133 replies to this topic

[Ian]

Quote

If you had to limit a world to the production of a single mech chasey, the Hunchback is perhaps the best choice you could make in the middle weight chasseys because of all of the established usefull variants.

It is also perhaps not.

[Mavek]

whenever my buddies and I get together for a 3025-3050 TT game, someone automatically pulls the Hunchback mini out of the box and puts in on the map for me before i have to ask. someone else almost always takes a centurian. these are guys that have played this game since the mid-80s. we use them because they are often the linchpin of a well rounded lance. they work because they offer the firepower of a heavy, while leaving some mass on the table that can be used to round out the rest of the lance.

the 5/8/5 mechs you like are very good in certain roles as well, and I often take a wolverine for brawling or a griffin for fire support. i will like to see all three of them in the game some time soon.

but I am certainly not disappointed that the first ones we get happen to also be one of my favorites of all time (Hunchback), and one of the most iconic (Centurian).

i do have an issue with the fact that none of the mediums will have jump jet hard points that we can make use of in the mechlab...

[Johnny Reb]

Personally, im gonna role with a cicada as my scout mech just hope I can get the [color=#000000]CDA-3C, love me some ppc action on a fast mech![/color]

[Thomas Hogarth]

The 4/6 medium is the classic "pocket heavy". The 5/8/x medium is the classic trooper. We currently do not have a trooper.

[Hardac]

Thomas Hogarth, on 03 June 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

The 4/6 medium is the classic "pocket heavy". The 5/8/x medium is the classic trooper. We currently do not have a trooper.

I thought the Centurion is a trooper mech.

[Veggies]

The Cicada is a piece of junk.

Where are the TRUE mediums; Wolverine, Shadow Hawk, Griffin, Phoenix Hawk.

The ones I've grown up with. Hell even the Vulcan, Trebuchet and Blackjack or Vindicator would be good to see.

Centurion and Hunchback, yeah great...but Cicada? Oh please >_<

[Sigmund Sandoval]

I think we need to worry less about variety of 'mechs that are available and bemoaning the "unseen". (Which have almost all had a redesign thanks to Ironwind Metals. Here is the new Warhammer.) It really doesn't matter at this stage. I am sure that there will be a point where there will be so many mech options that it will be hard to decide what to have on hand. I would very much like to see some medium jumpers out there "the 5/8/5" crew. But I am sure that will come in due time. The mountain is slow, but the earth is patient.

[Owl Cutter]

Aesthetically, I find the classic 55-ton trio (Griffin, Shadow Hawk and later Wolverine) rather ugly. My personal aesthetic standard for "too humanoid" is far below where a lot of the classic Unseen 'mechs are, so they all look alike to me with their bland ...alikeness. I mean, I can recognise them by distinctive features, most especially the Wolverine's unique ammo box and pile of dangerous-looking stuff where a face should be, but they all have similar overall body shape that just strikes me as unimaginative. Contrast with how the Hunchback's got a really stout build that combines with the shoulder cannon to give an impression of a porter carrying a barrel of beer or something, and contrasts so nicely with the relatively delicate build of the Centurion that I keep needing to remind myself that the Centurion is not designed as a companion to the Hunchback, but rather to the Trebuchet.

Speaking of the Trebuchet, it might be what I'd most want to represent the other classic mediumweight trio: the Trebuchet, Dervish, and Whitworth. Part of it is, admittedly, because of the Centurion. Mostly, though, it's because I already know there to be canonical Trebuchet variants with jump jets, PPC, and autocannon. Also, IIRC, the nice Whitworth is fluffed as being pretty rare anyway...

I would be happy to see the Crab or Starslayer be one of the first mediumweights implemented, especially since Alex Iglesias has shown us that he can make the Crab look hella sweet, but objectively I think the Trebuchet would be the best choice for mechanical and immersion purposes...

[Thomas Hogarth]

Hardac, on 03 June 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

I thought the Centurion is a trooper mech.

A trooper 'Mech is defined by a varied warload with decent armor and enough movement to frustrate heavier assets. 4/6/4 is considered by some to be the bare minimum of Trooper classification, while others consider 5/8 to be the bare minimum. I fall into the latter category; There are plenty of heavies that can match 4/6/4, but only a handful that can match 5/8 (or even better, 5/8/x).

The Centurion only has a firm hold on one of the requirements - varied warload.

Now, definitions vary. Between the group I play with in person, the groups I've played with in person in the past, and the web groups I'm familiar with, the definition outlined above seems to be the most common. But there are some that define a "trooper" as simply being slower than 6/9 and being well-armed. Well, if that's the case, what's the difference between a Centurion and an Orion? Both are well armed for their weight. Both are slower than 6/9. Why can't they both fill the same role? There's no reason they cannot. Ergo, my personal classification of "pocket heavy", which indicates a 4/6 medium, thus forcing the Trooper moniker onto the 5/8/x mediums.

[LackofCertainty]

In response to Zuul88:

If this thread title was changed from "Why are there no solid medium mechs?" to "Why are there no standard medium mechs?" then I'd agree with you. I would love to see some "average" medium mechs added. However, every post you've made tearing down the hunchback makes me want to argue with you.

zuul88, on 02 June 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

... It has a single area it excels in, static urban defense. If you are reduced to a Static Urban Defense, you have already lost the war & only massive reinforcements can save you.

If I am a mercenary, then I don't give a damn about winning or losing the war. I only care about surviving long enough to collect my paycheck. Thus, if you give me a mission to protect a city, I'm likely to go in with a hunchback. (or an urban mech if I've already spent all my c-bills on booze)

Also, I think you're underselling the hunchback's capabilities outside the city. It suffers from mobility issues, yes, but a hunchback in hilly terrain is still a scary beast. Sure, you can stay away from the hunchback, but if the hunchback sticks with his team sooner or later he's going to bring his AC20 to bear on someone from your team. MWO isn't about 1v1 duels on open plains.

The one mode in the game at launch is going to be a team vs. team deathmatch (with base captures as a 2nd objective) This gives the hunchback 2 solid roles:
1: Base defender
to discourage ninja captures from enemy mediums/lights
2: Bruiser
to roll with his teammates and supply heavy close range fire support. (if the entire enemy team never gets into range of the hunchback then the hunchback has already done it's job, because that means one medium mech discouraged the entire enemy team from ever using any of their close range weapons )

zuul88, on 02 June 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

... When I want to go slow & have big guns, I just happen to believe in doing it right... in an Assault. Otherwise I want a nice balance of speed/armor/firepower.

I feel like you forgot to check the TT prices of assaults before you made this post. You complained about the cost of refitting, but you don't address the big advantage hunchbacks have; Price! The hunchback clocks in at a mere 3.5m c-bills. I can buy almost 3 hunchbacks for the price of an Atlas, and get basically the same close range firepower. (granted, I'd lose some durability and all around firepower, but you can't have everything)

If you're so strapped for cash that you can't afford 2m in refitting on top of the 3.5m cost of the hunchback, how the heck are you affording an assault? Price shouldn't be the only deciding factor in balance, of course, but I expect that the hunchback will get advantages over heavier mechs in the form of standard fps stuff. While it has the same top speed, I fully expect the hunchback to accelerate faster and have a tighter turning radius than an assault. It'd also make sense for it to have faster convergence.


To sum up:
Yes, I want more "normal" mediums, and also the hunchback is a fine mech.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

LackofCertainty, on 04 June 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

In response to Zuul88:

If this thread title was changed from "Why are there no solid medium mechs?" to "Why are there no standard medium mechs?" then I'd agree with you. I would love to see some "average" medium mechs added. However, every post you've made tearing down the hunchback makes me want to argue with you.




If I am a mercenary, then I don't give a damn about winning or losing the war. I only care about surviving long enough to collect my paycheck. Thus, if you give me a mission to protect a city, I'm likely to go in with a hunchback. (or an urban mech if I've already spent all my c-bills on booze)

Also, I think you're underselling the hunchback's capabilities outside the city. It suffers from mobility issues, yes, but a hunchback in hilly terrain is still a scary beast. Sure, you can stay away from the hunchback, but if the hunchback sticks with his team sooner or later he's going to bring his AC20 to bear on someone from your team. MWO isn't about 1v1 duels on open plains.

The one mode in the game at launch is going to be a team vs. team deathmatch (with base captures as a 2nd objective) This gives the hunchback 2 solid roles:
1: Base defender
to discourage ninja captures from enemy mediums/lights
2: Bruiser
to roll with his teammates and supply heavy close range fire support. (if the entire enemy team never gets into range of the hunchback then the hunchback has already done it's job, because that means one medium mech discouraged the entire enemy team from ever using any of their close range weapons )




I feel like you forgot to check the TT prices of assaults before you made this post. You complained about the cost of refitting, but you don't address the big advantage hunchbacks have; Price! The hunchback clocks in at a mere 3.5m c-bills. I can buy almost 3 hunchbacks for the price of an Atlas, and get basically the same close range firepower. (granted, I'd lose some durability and all around firepower, but you can't have everything)

If you're so strapped for cash that you can't afford 2m in refitting on top of the 3.5m cost of the hunchback, how the heck are you affording an assault? Price shouldn't be the only deciding factor in balance, of course, but I expect that the hunchback will get advantages over heavier mechs in the form of standard fps stuff. While it has the same top speed, I fully expect the hunchback to accelerate faster and have a tighter turning radius than an assault. It'd also make sense for it to have faster convergence.


To sum up:
Yes, I want more "normal" mediums, and also the hunchback is a fine mech.

I will address your points. So to fill the "Bruiser" role you will need to stay with the Lance to provide that support meaning the rest of the lance is now horrifically bogged down as well. Try navigating woods/hills/water/streets, then tell me how that quantifies as an effective use of a Medium Lance. Its not. Now in a fire support/missile boat Lance that is an effective use. So either you get left behind, minimize the effective use of an entire Lance or you play guard dog. Three very non-attractive options to me but maybe some people are scared.

"Defender" I have already said is the best area of use. Though only static, it falls apart in a mobile defense role. Based mainly on its lack of mobility.

The assault comment was me being facetious, I rarely use them. Though I really like a 5/8/x heavy. It is fun chasing down Mediums & keeping Lights in range longer when they run. But was not a strict reference to the cost. The original point was why two wannabe Heavys but no solid/trooper/standard Mediums? The 3 people who think AC-20s are the "BEST" cause it says 20 flipped out on me for attacking the Hunchback. Either of the two are great but both is redundant. They both fill the same role, but since that role is not usually filled by a Medium mech or Lance, while being given a wanna Light as a third option. It was just very disappointing to see, much like the Green Lantern.

Mercs do whatever job the company hires them for & have 1 mech to do all the jobs with. While garrison duty is one of those jobs, it is one that the Great Houses rarely hire mercs for. Unless your a Highlander/McCarron/Erdini Light who have centuries long employment records with a Great House to the point where they are almost House troops anyways. If we all get access to 8 personal mechs, I will be disgusted.

Nathan

Edited by zuul88, 04 June 2012 - 01:56 AM.

[Sylow]

In this thread, i again, as every time this topic comes up, some people just spit out "Mechlab" and think they answered it all. None of them apparently has the capacity to understand, that the Devs clearly stated that the hardpoint system means that only a mech designed to carry jumpjets can mount those.

None of the currently available medium mechs has jump jets in the set timeline. One of them will get a variant with JJs quite some time after the clan invasion, thus in several years to come, and that's it. This is why i am absolutely unhappy with the current lineup. We have one light and two heavies with JJs, and the assault class is most likely to get the next addition, where i wouldn't be surprised if we'd even get a jump capable assault mech. Traditionally mediums are a blend of agility and firepower, but our mediums are always only one of the two.

There are some non-unseed mediums with jump jets available. Assassin, Clint, Vulcan, Cameleon and Dervish would have them, the Trebuchet has a great variant with JJs. The medium cathegory urgently needs one of those to have at least one model of adequate mobility.

[Johnny Reb]

Veggies, on 03 June 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

The Cicada is a piece of junk.

Where are the TRUE mediums; Wolverine, Shadow Hawk, Griffin, Phoenix Hawk.

The ones I've grown up with. Hell even the Vulcan, Trebuchet and Blackjack or Vindicator would be good to see.

Centurion and Hunchback, yeah great...but Cicada? Oh please >_<

I'd agree the base is a peice of junk but with ppc it turns into a quasi scout/scout hunter. Which I would like to try. Fast but lack of jump jets limit it so no base capture (if base has any decent defense).

Edited by Johnny Reb, 05 June 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[Unclecid]

for me i also like to use fast heavys and always thought when teamed with 5/8/5 and 6/9/6 meds it always made for a solid strike team.

so ya the lack of any 5/8 or 6/9 jump-capable mechs is a bit disheartening.

but then again...these are just the first 11 meks out of 100's we could get...(not counting clancrud)

so there is always hope that we will have a well balanced choice of fire-power, armour and mobility once MWO goes Live.