85 replies to this topic

[Stone Profit]

Roadbeer, on 26 March 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Office space, Internet access (not your standard DSL Rates) Server hardware, work stations, power bill, waste disposal, water, payroll, payroll taxes, employee health insurance, Does Canada have provincial taxes like we have state taxes?, Income taxes, ping pong table, coffee filters, asset insurance, legal services...

want to know more?

I bet with 50 employees, $5 million (adjusted to Canadian rates) is barely one year of operating costs.

As a support to your argument, I read this most interesting interview with Chris Roberts, the man who brought us Wing Commander and its ilk, as he works on a new game, Star Citizen. THis paragraph speaks of the costs of game development.
In case you wish to read the whole interview: http://www.gameinfor...ar-citizen.aspx

"One of the questions I see frequently posed by readers in relation to Kickstarter game pitches is the chasm between the experience the game promises versus the requested amount of funding. For instance, you have raised $7.5 million, and your Kickstarter page claims Star Citizen is going to be a high-end game. The typical budgets for games in that category are much larger. It's rumored that Grand Theft Auto V is going to cost Rockstar over $100 million. How is it a realistic expectation that you can match that level of production value with a fraction of the money?
Star Citizen is not being made with $100 million. It will be about $20 million. One of the big differences between Star Citizen and a lot of the other crowd-funded games is that we're really building something that is competing with triple-A publisher titles. I can build it cheaper than I could if I was in house at EA or Activision just because I have [less] overhead. I'm like the CEO and the project leader. I don't have all these other sales offices around the world. You know, that makes a big difference. When Digital Anvil was bought by Microsoft, as a developer you always sort of figured out what your per-person cost per year is. Back then in 2000 or 2001, it was $110,000 per year. That's not what everyone was getting - people were getting $60,000 or $70,000, but once you added in rent and all those kind of things, health benefits, it was that. The moment we were bought by Microsoft, everyone was $200,000 a year. It was the same people, and they didn't get pay raises, but you had to get your allocation of the overhead from corporate. So Freelancer overnight at that point basically doubled the budget."

[PANZERBUNNY]

Lil Cthulhu, on 26 March 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

And here we go with the half brains making excuses for poor choices on the side of the development team.

Tell me again how five million dollars isn't a lot of money?

Stop being goonish. It's not like they kept all that money for MWO. They had to pay off some suits.

[Tennex]

Lil Cthulhu, on 26 March 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Sorry, seems PGI doesn't listen when I type things out like a rational human being, had to try something different.

normally i'd agree with you. but it seems like most of the money is going owards the art and the models. which are coming out beautifuly.

hopefully onlly a small portion of the 5 million is funding the developers who's makeing the bad decisions..

Edited by Tennex, 26 March 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[Lil Cthulhu]

Tennex, on 26 March 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

normally i'd agree with you. but it seems like most of the money is going owards the art and the models. which are coming out beautifuly.

hopefully onlly a small portion of the 5 million is funding the developers who's makeing thesebad decisions..

Only it should have gone towards fixing the multiple persistent bugs.

PANZERBUNNY, on 26 March 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Stop being goonish. It's not like they kept all that money for MWO. They had to pay off some suits.

Take money specifically invested in MWO and then turn around and spend it on something else, sounds to me like a misappropriation of funds.

[DrSecretStache]

Precarious, on 26 March 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

the minimum wage is 48% of 15 dollars an hour. so, 15 is more than twice minimum wage. is there something wrong with you? here, let's try some analogies.

actually, screw that. you're just insane.

You're a bean counter. You're out in the fields, counting beans. I'm the master in the plantation house, running the business.

Go count some more beans, slave. You clearly live in California and worship turning money into more money as though it's somehow a worthwhile pursuit. Go into the woods and build a house out of money. Go wipe your *** with it. Eat money.

Your money represents the hard work and effort of other people who are not you.You are a parasite. Deal with it.

Software engineers don't run on minimum wage.

http://www.payscale....2c_Games/Salary

Just a random internet example. 30k is dirt cheap. 60-70k is much closer to what they likely are making.

Not that it really matters or pertains to this argument.

[Stone Profit]

Lil Cthulhu, on 26 March 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

Only it should have gone towards fixing the multiple persistent bugs.



Take money specifically invested in MWO and then turn around and spend it on something else, sounds to me like a misappropriation of funds.

I havent had any bugs except no minimap in the last two patches, and those three occasions where I had that bug have been in the last week, and I play probably 50 or so matches a week.

[MrPenguin]

Lil Cthulhu, on 26 March 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

Throwing money at coders won't make them fix bugs any faster.
Unless money brings up there LUK stats.

Zoughtbaj, on 26 March 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

Software engineers don't run on minimum wage.

http://www.payscale....2c_Games/Salary

Just a random internet example. 30k is dirt cheap. 60-70k is much closer to what they likely are making.

Not that it really matters or pertains to this argument.

This is pretty much spot on.

[Lil Cthulhu]

Stone Profit, on 26 March 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

I havent had any bugs except no minimap in the last two patches, and those three occasions where I had that bug have been in the last week, and I play probably 50 or so matches a week.

Well, lets see. I crash to desktop at lest every third game, still can't play with textures in either of the Frozen City maps, get stuck on non-existent geometry, completely lag out or the shells from my autocannons just fly off in random directions regardless of where I aim.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

PANZERBUNNY, on 26 March 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Stop being goonish. It's not like they kept all that money for MWO. They had to pay off some suits.

and give some to MWT

[Stone Profit]

MrPenguin, on 26 March 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Throwing money at coders won't make them fix bugs any faster.
Unless money brings up there LUK stats.


This is pretty much spot on.

Yes, if they only pay their coders 30k (which is barely above minimum wage in America, although I dont know about Canadia...) than they would deserve to have crappy coders. Which I dont think they do, but these forum monkeys dont seem to understand you get what you pay for...

[Lil Cthulhu]

MrPenguin, on 26 March 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Throwing money at coders won't make them fix bugs any faster.
Unless money brings up there LUK stats.


This is pretty much spot on.

I never said throw money at them to get them to fix it faster, they had enough money thrown at them to where at this stage in development they should not have any of these persistent bugs.

[Stone Profit]

Lil Cthulhu, on 26 March 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Well, lets see. I crash to desktop at lest every third game, still can't play with textures in either of the Frozen City maps, get stuck on non-existent geometry, completely lag out or the shells from my autocannons just fly off in random directions regardless of where I aim.

Perhaps it's YOUR COMPUTER, and not MWO. I haven't had a crash since mid February. Have you tried a fresh install?

Edited by Stone Profit, 26 March 2013 - 08:32 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Canadia? It that like Northern US/Southern Canada where the borders are kinda fuzzy?

[Lil Cthulhu]

Stone Profit, on 26 March 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Yes, if they only pay their coders 30k (which is barely above minimum wage in America, although I dont know about Canadia...) than they would deserve to have crappy coders. Which I dont think they do, but these forum monkeys dont seem to understand you get what you pay for...

Barley above minimum? It's about double what minimum is.

If you don't live in the US, don't try and tell me what minimum wage is.

[Stone Profit]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 26 March 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Canadia? It that like Northern US/Southern Canada where the borders are kinda fuzzy?

Nah I just like ******* of Canadians. Canadians come from Canadia lawls

[MrPenguin]

Stone Profit, on 26 March 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Yes, if they only pay their coders 30k (which is barely above minimum wage in America, although I dont know about Canadia...) than they would deserve to have crappy coders. Which I dont think they do, but these forum monkeys dont seem to understand you get what you pay for...

Naw, 60-70k for software engineers is essentially the norm in Canada so far.
If you're a software engineer and you're on a 30k salary. Something's wrong.

As for getting what you paid for? It doesn't quite work like that. Experience is worth more then anything. If someone who's a better coder then you only has 2 years experience but you have 10, you have a much higher chance of getting the job.

[Lil Cthulhu]

Stone Profit, on 26 March 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Perhaps it's YOUR COMPUTER, and not MWO. I haven't had a crash since mid February. Have you tried a fresh install?

It is not my computer and it is not the install.

I can run this game all maxed out at 1920X1080 and still get over 100fps.

Maybe it's just a ****** coding job.

[Roadbeer]

Lil Cthulhu, on 26 March 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

It has to do with him being totally out of touch with what the average working class person makes.

What the average working person makes?

Or what the average working person can live on with out government assistance?

In addition to the numerous costs I associated with running a business, just being an employee and where you are required to live to have that job... $15/hour may not be bad in the Midwest or the South,, but California, New York or in PGI's area of British Columbia, the cost of living is so high, $30k doesn't go far... like I said, thats $600/week before taxes, etc (Taxes are HIGH in Canada, California, New York)... so that's around $1800/month average after taxes.. apartment rates in Vancouver are around $1300/month so that leaves you $500 for utilities, food, clothing, transportation...

http://www.rentboard...aspx?locid=1040

Must be nice to still be in school where you can have these lofty ideals about the evils of Capitalism, but in the real world... good luck there Sparky

Edited by Roadbeer, 26 March 2013 - 08:40 PM.

[Lil Cthulhu]

Roadbeer, on 26 March 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

What the average working person makes?

Or what the average working person can live on with out government assistance?

In addition to the numerous costs I associated with running a business, just being an employee and where you are required to live to have that job... $15/hour may not be bad in the Midwest or the South,, but California, New York or in PGI's area of British Columbia, the cost of living is so high, $30k doesn't go far... like I said, thats $600/week before taxes, etc (Taxes are HIGH in Canada, California, New York)... so that's around $1800/month average after taxes.. apartment rates in Vancouver are around $1300/month so that leaves you $1500 for utilities, food, clothing, transportation...

Must be nice to still be in school where you can have these lofty ideals about the evils of Capitalism, but in the real world... good luck there Sparky

Must be nice to have mommy and daddy paying all the bills so you can come on the internet and make unsubstantiated claims.

See, I can make things up, too.

[Stone Profit]

Lil Cthulhu, on 26 March 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Barley above minimum? It's about double what minimum is.

If you don't live in the US, don't try and tell me what minimum wage is.

I DO live in the US. I have MANY friends who make minimum wage. In San Francisco, minimum wage is 11.00 an hr. In Washington state its nearly 10. Here in Texas it is 8.50. also, 30k a year barely supports a single individual to any degree, and certainly not with any comforts such as health insurance or a home made in the last 20 years.