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Why no solid medium mechs?


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#1 I_AM_ZUUL

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:24 PM

I came on last night after running a A Time of War RPG/TableTop campaign, I have tried not getting to excited about the new MW game . But after getting another email last night, i figured I would come check it out. I was very disappointed to find what mediums they are showing. A hunchback & centurion are a poor mans heavy but there is not any one of the big 3. Griffin, Wolverine, Shadow Hawk are real mediums but we are not even getting one. Two 4/6/0 mechs is just lame, those are mechs no one who likes playing a medium can be excited about. At least the Clans are honest about their Hunchback IIC(which is substantially better) in the 3067 TRO "mechwarriors who drive this are expecting to go out in a blaze of glory because very few survive the engagement"

Please someone correct me and tell me there is going to be true mediums by the time the game launches. So I will have be proved totally wrong in refusing to get excited!!!!!!!!!!

Nathan



Edit-- As someone pointed out, I forgot to mention the third medium the Cicada. So we have two lame wannabe heavys (yes, the Centurion is better then the Hunchback but still it is still the equivalent of a comparison between a Fiat vs a Volga) & the wannabe Light.

Not one of these is a "medium" in anything but tonnage. They have none of the overall usefulness expected for the variety of missions a medium lance is expected to be able to carry out. That is the whole & only point I am trying to make, not a comparison of what each individual mech is capable of in one specific area of operations. But within the Entire context of what missions you are likely to need to complete, these three are not up to the task.

2nd Edit-- I do not know what the in-game money system will be, so I will be using the TT/RPG rule system in this example. A lot of people have been commenting on the MechLab, and how "all" you need to do is do an engine swap for better speed. Here is the breakdown of that, a 250 engine costs 1,666,667 C-Bills, a Hunchback costs 3,467,875 C-Bills while a Centurion costs 3,491,500. So using the argument that one can "just" reconfigure the engine is CRAP. It costs half the price of the whole mech, while also failing to factor in the difficulty of getting it done. It takes a Mech Factory to do this level of modification, there is less the 20 factory worlds per realm. Or how do you get transportation there? Very few worlds are located anywhere near a border, since all of them were destroyed during the Succession Wars. Only the factory worlds deep in the realms survived the past 200 years of conflicts.

Edited by zuul88, 03 June 2012 - 04:47 PM.


#2 Farmer

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:28 PM

Err...The Centurion may not be the fastest, but it is one of the classics. Yen Lo Wang held the title on Solaris under three pilots. I think that's a strong enough canon argument to include it as one of the most iconic mediums to ever take the field.

#3 Joe Mallad

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:31 PM

there are plenty of great mediums that will probably come along as in being semi fast and have a good weapons mix is what Im sure youre getting at right? Well,,, the 3 you mention, the Griffen, Wolverine and Shadow Hawk are all UNSEEN mech and while Im sure we can see any of them at any time... I think the reason we havent seen any of these mech yet is because they want it to be a big revile at some point to excite people.

#4 trycksh0t

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:34 PM

Uh....huh? The Hunchback and Centurion aren't "true mediums"? Medium 'Mechs, as a weight class, are supposed to be able to fill any role that may be needed, and to that effect some are specialized and others are general purpose. The Hunchback is a specialized brawler, one of the best actually. The Centurion is a solid all-around trooper, pretty much the same purpose as the Wolverine. The Griffin is a specialized fire-support 'Mech, and the Shadow Hawk is designed as an all-rounder. All of these 'Mechs epitomize what the Medium class is all about, so why are the Hunchback and Centurion somehow worse than the other three?

#5 Furniture

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:34 PM

Those are all Unseen mechs... why even ask for them? Unless you want them to be removed soon after because of a lawsuit.

Besides, pre-clan invasion, 4/6 mediums were the vast majority of Inner Sphere medium designs (not counting those unseens you mentioned). What we need is something like a Vindicator, where you may be 4/6, but at least you get jumpjets to make it more mobile.

#6 Tterrag

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:36 PM

I don't wanna be that guy but yeah clan tech medium are better

#7 Kenyon Burguess

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:37 PM

thats kinda funny. if the difference to you between a good medium and a bad medium is 5 tons then you might as well take the poor mans assault, the dragon lol

#8 PewPew2

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:43 PM

View Postzuul88, on 02 June 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

I came on last night after running a A Time of War RPG/TableTop campaign, I have tried not getting to excited about the new MW game . But after getting another email last night, i figured I would come check it out. I was very disappointed to find what mediums they are showing. A hunchback & centurion are a poor mans heavy but there is not any one of the big 3. Griffin, Wolverine, Shadow Hawk are real mediums but we are not even getting one. Two 4/6/0 mechs is just lame, those are mechs no one who likes playing a medium can be excited about. At least the Clans are honest about their Hunchback IIC(which is substantially better) in the 3067 TRO "mechwarriors who drive this are expecting to go out in a blaze of glory because very few survive the engagement"

Please someone correct me and tell me there is going to be true mediums by the time the game launches. So I will have be proved totally wrong in refusing to get excited!!!!!!!!!!

Nathan

Apparently hes in the dark about the unseen.

#9 Toothman

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:48 PM

View Postzuul88, on 02 June 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

I came on last night after running a A Time of War RPG/TableTop campaign, I have tried not getting to excited about the new MW game . But after getting another email last night, i figured I would come check it out. I was very disappointed to find what mediums they are showing. A hunchback & centurion are a poor mans heavy but there is not any one of the big 3. Griffin, Wolverine, Shadow Hawk are real mediums but we are not even getting one. Two 4/6/0 mechs is just lame, those are mechs no one who likes playing a medium can be excited about. At least the Clans are honest about their Hunchback IIC(which is substantially better) in the 3067 TRO "mechwarriors who drive this are expecting to go out in a blaze of glory because very few survive the engagement"

Please someone correct me and tell me there is going to be true mediums by the time the game launches. So I will have be proved totally wrong in refusing to get excited!!!!!!!!!!

Nathan

How could you play that much and yet be so clueless as to not know about the unseen? And just because you like 3 mediums the rest of the world is supposed to think they are the only "true" mediums? Wow! Ego much?

#10 I_AM_ZUUL

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:49 PM

View PostFarmer, on 02 June 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Err...The Centurion may not be the fastest, but it is one of the classics. Yen Lo Wang held the title on Solaris under three pilots. I think that's a strong enough canon argument to include it as one of the most iconic mediums to ever take the field.


I will grant my own bias as a True tabletop player who gets irritated by the writer fiat against EVERY mech that fights Yen-Lo-Wang, which involves the !!!!!!WORST!!!!!!! mech fight ever in the fiction. (Dark Age-1st time Battletech writer has Yen-Lo-Wang destroys a Hellstar without a even using a tacky but legitimate headshot. I would place money on that fight Everytime, no 50tonner can stand up to 4 Clan ER PPCs firing every turn without generating a single HEAT, let alone either of the two variants which both carry Targeting Computers) But my main point still stands that the Centurion is a poor mans Heavy not a true medium mech. They have been making Griffins, Wolverines, and Shadow Hawks for +400 years for a reason. That reason is, that it is hard to build a mech that does the job it is designed to do better. So I do hope they release at least one True medium mech to fill that role, but we will probably get a Hatchetman instead.

#11 Joe Mallad

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:53 PM

View PostFurniture, on 02 June 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Those are all Unseen mechs... why even ask for them? Unless you want them to be removed soon after because of a lawsuit.

Besides, pre-clan invasion, 4/6 mediums were the vast majority of Inner Sphere medium designs (not counting those unseens you mentioned). What we need is something like a Vindicator, where you may be 4/6, but at least you get jumpjets to make it more mobile.
yes they are UNSEENS but they CAN be used as long as the true first designs are not used. Thats why they were all redesigned and now can be used.

#12 Kanatta Jing

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:53 PM

No Hatchetman in the first batch. They're putting melee on the back burner

#13 PewPew2

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:53 PM

Actually the centurion gets a speed boost to 6/9 with recovered tech.

#14 Farmer

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:55 PM

As has been stated, the Medium range is a jack-of-all-trades range. Some will be the poor man's heavy. Some will be scout hunter/killers. Some are just bodies to be chewed up. Fielding a Hunchie with some Urbies was always effective in TT in dense, urban environments. Since you claim to be a "true" tabletop player, you should understand role-specific builds.

The three you listed are unseen/reseen-PP 'mechs, so for many, many players they aren't iconic. For some players, they weren't even in the game for a large percentage of their lives.

#15 Major Bill Curtis

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:56 PM

I'll just point out that the Cicada is also a medium.

I also notice that the 3 mediums you chose as representative each were 55 tons, so I don't actually know what you mean by "real medium." I get that the 3 'mechs you mentioned are personal favorites, but I hardly think it's damning that they're not in yet.

You do know that the MechLab will allow you to drop a new engine into these machines, yes?

#16 Orion Pirate

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:56 PM

I say give me a Wolf Trap! That is my Favorite Medium! :(

(Is this a True medium, the Wolf Trap?)

#17 PewPew2

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:59 PM

According to zuul88 probably not lol

#18 Gauge

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 08:00 PM

It is kinda weird that of the mediums, there're two slow, heavy hitters, and one super crazy fast. Mediums conjure up the balanced mech in my mind, flexible because they have good speed, good firepower, good protection. Hopefully we'll get at leats one more medium that's right up that alley before launch.

#19 Joe Mallad

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 08:00 PM

View PostOrion Pirate, on 02 June 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

I say give me a Wolf Trap! That is my Favorite Medium! :(

(Is this a True medium, the Wolf Trap?)
and a really great medium at that.

#20 Kanatta Jing

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 08:02 PM

View PostOrion Pirate, on 02 June 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

I say give me a Wolf Trap! That is my Favorite Medium! :(

(Is this a True medium, the Wolf Trap?)


The Wolf Trap is just a Centurion CN9-D without the Artemis IV and a ton less LRM ammo.





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