what fifteen tonnes DO get you. Should I complain that a HBK-4J at 50 tonnes have so much more armour and can carry more weapons than me as well?

[Wrenchfarm]

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Oh, so no-one has raged over OP builds before that the team needs to look out for before it can do harm?

Allright, how should it be balanced?

The hull itself? Cut down on torso twist or tilt? That would punish it if it would run any weapon combo.

Change the Hardpoint layout? To what? 4 Missile and side torso ballistics and perhaps a pair of ballistics in the CT? But that would probably be op as well because then it could boat loads of ballistics.

Restrict SRM6 to less damage or more spread or more heat? Great, now we punish EVERYONE who wants to use SRM6 due to one chassis design flaw.

Restrict that chassis engine speed? Ok, now we have tightened the noose on the flexibility of that chassis even MORE.

Increased heat on weapons of the same type in the same location? Great, now anyone trying ANY kind of even limited boating will be punished due to one chassis flawed design.

Seriously, give me a good respons to HOW it it should be brought back into the fold of a balanced design without impacting the hull as a whole or impact every other player.

Also - I dont even play the damn thing but I have been killed by it several times, it's too limited for my taste.

Lower engine maxium.
Smaller torso twist.
Re-bounded side hitboxes.

Perhaps changes to the SRMs. They are brutal now, best tonnage:destruction value in the game. When they register properly they will be unstoppable.

Boom, fixed.

Also, it isn't my job or my fault PGI put this broken piece of crap in the game. Me pointing out how utterly overpowered it is in even half-competent hands doesn't mean I suddenly shoulder the responsibility of fixing it.

[Moonsavage]

Who is OP trying to convince when he denies that a 6 x SRM6 CAT-A1, capable of killing all non-Assault mechs in one or two volleys, is not Cheese?

[Hawks]

I've face innumerable Splatcats in my brawler Atlas, and it's almost inevitably ended badly for the A1.

[Terror Teddy]

Wrenchfarm, on 10 March 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Lower engine maxium.
Smaller torso twist.
Re-bounded side hitboxes.

Ok, so slower to get away if the player wants to have LRM's instead and overall punished because ONE of the configurations are powerful?

How much slower? 65 is base speed so what? 70? 73?

[Edustaja]

It takes either exceptional pilot in a ranged build or superior numbers and focus fire to beat down the A1 before it gets into range.

I've seen the best pilots pull off strike after strike of pinpoint alphas on the ears and strip them off. This however requires a lot of skill and luck while the A1 pilot just needs to jump around and splat away.

Mechs like the 4P hunchback or the 3D cataphract can win against a A1 if piloted properly and with some luck. But the A1 wins in most situations.

[maxmarechal]

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_de_fromages_français

cheese...we know about cheese....

Edited by maxmarechal, 10 March 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Well, it is a build that excels at 1 vs 1 but will have a lot of problems with continous fire against multiple opponents due to heat.

maxmarechal, on 10 March 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_de_fromages_français

The only thing that made me was hungry as I couldnt read a word.

[Sears]

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

That's what fifteen tonnes DO get you. Should I complain that a HBK-4J at 50 tonnes have so much more armour and can carry more weapons than me as well?

You can complain if you want to. I'm just highlighting that the splat can do whatever a stock Hunchy can do and a lot better and in most cases a modified one. That an it's not just a case of focusing down it's ears when it can travel faster than you. It reminds me of a thread which is probably lost to the ether where people were arguing as to why anyone would take a medium over a heavy.

Besides I think it's more down to the SRMs themselves as apposed to the Cat-A1. They give you some of the best damage for the weight, and the ammo is pretty generous. My centurions use SRMs wherever they can cram them, gives me the same fire power as ballistics more or less but I get a massive speed boost with saved weight.

[Mizore]

***** n stuff, on 10 March 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

No it wasn't, it was introduces at the same time as ECM as it has ECM stock. The 4X and the 2X were introduced in closed beta, and have been mostly considered useless since their introduction.

I'm sorry to correct you, but all 3 variants of the Raven were introduced at the same time.
The ECM on the Raven 3L was just a dummy-version at that time and didn't work, but it allready has been there!

Edited by Mizore, 10 March 2013 - 05:50 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

came expecting a review of http://mwomercs.com/...529-the-cheese/

left dissapointed

Edustaja, on 10 March 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

It takes either exceptional pilot in a ranged build or superior numbers and focus fire to beat down the A1 before it gets into range.

or you aim for the bullseye (by that I mean the head as the head on a cat is easy as hell to hit)

[Livewyr]

Food for thought.

A1 can only mount SRMs as reliable weapons with current ECM.
LRMs hope there is no ECM
Same with SSRMs..

Can't mount anything else.

Insta cheese brought on by Cheese Equipment.

[Terror Teddy]

Livewyr, on 10 March 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

Food for thought.

A1 can only mount SRMs as reliable weapons with current ECM.
LRMs hope there is no ECM
Same with SSRMs..

Can't mount anything else.

Insta cheese brought on by Cheese Equipment.

Very much my point as well.

It cannot use anything but missiles and since we dont have MRM's yet or rockets or any middle ground alternative the SRM's are the ONLY way for the A1 chassis to do ANY damage unless it want to be afraid of ECM.

Also:
X6 SRM6 takes 11,1 Seconds per tonne to emty. 8 tonnes of ammo run dry after 88,8 Seconds.
I've seen plenty of drawn out matches were the A1 becomes useless after not having any ammo left.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 10 March 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[Lootee]

The A1s that load up on nothing but SRMs, I don't blame them. What other weapon can they mount that works 100% of the time?

Because they have no energy hard points they can't put a TAG, rendering LRMs completely worthless if the enemy has ECM unless you bribe someone to be your slave and TAG things for you 24-7. Ditto for streaks.

2 of the *ONLY* 3 weapons they could mount may or may not even function depending on whether the random matchmaker puts them up against an enemy team with ECM. They have no energy hardpoints which means no TAG and no PPC. So what do you expect them to do? The SRM36 Cat IS THE ONLY VIABLE BUILD for the A1.

The blame for this lies squarely on PGI. Before a certain 1.5 ton piece of garbage showed up you used to see A1s with a balanced mix of LRMs and Streaks and/or regular SRMs.

The game balance is terrible, it's either 1 extreme or another. There is no middle ground. It's either LRMs dominate or are useless. Streaks dominate or are useless. Same for SRMs. Why can't PGI find a nice middle ground where LRMs are good but not overpowering. Same for streaks, SRMs and ECM. The TT game had a nice balance, but it's all FUBAR'd here.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 10 March 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Indeed it can only reliably mount regular SRMs, due to current systems negating weapons (bad balance design), but loading up on 6 SRM's is an easy way to frontload massive damage all at once. As long as there are ways for a player to achieve a kill instantly, it will be exploited.

I have been a proponent of featuring missiles in this game to 'ripple fire' as a pseudo-balancing measure and to differentiate their functionality if/when PGI decides to implement the various assortment of missile systems later on. If LRMs did so, an AMS would probably have time to shoot down more or misses would occur a lot more often (making high damage potential a pay-off).

If an SRM 'ripple fired,' a user would have to take care to aim them as they keep firing, rather than all at once. The damage pay-off would require more skill. I'd rather see their damage be reduced to 2.2, have the SRM flight path far less eratic (near straight), and ripple fire.

Edited by General Taskeen, 10 March 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

Ok, so slower to get away if the player wants to have LRM's instead and overall punished because ONE of the configurations are powerful?

How much slower? 65 is base speed so what? 70? 73?

An LRM player is not punished with a low torso twist range, because at the ranges he is fighting, enemies cannot move that fast that he would be unable to turn and twist to keep them in his sight.

The Catapult by lore is a fire support mech. That means it normally operates at long range. It doesn't need a high torso twist range for that.
The "melee" Catapult with AC/20 or SRMs is deemed very powerful, in some cases OP. Nerfing its torso twist range balances those.

So, yes, lower the torso twist range. If a mech should have such a twist range, it's probably the Jagermech, because it is by lore an anti-aircraft mech, and to track aircrafts, you need the twist range.


What I agree with however is that it doesn't need a speed nerf. THe twist range is a key feature that enabled every "OP" version of the Catapult. It was also a problem for the K2 Gauss Kitty that people loved in times of single heat sinks. Only mech at the time to boat the best weapon in the game then (it's no longer the best weapon, thanks to DHS, just a good one), increase torso twist range, and you don't even need to put armour on your arms? Great, imbalanced combination.

I would also like to point out that the SRMs itself are also an issue. The problem is probably again the binary nature of PGI balancing.

SRMs are pretty much useless at ranges beyond 120m or so. Most your missiles will simply miss, even if you were good enough to lead your shot accurately all the time. So at 120+m, it's damage is worthless.
But at close range, it's damage is too good. You can deal almost pinpoint damage at close ranges, an for those ranges, the damage output is too high. 90 damage can almost take out an Atlas arm (and very likely will kill something inside it.)

Lower its damage output, straighten the flight path of the missiles, so the damage isn't spread out that much at range. This way, people can start using the SRMs earlier and be effective, but lose at close range.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 10 March 2013 - 08:36 AM.