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Counter To Light Mechs?


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#1 Biggieboy

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:18 PM

Hi guys,

I'm enjoying the game and doing pretty ok, there's just one thing i'm having problems with...

Light...mechs *shudder*

it frequently happens that I get surrounded by a wolf pack of light mechs, and they're tougher than you might think to take them down.

So, any general tips on how to tackle light mechs?

Thanks in advance!

#2 Krazy Kat

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:10 PM

Don't get caught alone. Stick with a friend. No friends playing? Just pick a heavy or assault mech at the start of the game and stay close. Not too close.

#3 The Warspite

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:20 PM

Go for the legs. Hitting their upper body can spread damage across the head, CT, RT, LT, right and left arms... and the backs of the CT, RT and LT. Shoot at their legs and you'll hit either the left or right. Once one of them buckle, it's over...

#4 Forestal

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostBiggieboy, on 18 March 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Hi guys,

I'm enjoying the game and doing pretty ok, there's just one thing i'm having problems with...

Light...mechs *shudder*

it frequently happens that I get surrounded by a wolf pack of light mechs, and they're tougher than you might think to take them down.

So, any general tips on how to tackle light mechs?

Thanks in advance!

Since they usually come for me when I am sniping behind cover, I simply do a 180 deg turn and keep my back to the wall/cover so that they can never get behind me and have to face me head-on... yeah, this is sort of a last stand/ditch advice.

But if the light mechs are silly enough to keep circling me all the way behind my cover, I can-- 1) run for better cover or team assistance, or 2) just try popping them when they pop out from behind my cover.


However, the actual amount of "running-for-cover" vs "backing-up" you do should depend on the ratio of your armor distribution... with more back-armor (or better speed/piloting skills), you might try to dash for cover more often or over longer distance-- but with less back-armor, you might not want to break cover until you are sure you can make it.

Come to think of it, it's strange that no one in MWO seems to advocate using cover against lites, only the lrms-- cos that's how you actually make both strategic advances AND retreats in the army.

Edited by Forestal, 18 March 2013 - 08:22 PM.


#5 YueFei

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:26 PM

One idea I've been kicking around in my head is to borrow from World War 2 bomber flights and form a "combat box" of heavier mechs. Overlapping fields of fire, mutually supporting, and arrayed so that no matter what vector a light mech takes, at some point he'll be moving in a straight line directly toward or away from one of your heavier mechs, giving him a nice opportunity take hit hard on a zero deflection angle shot.

Simplest formation I can think of is a triangle, each mech ~120 meters apart. Shift slightly as needed to avoid risking friendly fire. It would take great discipline to maintain this.

#6 Forestal

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:22 PM

View PostYueFei, on 18 March 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

One idea I've been kicking around in my head is to borrow from World War 2 bomber flights and form a "combat box" of heavier mechs. Overlapping fields of fire, mutually supporting, and arrayed so that no matter what vector a light mech takes, at some point he'll be moving in a straight line directly toward or away from one of your heavier mechs, giving him a nice opportunity take hit hard on a zero deflection angle shot.

Simplest formation I can think of is a triangle, each mech ~120 meters apart. Shift slightly as needed to avoid risking friendly fire. It would take great discipline to maintain this.

Ahh, the "wild geese" formation

OOOOOOO
OOOAOOO
OOOOOOO
OAOOOAO
OOOOOOO

I've often thought of using this to cap on Conquest, on account the difficulty holding caps against solo light cappers-- the point being to trap/lure the light into circle-strafing one mech, while the other 2 mechs (the wings) lie in ambush from about 200m off (ready to "flap" or close in).

But this would require co-ordination between 3 people and current in-game chat/commands options just don't cut it-- though in any case, the solution against a team of light mechs is... teamwork.

#7 Koujo

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:18 AM

Wait for collisions to be reintroduced............and then step on them.

#8 Deathlike

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:20 AM

Lasers are your best friend vs light mechs... especially if they are pulse lasers.

#9 John MatriX82

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:35 AM

Bring in lasers, MLas is usually the better for weight/dmg/heat output, but you really need to keep it focused on them. host state rewind allows to land consistent hits on lights right now.

Try to mount lasers in the arms, the tracking is better on them than when using coaxial hardpoints.

Consider also MPLasers. Sure they get you hot, but they are effective both at hitting cts and side torsoes, but they do their best when hitting legs, much better than standard medium lasers.

The other best weapon are SRMs for good. Forget Streaks, they would be perfect, but 90% of the lights out there bring ECM so you would never be able to use them. If you can use ASRM6s, if they weight or occupy too slots use vanilla SRM4s.

And never wander alone, of course :)

#10 Pando

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:38 AM

Hey,

Sorry you're having problems with light battlemechs. Did you know we now have what would be referred to as "state rewind" with laser weapons in specific? Just shoot your lasers at the appropriate range at the light mech. Do not "lead" the mech, shoot directly at it with your lasers. You will see their paper doll (targeting data) reflect you hit them.

Let me know in PM if you have any other questions.

Pando

#11 ElLocoMarko

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:40 AM

No one seems to have said it yet: When caught out in the open by a faster mech that is spending a lot of time in your rear flank... Walk backward at maximum speed and turn the opposite direction of the light. This will get them crossing your gun sights 3x more than walking forward.

That said 2 lights on 1 heavy is almost a foregone conclusion so find the biggest wolf pack you can and stick with them. Try not to block line of sight to enemy heavies so you can all keep firing.

If you want to play a mech specifically to assassinate lights: Splat Cat. When your alpha is on target lights just explode... but they have to be making close passes. A savvy light won't do that.
In all other situations my quick kills have been when the Raven/Trollmando is circling a friendly and I line up big damage (AC20 or triple UAC5) with the Apex of their circle and let them have it. More reason to stay in a group.
I have a friend who swears by fast mediums (he uses centurion) to hunt lights. I don't know how he does it.

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 19 March 2013 - 06:48 AM.


#12 Icepick

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:48 AM

I'm assuming you are driving a heavy, so....

Getting into a turning fight with a light is foolish, don't do it.

Multiple lasers on chain fire, directed at the legs. When his leg armor gets red, he will run away in search of easier targets. Remember that at 150kph, his aim is almost as bad as yours, and chain-fire to the kneecaps keeps him hopping.

Don't waste heat on bad shots. Just keep tracking him, and hope he runs into something - when he does, count to three (for lag) and alpha his knees.

FFS don't overheat - he will park in front and shoot you right through the cockpit glass.

If he can't hit you in the back, then he loses a big advantage - Find a cliff to put your back against, turn around and let him have it. A good light pilot will bid you farewell at this point, scampering off to harass someone else.

#13 EmperorMyrf

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:17 AM

According to my stats, I am making almost the exact same amount of contact with both basic and pulse lasers, so the advantage there is nonexistent for me. I usually just stay with basic lasers as they run cooler and weigh less. I'm not sure if it's just me or if everyone is like this, but feel free to check for yourself.
But don't use the accuracy stat. Instead, use total_dmg / (weapon_dmg * shots fired). This represents the percentage of your beams that actually do damage, whereas your accuracy stat is how often any part of a single beam hits your target.

My main light killer as of late has been the AC/20. Once you find how much to lead on them while they circle you, you can hit them near every time. One hit will usually send them running, and if they don't run 2 hits will likely drop one.

This can also be done with the GR, but I seem to have a little trouble finding that sweet spot. Doesn't "feel" the same as an AC/20.

#14 BoydofZINJ

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:36 AM

Counter to light 'mechs?

Good aim and quick thinking.

Know thy weapons. Not all weapons are the same.

Small Lasers, Medium Lasers, Large Lasers (and the same for all pulses) are almost instant and as a result, if you have mostly lasers - track the target dead-on and fire.

(regular) Lasers (Small Lasers, Medium Lasers, Large Lasers) pulse longer and thus harder to keep on target and on the same area. If you ever fired on the ground and quickly turned - the lasers do pulse a bit and you will see the damage spread. (regular) Lasers (small, medium, and large) pulse longer than pulse lasers do.

Pulse Lasers (Small Pulse Lasers, Medium Pulse Lasers, and Large Pulse Lasers) pulse faster and thus can be easier to hit the same area for the duration of the beam. However, you need to have a good aim. If you are not hitting the target - you will also lose damage potential faster than regular lasers. Likewise, pulse lasers generate a bit more heat than the regular lasers.

Lasers (both pulse and regular) make fine weapons against fast lights. You can argue which one is better or worse; each has their weakness and strengths - regardless, both are GREAT against lights.

LRMs are useless if the enemy is under 180m. Please note, the range depends on when the missiles reach the target and not at the time they were fired. For instance, if you see a fast charging light at 190 meters - racing to you and you fire your LRMs, you will not hit the target. Even though the enemy target is at 190meters, by the time the LRMs reach the target - the target would have been under 180meters. LRMs, even with tag and narc and artemis have trouble doing damage against fast lights and sometimes will hit the ground more than the enemy fast light. Likewise, lights can sometimes dart into cover before your LRMs even hit; and your LRMs hit the cover and do no damage. Do not be mistaken though, a light can be QUICKLY destroyed by LRMs, though.

LRMs make a poor weapon choice against lights. (However, you can easily kill a light with enough LRMs or by catching a silly light player unaware. A Shut down light is easy to kill with LRMs - but that goes with any weapon too.)

SRMs are useless at range greater than 350meters. Generally, anything over 200 meters is pushing it with SRMs. Likewise, SRMs do not track and even with artemis they can pepper and spread - almost like a shotgun type attack. However, they can do tremendous amounts of damage and if used right you can destroy lights with them. Since they take a few seconds to reach the target aim a bit ahead of the target.

SRMs are average against lights.

Streak SRM 2 are a subset of SRMs. They use a special homing technology to allow them to lock on and fire. They are wonderful against lights. However, the many enemy lights will have ECM. ECM will shut down your Streaks, unless the target is countered by friendly ECM or the target is hit with a PPC (or ER PPC). If you can fire your SSRM2s, always do so, against a light. They should almost always hit. Of course, a mountain or building in the way... will still be in the way. Use some common sense. :lol:
SSRM2s are WONDERFUL against lights.

AC/2, AC/5, Ultra AC/5, AC/10 are ballistic weapons - there are a few others, and I will address them shortly. These ballistic weapons can do decent to good damage against 'mechs and against lights. You will need to lead the target slightly with these ballistics. Slightly - not too much. Once you perfect the "kentucky windage" (the act of firing a bit ahead of the target to compensate) then you can kill your lights easy! I wont bother mentioning damage or dps or heat. You can figure that one out.

AC/2, AC/5, Ultra AC/5, AC/10 ballistic weapons are good agaisnt lights.

AC/20s and Gauss Rifle. These can kill lights - sometimes in 1 or 2 hits. However, the ballistic shell or object takes more time to get to the target. You will need to compensate your aim a bit more than other ballistics. These weapons are not great weapons paired with lasers (fired at the same time) since most lights are circling you and you will need to aim ahead of the 'mech to hit with these weapons - the lasers will partially miss since you will not be aiming on the 'mech. AC/20s do the most damage, but have a shorter range and generate more heat. Gauss Rifle has a very long range and generates almost no heat. Either one can spell disaster for the light ... IF YOU CAN HIT THEM. Since you need to aim ahead of the light. There is a chance, the light pilot could evade the target. If you fire and the light changes course in that split second, you can miss.

AC/20s and Gauss Rifle are below average to hit lights with (but do SIGNIFICANT damage to them if you do).

PPCs and ER PPCs are the last weapons on the table. These weapons are technically beams, but act like ballistics and generate a ton of heat. PPC (not the ER PPC) do almost no damage upclose and have a shorter range than the ER PPC. ER PPC can do the same damage at point blank range and have a larger range than normal PPCs. They both do the same damage, but they generate a ton of heat. Both the ER PPC and PPC can temporarily turn off enemy ECM (from the Raven, for instance). If I am not mistaken they have the same speed as an AC/2 and thus are good to be paired with an AC/2, AC/5 or ultra AC/5 to hit a fast light. Just becareful of the heat and the minimum range of the PPCs.

PPCs make average weapons against lights.

The last weapon, the LB10x. This is the shot gun version of the AC/10. It spreads it shot and thus can make it both easier and harder to hit the enemy target. More than likely, you will hit the target in multiple areas. Which might be a good thing, which might not. I am not a fan of the LB10x. They have their advantages and disadvantages to them.

I put them in the GOOFY category. If the light is nearly at 100% armor, chances are the LB10x wont do much. Likewise, if the light is missing armor and has internal damage - the LB10x has a chance to hit that spot and cause a critical. GOOFY.

With that being said - aiming and shooting are only half the story. The other half is maneuvering. If you are being attacked by a light - think for a moment. What type of 'mech are you in?

If you are in a slow brute with a ton of armor - like an Atlas? One trick is to put your back to a wall or mountain. This will cover half of you and force the enemy light to be somewhere infront of you to attack you.

Are you in a fast 'mech - like a fast medium or light?

If so, do not hesitate - engage the enemy light.

Regardless, if you feel that you need help - be smart and ask for it. Especially, if you are in a 'mech that can not destroy lights upclose (such as a pure LRM build) you will need help. If you are in a stalker with mostly LRMs and run against lights - ask for help! Since many lights can carry ECM - such as the Raven 3L, both the enemy and you will dissappear from the radar. When you ask for help - tell your team mates where you are at. If you are at D3 facing lights type to your team, "I need help - lights at D3 - can not kill them."

just remember, if they are moving fast - that also means they do not have hard punching weapons either. Many 'mechs can withstand several hits (even on the weaker rear armor section) from lights.

Likewise, if one of your team mate makes the same help request... HELP THEM. If they kill your team mate - your team is down 1 'mech and those lights will be aiming for a new target... could be you. So if you kill them, not only are you helping your team - but you are making sure they are not on you too!

Lastly, if you are in a slow 'mech and a SINGLE light passes you by and runs for your base to cap it. DO NOT chase it - have a single 'mech or two go back to base - hopefully, fast 'mechs. Think about it. If your entire team turns around - the enemy has shots at your rear armor and you have less armor in the rear. Chances are, they want you to turn around. I am at work and doing this on the fly - but you get the jist. I wish there was a "training" ground where you can practice against moving fast targets and bots... lol

Edited by Boydsan, 19 March 2013 - 11:48 AM.


#15 BoydofZINJ

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:53 AM

View PostEmperorMyrf, on 19 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

According to my stats, I am making almost the exact same amount of contact with both basic and pulse lasers, so the advantage there is nonexistent for me.


The real question is... are you doing the same amount of damage with both and is that damage to the same location or multiple locations?

Pulse Lasers has a shorter duration (for the beam) and thus easier to hit the same target location - likewise, if your aim is off it also means that you are not doign as much damage to the target.

(Regular) Lasers will have a longer duration, but since most lights are moving - it will make it harder to keep the beam in the same target location.

My belief is that you are probably peppering your target more with (regular) lasers than pulse lasers. However, if your aim is not true - you might be loosing more potential damage to pulse lasers than medium lasers.

It is a tough call :)

I was looking at my stats and this is what I discovered:

Medium Lasers have been used (by me) in 100 matches and I have an 82.52% accuracy, while I have did 5,230 damage.

Medium Pulse Lasers have been used (by me) in 28 matches and I have a 87.55% accuracy, while I have did 2,630 damage.

That by itself is not enough information, but I also looked at this...

Large Laser have been used (by me) in 37 matches and I have a 91.41% accuracy, while I have did 2,270 damage.

Of course, this is a small sampe and means nothing by itself. But check out that Large Laser accuracy to damage and compare it to the Medium Pulse Laser. The Medium Pulse Laser does less damage than a Large Laser. As a result, if accuracy was entirely correct - the large laser should clearly be doing a signficant more damage? However, the stats do not mention how many times I fired the weapon in those matches or how many times I missed then hit and then missed (or hit then missed then hit) while the beam duration was on.

Translation: the stats wont tell the true story. However, play with what you feel is best and you will be at your best by default.

Edited by Boydsan, 19 March 2013 - 12:04 PM.


#16 EmperorMyrf

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:07 PM

yea i wish we could go even further in detail for the stats, but at least we get what we have. The comparison i made was the beam percentage that hits. My ML is 63.3% while my MPL is 63.8% so there's hardly a difference, but that's only for me and it could differ for others.

#17 ElLocoMarko

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:45 PM

You know how I said that my splat cat can assassinate light mechs...
Apparently there is a splash damage bug which will cause all splash damage to be removed April 2.

So I might be getting up to double damage against light mechs. You might want to discard the splat cat portion of my above advice.

#18 ObsidianSpectre

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:58 PM

The counter to light mechs is lasers and friends with lasers. If you get caught alone lights can be a pain to hit even with state rewind if they're circling around you, but if you have a friend a bit away, those same lights will be very easy to hit for them. Assuming decent aim, lights can only really stop one mech at a time from lining up good shots at them. So just don't get caught alone.

#19 qki

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:59 AM

Right now, a single SRM6 to the side will cripple a Jenner, one full hit dead center blows up a standard commando (even easier for XLE ones).

The splash damage is getting removed next patch though, to address this issue.

#20 Hayashi

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:05 PM

Counter against non-ECMed lights - streaks and LRMs. Counter against ECMed lights - pulse lasers and unguided SRM.

Edited by Hayashi, 20 March 2013 - 01:05 PM.






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