125 replies to this topic

[Kartr]

Sparks Murphey, on 01 June 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

I'm more surprised that they chose two slow and heavily armed mediums (and then the crazy fast Cicada for a third) without making a mid-speed medium in the game.

Yet, without putting a mid-speed medium BattleMech in game yet! Remember there are going to be more than 12 BattleMechs, so we have at least two more to be revealed. Plus they can add new Mechs as often as they get them built.

[Quentin Yatoki]

I imagine the Dragon will make a better brawler then people think. It's fast and has a lot of armor. As long as it has a fast enough torso twist and maneuverability, a Dragon is going to be able close the range with Assaults and then run circles around them with out them being able to twist their torsos fast enough.

I do this all the time in WoT with my mediums to heavy tanks. I have a M4A3E2, use my front armor to deflect their fire as I charge them, and then just circle them and shoot them with near impunity. I imagine the Dragon will be quite effective at this.

[Ethicus]

FaustianQ, on 01 June 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Upgrade to endo-steel, change LRM-10 to SRM-6, Change AC/5 to LBX-10, add 1.5 tons of armor and a small laser. Extremely fast brawler for 60t, great medium killer as well.

Other configurations are possible and for the most part it's a 10t heavier Centurion with the potential for more firepower. Only the stock Dragon is bad.

EDIT - As Adridos said, it's an overweight medium.

Definitely going to try that out. And when you guys say its a heavily armored medium, changes my perspective of the mech totally.

And i REALLY like that weapon load out a lot. im gunna have to check it out when i get my hands on the game

[Soviet Alex]

PS: The 3050 Grand Dragon uses an XL-engine to reach the same speed as the Commando & Raven. And it doesn't drop armour or weapons to do it. 60-ton scout, anyone?

[Ethicus]

When you think of it more of the scout players heavy scout. Then the firepower doesnt seem AS bad. though thats if hes able to stack on the extra equipment that makes the mech a good scout. id gladly take out a medium laser if i can put on a NARC/Tag or ECM etc.

[DocBach]

The Grand Dragon will be the premier raiding 'Mech in the game. Able to keep up with everything we've seen released besides the Jenner and Cicada, but packing an ER PPC? You Dracs got lucky that they included this one in the game. Teamed up with the Jenner the DCMS will have a lot of very mobile firepower available to them, with the K2 Catapult and Atlas around to provide some big guns.

[Beazle]

The Dragon was always a kinda gimpy mech.

It's at a bad weight, especially for trying to be maneuverable.

You'll notice it doesn't have JJ. Compare it with most IS stock 55 tonners, and you'll see comparable firepower, same speed, comparable armor and JJ's.

At 55 tons JJ's are a half ton each. At 60 tons, they jump to a whole ton.

The big killer though, is the Engine table. A 55 ton mech built to go the same speed as a Dragon needs a 275 series engine that weighs in at 15.5 tons. The Dragon's Engine weighs 19 tons. So, 3.5 tons of your 5 tons in total weight difference is taken up by engine. Add in the extra .5 tons per jump move of most 55 tonners (say, a Griffon for example) and your at 6 tons. Conversely, if you don't like jumps, you can take them off the 55 tonner and free up 2.5 tons for weapons and armor.

The point is, by being a "Heavy" at 60 tons that goes at medium speeds, the Dragon basically loses a ton. It sits on the first step of that steep climb that is the exponential climb in engine weights. It pays the penalties for being a Heavy, without having the tonnage to make it viable.

TLDR version. 60 ton mechs suck, once we get 55 tonners in the game, only die-hard Drac fans and idiots will be usings Dragons at base speed.

Edited by Beazle, 02 June 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Soviet Alex, on 02 June 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

PS: The 3050 Grand Dragon uses an XL-engine to reach the same speed as the Commando & Raven. And it doesn't drop armour or weapons to do it. 60-ton scout, anyone?

Pfft, what are we? Lyrans?
Then again, the Lyrans do upstage us with their 80-ton scout 'Mech (which we also produce).

Quote

Also, I was under the impression that endo-steel wasn't available as a 'Mechlab upgrade.
So upgrading a DRG-1N Dragon with an XL engine (and DHS, of course), I could get...
DRG-1N-Mod: 5/8/0, 11 tons ferro-fibrous, 13 DHS, 2PPC, 2ML, 1SRM-6, BAP, GECM, CASE, C3Slave.

It just occurred to me...
I created a mini-hammer.
A faster and tougher one at it.
Slightly less weapons, though (2SL and 2MGs).

Quote

The Dragon's Engine weighs 19 tons.

The Dragon's 300-rated engine is also a lot more common. And I mean a LOT.

Quote

Conversely, if you don't like jumps, you can take them off the 55 tonner and free up 2.5 tons for weapons and armor.

Throw in XL engines and Ferro-Fibrous, and the 60-tonner wins out on everything but jumping.

55-Tonner:
Internal Structure: Standard - 5.5 tons.
Engine: 275 XL - 8 tons.
Gyro: 3 tons.
Cockpit: 3 tons.
Armour: Ferro-Fibrous - 10.5 tons (100% coverage)
Total: 30 tons used - 25 tons remaining.
 
60-Tonner:
Internal Structure: Standard - 6 tons.
Engine: 300 XL - 9.5 tons.
Gyro: 3 tons.
Cockpit: 3 tons.
Armour: Ferro-Fibrous - 10.5 tons (93.53% coverage)
Total: 32 tons used - 28 tons remaining.

So... yeah...
If you're not going to jump, 60-tons doesn't look that bad when XL engines are involved.
Even when upping the speeds to 6/9/0 the 60-tonner wins with half a ton more, and 3 points of armour (55-tonner has 3 points unspent at 10.5 tons of ferro-fibrous).

Heck, even with a SFE the 60-tonner wins out when no-one jumps - by 1 ton to be precise.
Yeah, 60-tons seems to be the optimum for 5/8 or 6/9 XLE ground movement only 'Mechs.
Not that crazy after all, then.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 03 June 2012 - 02:15 AM.

[Slepnir]

A true warrior of the dragon knows the way of the water warrior. a grand dragon is the epitome of the way our warriors battle, hit them hard and fade before they can react. mechlab allows us to tweak it a bit but i will aways opt for a grand dragon variant. either a 1G or a 5K. granted i am willing to rip those silly LRMs off for a bit more heat disipation, armor and if possible another laser.

Edited by Slepnir, 05 June 2012 - 12:27 AM.

[Rodney28021]

Toothman, on 01 June 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

The power to weight curve of engines is what makes the dragon such a light hitter. You have to make a choice of speed and hit like a little girl or go with a smaller engine and hit harder but lumber like the other heavies. Personally I excel at lumbering so I'd probably choose another chassis.

My thoughts exactly, if i have a Dragon, will drop speed to 4 / 6 and add more heatsinks and armor, PPC, keep LRMs but increase to LRM15 or 20, remove AC/5 and add more medium lasers and ammo. Try the Dragon first as a speedy long range weak fighter, just keep running away and use your long range weapons till you run out of ammo. Then convert Dragon to Grand Dragon by dropping AC/5 and adding PPC, 1 medium laser and 2 heatsinks, then try fighting again.

Edited by Rodney28021, 04 June 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Chacatumbi]

Really, the question needs to be what the hardpoints are. B/c if they dont allow enough energy slots then you wont be able to do the grand dragon, which would make me a sad panda.

[Chacatumbi]

Beazle, on 02 June 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

The Dragon was always a kinda gimpy mech.

It's at a bad weight, especially for trying to be maneuverable.

You'll notice it doesn't have JJ. Compare it with most IS stock 55 tonners, and you'll see comparable firepower, same speed, comparable armor and JJ's.

At 55 tons JJ's are a half ton each. At 60 tons, they jump to a whole ton.

The big killer though, is the Engine table. A 55 ton mech built to go the same speed as a Dragon needs a 275 series engine that weighs in at 15.5 tons. The Dragon's Engine weighs 19 tons. So, 3.5 tons of your 5 tons in total weight difference is taken up by engine. Add in the extra .5 tons per jump move of most 55 tonners (say, a Griffon for example) and your at 6 tons. Conversely, if you don't like jumps, you can take them off the 55 tonner and free up 2.5 tons for weapons and armor.

The point is, by being a "Heavy" at 60 tons that goes at medium speeds, the Dragon basically loses a ton. It sits on the first step of that steep climb that is the exponential climb in engine weights. It pays the penalties for being a Heavy, without having the tonnage to make it viable.

TLDR version. 60 ton mechs suck, once we get 55 tonners in the game, only die-hard Drac fans and idiots will be usings Dragons at base speed.

wow its hard to argue with that one. Well played, sir.

[Major Bill Curtis]

Beazle, on 02 June 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

The Dragon was always a kinda gimpy mech.

It's at a bad weight, especially for trying to be maneuverable.

You'll notice it doesn't have JJ. Compare it with most IS stock 55 tonners, and you'll see comparable firepower, same speed, comparable armor and JJ's.

At 55 tons JJ's are a half ton each. At 60 tons, they jump to a whole ton.

The big killer though, is the Engine table. A 55 ton mech built to go the same speed as a Dragon needs a 275 series engine that weighs in at 15.5 tons. The Dragon's Engine weighs 19 tons. So, 3.5 tons of your 5 tons in total weight difference is taken up by engine. Add in the extra .5 tons per jump move of most 55 tonners (say, a Griffon for example) and your at 6 tons. Conversely, if you don't like jumps, you can take them off the 55 tonner and free up 2.5 tons for weapons and armor. Put the jets on the 60 tonner and you've probably screwed yourself.

The point is, by being a "Heavy" at 60 tons that goes at medium speeds, the Dragon basically loses a ton. It sits on the first step of that steep climb that is the exponential climb in engine weights. It pays the penalties for being a Heavy, without having the tonnage to make it viable.

TLDR version. 60 ton mechs suck, once we get 55 tonners in the game, only die-hard Drac fans and idiots will be usings Dragons at base speed.

Actually, no.

Leave the jump jets out at 97 kph, go Endo-steel and XL engine (y'know, like a Grand Dragon) on a 55 and a 60 ton chassis, and add full armor: guess what? (since you're guessing), 21 tons of equipment weight for each, but the 60 tonner has 1 more ton of armor, so . . . looks like your math is a bit off. Throw the jump jets on the 55 tonner (its only advantage) and you're dropping 3 tons out of the equipment bay as well as giving up the 1 ton of armor.

You seem to have, rather conveniently, assumed that the XL engine doesn't exist (and that jump jets are necessary - if you want them, definitely go 55 tons). 60 tons is not a bad weight by any means, if you are willing to go with the XL engine (and the above assumes this for both 55 and 60 tons. At 97 kph, you probably aren't a brawler anyway, and if you want to do that kind of speed even at 55t, a standard engine will kill you (take 12 tons off your armor or out of your equipment budget).

Just to add a bit more . . .

At 5/8/5 (so, sure, go jump jets) with Endo-Steel and an XL engine, the 60 tonner has the same combined armor and weapons potential (35.5 tons) as the 55. That's with the jump jets, where the 55 has a huge advantage, so I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes the 60 "suck" and the 55 terrific. But then, since there are 75 ton 'mechs running around at 5/8/5 with a lot more armor than that 55 (and a lot more weapons too), this might not be the greatest speed ever for the thing.

Edited by Major Bill Curtis, 04 June 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Erm... I did that math a few posts up, without endo, actually.

Base-bones:
55 tons, all standard, 5/8/0: 28 tons for equipment/armour.
60 tons, all standard, 5/8/0: 29 tons for equipment/armour.
65 tons, all standard, 5/8/0: 28 tons for equipment/armour.
55 tons, all standard, 6/9/0: 18 tons.
60 tons, all standard, 6/9/0: 14 tons (only one of two times it loses against 55 tons).
65 tons, all standard, 6/9/0: 5.5 tons (no-one ever uses).
55 tons, XLE, 5/8/0: 35.5 tons.
60 tons, XLE, 5/8/0: 38.5 tons.
65 tons, XLE, 5/8/0: 39.5 tons (one of two times its better)
55 tons, XLE, 6/9/0: 30 tons.
60 tons, XLE, 6/9/0: 30.5 tons.
65 tons, XLE, 6/9/0: 28.5 tons.
55 tons, endo, 5/8/0: 30.5 tons.
60 tons, endo, 5/8/0: 32 tons.
65 tons, endo, 5/8/0: 31 tons.
55 tons, endo, 6/9/0: 20.5 tons.
60 tons, endo, 6/9/0: 17 tons (the other time it loses).
65 tons, endo, 6/9/0: 8.5 tons.
55 tons, both, 5/8/0: 38 tons.
60 tons, both, 5/8/0: 41.5 tons.
65 tons, both, 5/8/0: 42.5 tons (the other time it's better).
55 tons, both, 6/9/0: 32.5 tons.
60 tons, both, 6/9/0: 33.5 tons.
65 tons, both, 6/9/0: 31.5 tons.

Quote

But then, since there are 75 ton 'mechs running around at 5/8/5 with a lot more armor than that 55 (and a lot more weapons too), this might not be the greatest speed ever for the thing.

Eh, not really.
a 5/8/0 75-tonner with endo&XLE has only 4 tons more to spend than a 60-tonner with same, which is reduced to 3 ton difference at 5/8/5. Slight advantage, but not much. Not much change between 70 tons and 75 tons either (only 7 points of internal structure).
Also, 4-ton difference between 55-tonner 5/8/5 and 75-tonner 5/8/5.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 04 June 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[Soviet Alex]

Beazle's assuming 1 critical factor: the availabilty in-game of Griffins, Shadowhawks & Wolverines. All 55 tons, all Unseen. Without them, the Inner Sphere 55-ton options don't look so good against a Dragon (Grand or otherwise). Dervish, Hoplite, Kintaro. We might see the Dervish this side of Christmas, but I wouldn't hold out much hope for the others. And the Derv is the only one with jump jets.

[AceTimberwolf]

Playing around with the dragon today I agree. It felt weak compared to the rest of the Mechs that were on the field. And the Ultra AC5 plus med Laser just didn't pack the punch I would hope for

And it seemed too paper-e

[Deathz Jester]

Mechlab = problem solved......

[AceTimberwolf]

Iron Harlequin, on 05 June 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Mechlab = problem solved......

Nah it didn't help. I even lowered the armour so I can fit alittle bit more but still They gotta fix the hit box for the Dragon or at least give it a better overall competitive balance

[OberSchutze]

I plan to use this.


Grasshopper GHR-5N

Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Introductory
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/X-E-D
Production Year: 3042
Cost: 6,160,573 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,511

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 280 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 PPC
5 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 107 points 7.00
Engine: Fusion Engine 280 16.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL 4.00
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 22 12.00
Heat Sink Locations: 2 CT, 5 LT, 2 RT, 1 LA, 1 RA
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 208 13.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 30
Center Torso (rear) 13
L/R Torso 15 20
L/R Torso (rear) 10
L/R Arm 11 22
L/R Leg 15 26

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser HD 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
PPC RT 10 3 7.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 24

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 15
4j 3 4 1 0 3 0 Structure: 6
Special Abilities: ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

[Soviet Alex]

@Oberschutze: presumably you'll be Mech-Labbing a Cataphract to make it. It has almost the right hardpoints, the right speed & tonnage.

When I first got MW3 working again, I tried the Dragon against a stock Champion. The Dragon didn't do brilliantly, but the Grand Dragon won every time. Also, the doubled(?) armour values shown in the Mech Lab screenshots give the Dragon chassis more of an advantage over mediums.