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Differentiate Controller Analog Sticks


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#1 SaintApoc

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:03 AM

So, I have viewed many MANY forums and topics all over google and I cannot seem to find an answer to my issue (most likely because of how rare my case is).

OBVIOUSLY I know that a mouse is FAR more accurate than a joystick. I'm not here to get asked about the "why;" I'm here to ask about the "how."

I have a PS2-USB adapter that I am currently using with a PS1/PSx controller. Under any normal circumstances, I'm sure this would have worked. However, I have a specific model of PS1 controller, recognized as the SCPH-1110. Posted Image

The feeling of playing Mechwarrior with TWO Joysticks I'm SURE is a great experience. I've never been good at mouse and keyboard anyway, and find MWO particularly difficult with it.

The issue is this: Mechwarrior recognizes each individual joystick as the SAME joystick. Meaning, if I set the left joystick to function as torso twist and pitch, the right stick will also function the same way. This is NOT specific to MWO either.

I have tried running joy.cpl and it also recognizes them as one.
I have tried xpadder, and joytokey. Both recognize it as one.
Specifically in joytokey, It recognizes that there are two different joysticks. I set up one or the other as wasd, but both sticks then type wasd when moved. If I set one to mouse movements (and I LOVE that you can change the sensitivity with it, as analog isn't really supported in the program), the other also controls mouse movements. If I set one to mouse and the other to wasd, neither stick does anything.
I have tried MotionJoy (ds3tool) and it doesn't even register the device as connected (probably because it's not a PS3 controller)
I have installed the Super Joybox 3 Pro Driver (although I am not sure if I was supposed to uninstall the driver that the adapter put into the system or not. I really don't know how either way).
I have tried PPJoy, and am still in the process of figuring it out (it appears that my computer MUST be run in Test Mode in order to use it.) I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the computer to read these joy sticks as separate.

There is another, (less?) important issue: The switch on the right side is set to digital. My joysticks are completely unrecognized when set to analog. If it's not a driver error, could it be a hardware error (which I have hopeful doubt of) where the switch to analog is not making a connection? A hardware error might also explain why the joysticks are recognized as one (If they are connected in series, for whatever God-awful reason... but this I also doubt). EDIT: I am rethinking this last line, and realize that "series" is not the term for the electrical idea that I meant to say. I'm sure what I'm saying makes sense though.

I have tried unscrewing the bottom screws, but the bottom plate will NOT come off. I cannot figure out how to open up the damned controller to even see if the wires are ok.

I would appreciate a response regarding the software/drivers necessary to get this working. If that is dubbed impossible (or at least the support does not yet exist), then is there any other way that I could use a similar set up to play MWO (where two joysticks operate the Mech)?
I'm not rich, so I don't really intend on spending upwards of $100 on controllers, especially if they also will not work =/

Edited by SaintApoc, 12 April 2013 - 01:40 PM.


#2 Rizzelbizzeg

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:32 AM

A lot of controllers will hide one more screw underneath a sticker because they don't want you taking them apart. Any stickers on the bottom?

But I'm thinking it's probably a driver issue or has something to do with your psx to usb converter. something in there is crossing the streams. Try it on an old computer that actually has a PS/2 port with joy2key or whatever and see if you have the same problem.

#3 Loc Nar

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:59 AM

The good news is that it is a no brainer to use two sticks to drive a mech in MWO... that is if you have any two of the following: Thrustmaster sticks: T16000 ($40), Cougar (>$150), or Warthog (>$350), which are run by TARGET, Thrustmaster's excellent software to run them that would easily allow this configuration. Unfortunately you can't just take 2 of the $40 T16000's and combine them, so you would need to use it along with one of the expensive ones and the Cougar or Warthog by themselves make the scheme you seek obsolete, plus cost way more than you are willing to pay just to test a theory.

I suppose you could use the T16000 in emulator mode along with any other stick setup however, since it would be running TARGET MWO would only recognize the other stick plugged in as a stick, but as someone that has spent a lot of time thinking about and experimenting with MWO controls (using prior experience with peripherals/controls/simulator projects) I think you will be very disappointed with the results of the scheme you are pursuing.

Quote

OBVIOUSLY I know that a mouse is FAR more accurate than a joystick. I'm not here to get asked about the "why;" I'm here to ask about the "how."


Change the word joystick to the phrase airplane-joystick and you are correct, but as stands your statement is only >99% correct. :D I have constructed my own stick to use with MWO that a pretty serious departure from an airplane stick, and as such is just as accurate as a mouse, but easier to use in many regards. I know you didn't want to be asked why or want to discuss it, but as someone with such heavy interest on this specific subject, I am curious as to what attributes you have identified as the reason(s) a stick doesn't perform up to a mouse. I have listed the reasons I have identified below, as well as my personal workaround.

-attributes (effects)

Airplane stick:

-moves in pitch/roll (unnatural range of motion, not reflexively intuitive)
-spring centering, most likely with detents (fights inputs, negative interactions across the axes center's)
-requires deadzones (distracting, imprecise, disconnected feeling between inputs and in-game reactions, wasted range of motion)
-uses relative inputs (mech movements wind up either too slow or uncontrollable, difficult to not to overshoot past target, combined with the first 3 problems adds up to a non-viable control option)

Mouse:
-moves in x/y Cartesian Plane (natural range of movement of the reticule)
-has no spring centering or detents (nothing fighting inputs, unrestricted movement)
-no deadzones (always in control, precision across centers no different than any other point in x/y)
-uses absolute inputs (obvious and easy to control, very precise)

My modded Cougar
http://imgur.com/a/ixi64 <---link to album, descriptions with pics

-moves in zenith/azimuth (pitch/twist -natural range of movement of the mech)
-no spring centering/detents, but has tensioned/greased rubs (nothing fighting inputs, unrestricted smooth damped movement, holds position when not being moved therefore maintins physical orientation releated to on-screen states)
-no deadzones (always in control, precision across center no different than any other point in x/y)
-uses absolute inputs (obvious and easy to control, very precise)

This stick is mounted in my new mechpit... check it out!

#4 SaintApoc

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:21 AM

I have to say, out of every forum I've ever been a member of, seeing your fast and particularly helpful responses put me under the understanding that this is a community-oriented group of players, and I am grateful. Thank you, Rizzelbizzeg and Loc Nar for your time.

View PostLoc Nar, on 09 April 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Change the word joystick to the phrase airplane-joystick and you are correct, but as stands your statement is only >99% correct. :ph34r: I have constructed my own stick to use with MWO that a pretty serious departure from an airplane stick, and as such is just as accurate as a mouse, but easier to use in many regards. I know you didn't want to be asked why or want to discuss it, but as someone with such heavy interest on this specific subject, I am curious as to what attributes you have identified as the reason(s) a stick doesn't perform up to a mouse. I have listed the reasons I have identified below, as well as my personal workaround.

I have read through a lot of forums in the past couple of days and, on the related subject, a vast majority of people appear to be extremely biased on the matter. There are people who (in respect to gamepads) feel that using your arms are far more accurate than using your thumbs (which I do agree with), and there are people who feel that console gamers should stick with consoles. I guess really what I'm saying is that my quote is unwarranted. A joystick is NOT the same as the thumbstick on a pad (though this IS a PS1 controller, it is not a pad, and I guess I just confused myself by overthinking about the people who don't care to help and instead shoot down ideas).

After viewing those albums, I have this to say: There are serious gamers, and then there is Loc Nar. If no one else has ever praised you for your effort, then you alone should recognize how gratifying such time and patience is. That chair and stick set-up is AWESOME [to say the least]! I hope that I can someday have the same creativity, time, patience, space, resources, and finesse to craft something even half as wicked as your mech-pit. Well done!

View PostLoc Nar, on 09 April 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

I think you will be very disappointed with the results of the scheme you are pursuing.

Is it the particular way that I intend to use my sticks? Or is it the fact that I'm using two sticks to begin with (because I really don't want to use a single stick with twist action)?
I see you have two joysticks on your chair, so I am a little confused as to what precisely you mean by my scheme.

I did a quick skim of your post of Mechpit II and didn't really see a description about the functionality of each control. I'm just a young boy, and don't really know too much when it comes to hardware.
I would assume one pedal would be to handle throttle at different percents (given that it's pressure sensitive), and the other for.... halting, maybe?
I can see the right stick in that case being torso pitch and twist, but then that leaves left stick to just leg turning, which I feel is not the case.
I am by no means a competetive player. The only controls I intend to use are x/y axis throttle (at 100%, though analog would be nice), torso pitch/twist (at 100%, though analog would be nice), power toggle, group switching (using the keyboard to preset my group numbers at the training grounds), group fire, alpha strike, zoom, and jump jets. I am pretty sure I can put those all on the same controller. If I want to switch on thermal (because I can't stand night vision), I can either assign a key if any are left over, or just use the keyboard at that moment. While CLEARLY your setup is far more immensely satisfying than what I want to do, I think I might be at least OK with my subpar scheme. Elaborate, please.

Edited by SaintApoc, 09 April 2013 - 10:26 AM.


#5 Foust

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:32 AM

I believe he is referring to the traditional movement/centering/relative movement of the "airplane" style stick, not your particular layout.

I'm pretty sure Locnar is getting kick backs from Thrustmaster by now. :-)

#6 SaintApoc

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:52 AM

I'll wait for his response. In the meantime, I have discovered that dualshock 2 controllers work fine with my adapter. Which means one of two things: Either the SCPH-1110 is screwed up, OR the driver for the adapter does not support the SCPH-1110. As a result, I am wondering if something along the lines of this is possible:
http://www.acidmods....p?topic=39784.0
Basically, the guy took two separate joysticks and wired them to a single controller board (looks like from a ps3 controller) which is already compatable. If that could work, then I would technically be able to upen up the SCPH-1110 and rewire it to a single dualshock 2 controller for use. Anyone think that's a good idea?

#7 Foust

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:06 AM

Sure you can do that. There are some other hardware options if you are wanting to rebuild that stick.

I and a few others have used a Teensy++ Loaded with GenericHID, gives you quite a bit of flexability but you will not be able to take advantage of TARGET. (I hear that is popular)

You will spend a lot of time rewiring, and trouble shooting etc while a T16000 runs $40-45....

#8 SaintApoc

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:21 AM

From the research, it seems to allow for testing and configuring controllers. I don't intend to get too technical; I figure by simply rewiring a dual stick PS1 controller to a PS2 analog gamepad, there shouldn't be very much issue; it looks very simple. I'm hoping it would be a lot like taking one controller apart and putting it back together again.
While the T-16000 looks promising, I want to at least give this idea a try, since it would be a unique controller.

EDIT/UPDATE:
I found that Rizzelbizzeg was right! the bottom soft pads (to prevent the controller from sliding and prevent damage to the bottom metal plate) had screws underneath them! I opened it up, as well as a dualshock 2 controller... yup, completely different. I'm going to re-edit this post (or post pics if someone replies) of what it looks like inside, and hopefully a hardware savvy merc can guide me through (via this forum or a quicker method). As far as electricity goes, I DID happen to notice that, on the board, there are 4 connections, one of which I'm assuming is missing. D14, D6, D7, D8 look like some sort of resistors.. I'm thinking because it says "D" that they are diodes. D7 is completely gone, despite appearing as though it should be there. That particular component did NOT fall out of the bottom when I opened it, meaning that it is either the way it's supposed to be, or the controller was manufactured with that error by accident, and can therefore be a catastrophic issue in the entire system. By replacing that, I'm assuming I will solve some sort of issue.

Edited by SaintApoc, 09 April 2013 - 12:15 PM.


#9 Loc Nar

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:47 PM

Quote

I have read through a lot of forums in the past couple of days and, on the related subject, a vast majority of people appear to be extremely biased on the matter. There are people who (in respect to gamepads) feel that using your arms are far more accurate than using your thumbs (which I do agree with), and there are people who feel that console gamers should stick with consoles. I guess really what I'm saying is that my quote is unwarranted. A joystick is NOT the same as the thumbstick on a pad (though this IS a PS1 controller, it is not a pad, and I guess I just confused myself by overthinking about the people who don't care to help and instead shoot down ideas)

.

I hope that you find the information you need to come up with an awesome control scheme that works for you. I find typically that people do not accurately identify to the key points of what is the actual issue with controls since there are often a lot of variables masking the underlying fundamental issue and as a result there tends to be much confusion and misunderstanding on the subject. There are a few aspects to this that have to be understood in order to objectively navigate these semi-charted waters regardless of how ones interface looks or feels, at some point in-game these are all converted into the same inputs and it boils down to which one of two types.

There is no point in discussing button mapping since it is not the source of any contention as far as performance is concerned, so the items of concern are the axes, specifically x/y for moving the torso/aiming. Throttle and turning axes actually work quite well as is with little fuss to have excellent results, so also don't need much discussion as to performance... back to x/y. As I mentioned, there are two types of inputs possible, RELATIVE, or ABSOLUTE, and which one you are using makes a huge difference on how you experience the game. It's important to understand what these mean in practice, so I use the marble on a plane of glass analogy to make it easier to visualize in context.

Picture a 12" square sheet of glass and a marble sitting on it. Using relative inputs is like trying to move the marble by picking up the sheet of glass with the marble balanced on it and tilting it front/back and side/side, quickly leveling it again when it's where you want it to be in x/y coordinates. Using absolute inputs however would be like placing the same piece glass level on a desk in front of you and using your hand to reach out and directly move the marble wherever you want on the plane, and for this reason are also called direct inputs.

No matter what controller one is using or their preferences towards it, it comes down to using relative or absolute inputs. Sure different shapes have different levels of optimized ergonomics and feel, but where it counts an x-box D-pad or thumbstick is much closer than not to airplane stick (as defined in my first post), and is relegated to using relative inputs and this... this is what puts it in the same category of using relative inputs, which is a disadvantage in terms of control since it forces one to choose between either reaction speed or controllability. As such, you will be hard pressed to find anyone that uses any relative input device effectively piloting fast movers -lights and fast mediums due to these reasons. The faster the mech, the more pronounced the effect...

MWO is designed around the direct inputs a mouse produces, and other than a mouse the 3 Thrustmaster sticks I listed are the only other known devices capable of affecting this type of input, since TARGET, Thrustmaster's software allows this as a standard feature. As Foust points out, I now may actually receive royalties from Thrustmaster at this point (man I wish!), but in all seriousness it is precisely for this reason they come up in my conversations a lot.

I know of no other route to what I consider a viable stick. There are a whole host of other benefits to using TARGET, but most of them can be achieved via other emulators or some other type of workaround. In the end, it comes down to TARGET being the only (will someone please prove this wrong?!) one that has this degree of control over the axes, which in turn allows one to overcome the odds stacked against using a stick. One can spend a lot of time simply overcoming the small technical challenges of getting even a regular stick to work the best it possibly can, but in the end you still have a regular (airplane) stick, which for the reasons already cited have pretty serious limitations due to the gimbal and input type.



Quote

I hope that I can someday have the same creativity, time, patience, space, resources, and finesse to craft something even half as wicked as your mech-pit. Well done!


Many thanks for the kind words, it's much appreciated. You should really check out the other pits though, most of which are viewable here in repetes simpit summary thread.


Quote

Is it the particular way that I intend to use my sticks? Or is it the fact that I'm using two sticks to begin with (because I really don't want to use a single stick with twist action)? (snip) I see you have two joysticks on your chair, so I am a little confused as to what precisely you mean by my scheme.


Not due to the way you want to use them, but for the reasons stemming from relative vs absolute inputs leading to a less than satisfactory result. By 'your scheme', I mean that even with a normal stick/throttle that takes little effort to get working, the experience is very challenging, and you have the additional challenge of getting non-native hardware to work with a game that has troubles even with native hardare. Going further into more subjective territory, I do think it would be even more challenging to use a second stick instead of a throttle due to how one uses the axes to achieve inputs (unless you are actually ambidextrous), but it would be such an uphill climb to even get to a place to test this out that once you experienced how difficult that control setup would be I'm pretty sure you would be disappointed at best.

As to my own setup, what you are calling a second stick is actually a dedicated throttle. It is a Thrustmaster Cougar, which is a an all-metal reproduction of the stick/throttle of an F-16, and it controls every single function of the game without needing to take my hands off (called H.O.T.A.S. for Hands On Stick And Throttle) unless I want to type in chat. The Warthog is also a HOTAS setup, and while the T16000 stick I listed doesn't have the throttle as a separate component, it does have one and likewise controls all in-game functions from the stick and it's buttons. There are other nice HOTAS out there, but none have the capability of absolute inputs. The easiest route to a fully functional setup is a dedicated throttle for movement and secondary functions, and a good gaming mouse. Not the coolest looking arrangement, but the shortest path to a setup that is competitive. Bear in mind that this game is actually really hard even with perfectly viable and tuned controls; so adding layers of difficulty on top of this is not likely to prove a satisfying endeavor, but YMMV.


My left hand is on the throttle, which pivots forward/backward just like a boat throttle. On it are several in-game buttons (zoom, scoreboard, battlegrid, vision modes, shift layer) all sensibly mapped, that keep my left hand from needing to touch the keyboard. I use rudder pedals to steer my legs, but I do also have a backup 'a'/'d' on the throttle in case the pedals ever get jenky during a match. My right hand is on the stick, which is moving my torso up/down/side/side and controls all weapons/weapons list/jumpjets/etc, keeping my right hand from needing the keyboard. Since my scheme is emulator based, my keyboard is still active however (mouse too...) and I can use it to type in chat or to perform any other normal in-game functions, since my controls are also based off default mapping.

Quote



While CLEARLY your setup is far more immensely satisfying than what I want to do, I think I might be at least OK with my subpar scheme. Elaborate, please.



I think I've elaborated on what may leave you frustrated with your own endeavors, but the takeaway is anything using relative inputs is challenging at best, even once you are past the technical challenges of establishing function. By all means, test, pursue, and continue to chase the avenues you feel may lead to a viable scheme, and post away with results and questions!. Related, but sort of not, I actually just (bout an hr ago) sent Matthiew Craig, (MWO technical director) a nice long winded message about sticks, gimbals, inputs, and how it relates to the Artemis controller after recently learning that it's not officially dead.
Posted Image<---Artemis

I'm a sucker for a good dual stick though... check out this piece of awesome prototypeage:
Posted Image<--Mek Fu (Hakwen)

...and of course the venerable SteelBattalion controller (which people have been using with MWO)
Posted Image

edit: linky

Edited by Loc Nar, 09 April 2013 - 02:21 PM.


#10 SaintApoc

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 01:34 PM

Okay, so what I'm getting from your Relative vs. Absolute analogy is this: A "flight-stick" (which includes resistance via spring, as you indicated in the prior post) is relative. By moving this stick, you are sending your cursor in that direction until you reach the desired point, at which point you must return the stick to center in order to stay at that point. A "joystick" (which IMO is like a trackball mouse) will take you to a precise destination, thus making it absolute. It does not offer resistance and does not need to be re-centered to stop the cursor. I definitely see how this is a much more efficient method.

You also make some other valid irrefutable points, such as difficulty being stacked on top of difficulty being less and less rewarding.

Also, your link is broken. I did a google search, and believe the link you're trying to show me is http://mwomercs.com/...summary-thread/
Which, after reviewing, is absolutely mind-blowing. That's not to say that your masterpiece is any less amazing, just that I was very much unaware of how emotional and dedicated the fanbase is about this game, if you can even call it that anymore. It really is a simulator. THE FUTURE IS WAR!

As for your setup, that all makes SO much more sense now. I feel like the pedals would be something that I'd have to get use to for controlling turning. Not that that puts me off, just that I feel like I need to make due with the resources I have.

Just to be clear, I HAVE been playing the game with an XBOX 360 controller, and the only real issue I've been having is actually with torso twist and pitch, NOT with throttle+left turn and right turn. That and my siblings want to use it for the games they have on their computers, like Mario Kart -.- . It appears as though there isn't currently a way to increase the sensitivity of the XBOX controller input, so my torso moves a hell of a lot slower compared to when I use the mouse to play (meaning it has nothing to do with which mech I'm using or which experience things [for lack of the appropriate word at the moment] as far as twist speed goes. As you must be able to tell, I am very much so a casual user. I DO play better with the XBOX controller than I do with the mouse (despite having increased torso action), but it's all irrelevant because I'm not a very good player. That, I assume I will learn how to deal with in time (gain in APM, gain in strategy, gain in ability to control my mech). Also, I feel like you're subliminally trying to recruit me into the serious gamer world, and I am very accepting of that (minus my current lack of funds).

That Artemis looks pretty awesome; it's like a speed-pad and a joystick along with a nice torso/legs direction map. I think I would drop my money in that Mek-Fu if given the chance; it looks like a serious piece of hardware. Also, I had NO IDEA you could use the Steel Battalion controller on PC! I thought that was specific to XBOX >.<. If Id've known that a week ago, I would have put my investment in that thing =/. Oh well, I have one last resort before I save up for 2/3 of the controllers you suggested.

I'm currently preoccupied by other duties; I will come in less than 2 1/2 hours time to continue this discussion. Thank you all for your input; this information is INVALUABLE!

EDIT:
So, after looking at the rest of the board and seeing how everything connects, I have determined that the missing diode is in fact not only missing, but important.

Edited by SaintApoc, 12 April 2013 - 01:04 PM.


#11 SaintApoc

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:23 AM

After reviewing the guidelines, I did not see any rules on double posting (although it may be somewhere that I missed). So, for this one time only, this is a post after my post. I looked up how to identify a diode; it doesn't seem all that difficult. I will not be home today to review the colored bands on these guys (I'm also hoping that it's the SAME diode as the other three), but I believe that all I should have to do is identify the diode (hopefully my eyes will tell me correctly), find one online (or hopefully at radioshack), and solder it to the board (using the solderpoints on the OTHER SIDE of this board) while keeping the direction the same.
If I'm missing something curcial, or if someone can help me speed up the process by giving me a general idea of which part number the missing D7 might be, that would be greeatly appreciated. Thank you guys for all your support; I hope that as I progress in Mechwarrior I will be able to return the favor. Happy hunting!

EDIT: I have narrowed down the possibilites to two specific diodes: 1N41 and 1N48. 2/3 remaining diodes are 1N41, and 1/3 is 1N48. I am going to try to replace it with a 1N41 I found from an old game board I found. I'm basing this on probability, and the datasheets I viewed:
http://www.americanm...pec/?ss_pn=1N41
http://www.americanm...pec/?ss_pn=1N48
The datasheet for the 41 has a lower milliamp input/output, so I'm banking on it acting like a fuse if it's not the correct diode.
EDIT: Turns out that I might be wrong, and I am glad. The diodes are so small that they literally say 41, and then 48, making them "1N4148" diodes, all the same. Third edit when I test it.

EDIT: no avail; still recognizes the joysticks as one. I'm going to look into teensy++ (I want to get SOME use out of this hardware, despite it being relevant and not absolute) but I'm going to start a new thread for that. Thanks for all your help guys!

Edited by SaintApoc, 11 April 2013 - 03:05 PM.


#12 Mutant150

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 12:49 PM

Hi there, I have the same Sony Analog Joystick (SCPH-1110). First of all, you are not going to get it to work as separate sticks in DIGITAL mode. That mode was designed for compatibility with games on the PS1 that only accept a single DPAD input.

In ANALOG mode, with my USB converter, the controllers buttons work (including the hat), but I can't see any joystick data. It does present itself as having X,Y,Z,RZ axes, but the sticks don't move them.

I'm going to try to rewire mine to an old PS1 dual-analog controller (scph-1200). I believe there may be more success with that because the PS2 controllers have pressure-sensitive (analog) buttons. the PS1 dual-analog controller doesn't so it maps more closely to the values in the scph-1110. If I have any success I'll let you know.

#13 Xoxidine

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 08:59 PM

I just found this topic looking around for something similar. Did anyone get their PS1 controller to work?

#14 Zirakss

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 05:44 AM

Thanks a lot for posting that generic USB boards. That would be a way to get my old gameport hardware to work again.





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