119 replies to this topic

[Ilwrath]

AlexEss, on 11 April 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

So i'd say you went in with the pre.conception that the system was flawed and keept looking for one. A real new player will not do this.

A real new player will just get brutally stomped game after game and thus understand that the system is flawed and go play another game.

That we have more groups than single players should tell you all you ever need to know about how this game is doing. Free to pay games need a constant flow of new players, especially free to pay games with a tiny population. Like this one.

I don't understand why they have not added a solo only que already. It makes zero sense unless its part of some grand plan.

The grand plan may be to get 3rd person view and hit Steam. That would be like urinating in your pants to keep the warmth.

Edited by Ilwrath, 12 April 2013 - 12:03 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mack1, on 11 April 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Premades faced 25/25 That's right guys, every single game was against 4 man premades, sometimes we had some but quite often we never. I also noticed players who were vets, they had been playing for months, their Mechs were all pimped out while I was in a lousy trial mech.

Yes the devs have been telling us for MONTHS that this doesnt actually happen

Ilwrath, on 12 April 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

I don't understand why they have not added a solo only que already. It makes zero sense unless its part of some grand plan.

This idea was shot down hard by the devs the first time it was suggested and I believe the stated reason was "because it will segement the player base"

as will game modes (by their own words)
as will 3rd person ques
as will regional servers etc

[Takony]

"Cadet que" won't cut it imho.

Better to give cadets a low ELO ranking instead of an average, so they start the game playing largely among themselves, without artifically segregating the playerbase with a separate "que".

The reason why new players are butchered, besides the coffins called trial "mechs", is the following, as many pointed out above:

When a new player makes account, gets average (say 1000) ELO rating. Then he gets pounded hard, so his stats are bad, but by the time his cadet bonus is out, it is only 25 matches, so he is still at an average ELO rating, thus gets beaten a lot, until he finally reaches a lower ELO rating, just for example, below average, on say 750 rating.

Then the new player starts to get better, gets to kit out a good mech, gains some tactical awareness, and starts to slowly climb back to average, but to do so, he has to actually do a little bit better than average.

That leads to a peculiar situation: in matches on the "average" ELO rating assigned to new players, we will find at least two kinds of players: new players who are struggling to learn the game, and players who have climbed out of the "pit" of lower ELO rating to reach average again, so they are in fact blooded mechwarriors , who are getting better in their game. For the latter group, the total newbies are just delicious free cbill and xp pinatas to bash.

And then you have the strange situation when the matchmaker decides to average ELO ratings by throwing wolves, preferably in packs, between the newborn solo lambs, and then the game software and whatnot spices things up with the odd disconnects and innumerable HUD bugs. Not to mention new players are prone to have zero knowledge about the weapon balance/FOTM of the given patch, so they usually bring knives to gunfights even in their first owned mech.

Solution could be:
- assign low ELO rating to new players instead of average
- trial mechs must not be stock mechs, they should be actual player-made "real" builds, just like the Dragon N(C) in this month.

New players are needed to keep the game going, so let's not scare them away PGI.

[Ilwrath]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

Yes the devs have been telling us for MONTHS that this doesnt actually happen

I find it hard to believe them. At this point I think they will tell whatever fairytale they need to keep the premade whales happy.
They could just mark premades like World of Tanks does. Its like they take all that was awful with WoT, like expensive prem tanks, while ignoring the good stuff like marked premades (rather small premades) and a really soft start with only newbie tanks.

WoT had its own problems but it never made me angry about premaders or horrid game breaking bugs. It had some really bad maps but at least it was bad maps with a fair setup.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Ilwrath, on 12 April 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

I find it hard to believe them. At this point I think they will tell whatever fairytale they need to keep the premade whales happy.
They could just mark premades like World of Tanks does. Its like they take all that was awful with WoT, like expensive prem tanks, while ignoring the good stuff like marked premades (rather small premades) and a really soft start with only newbie tanks.

They pretend its like one in five
Wich is and always HAS BEEN crap in my opinion

[Ilwrath]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

They pretend its like one in five
Wich is and always HAS BEEN crap in my opinion

They have said that there is more premade players than single players so there should always be a premade present, or two if you are unlucky.

[Ilwrath]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

This idea was shot down hard by the devs the first time it was suggested and I believe the stated reason was "because it will segement the player base"

Nobody, not even the most rabid fanbois, believe that any more. I think that was some stupid idea they got and now it will hurt their ego to change it.

As you said the player base will be heavily fragmented by the server split and on top of that, 3rd p v and 1st p v.
I wonder why that is unproblematic while giving solo players a que is BAD for the game?

[One Medic Army]

Just going to point out the possibility that the people you asked about being in a premade lied.
I've had plenty of people on my team claim to be a premade, while saying in teamchat it was a joke, or claim to be sync droppers etc...

Now I PUG mainly (occasionally with a friend or two, rarely) these days, and I can tell when I'm facing a real "hardcore" premade, the guys who are actually in a clan together, coordinate builds, stuff like that. It happens, in my experience, less than 50% of the games I'm in, and a good 50-75% of the games I'm vs a premade there's one on my team as well, or I'm with a friend or two myself.
There may be premades in the rest, but I hardly consider 4 random guys on TS together a real premade.

Edited by One Medic Army, 12 April 2013 - 12:32 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Ilwrath, on 12 April 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

Nobody, not even the most rabid fanbois, believe that any more. I think that was some stupid idea they got and now it will hurt their ego to change it.

As you said the player base will be heavily fragmented by the server split and on top of that, 3rd p v and 1st p v.
I wonder why that is unproblematic while giving solo players a que is BAD for the game?

not saying I believe it, lol Im using their most silly things and reposting them where most humerous.
for instance:

when asked:

Quote

Shumabot, on 21 March 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I asked this a bit ago, but you might not have seen it. What is your plan to avoid playerbase fragmentation? Do you think that a full release population boom would be able to absorb the issue, keeping in mind that you're also planning on splitting up regional servers?

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

This is one of our largest concerns. In fact, it's one of the reasons we don't just jam in more game modes. Yes, a theoretical boom would help ease a transition, but we're not going to rely on that to solve this issue. We are still formulating a plan. I don't have a complete answer for you at this time.

Game modes = playerbase fragmentation

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Yes we agree, 3rd person is not the entire solution, only part of it. Resources are already working primarily on those exact features. Not one single person is working on 3rd person.

then

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

Try not to view this as Community Warfare vs 3rd person. They don't compete for development time. We are actively working on CW right now. 3rd person has one person assigned to it... me.

lol

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 12 April 2013 - 12:36 AM.

[Tenzek]

Eddy Hawkins, on 11 April 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

i am guessing you have never played EvE Online....

Especially back when EVE came out. I started playing that in 2003, and this is basically the new player experience:

Here is a useless ship. @#$% YOU!

They have an elaborate and useful tutorial system there now. Back then they told you just about zilch about the game and its controls.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Tenzek, on 12 April 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

Especially back when EVE came out. I started playing that in 2003, and this is basically the new player experience:

Here is a useless ship. @#$% YOU!

They have an elaborate and useful tutorial system there now. Back then they told you just about zilch about the game and its controls.

Ive only been playing that seven years, but when I started it was similar. There was no tutorial, it was "plop" heres space. Have fun

[Slanski]

But then again EVE is still alive today, because CCP understands who their player base is and caters to them and not a fictional player base they'd like to have. A niche product for niche players who shell out the money to keep a unique great game alive.

[Mack1]

BladeSplint, on 11 April 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

its not the mech, its the pilot. Just take the time to hone your skills and make sure your positioning is good relative to your team. Yes the trial mechs suck but they aren't unplayable if your heat management is good.

Nope it was not pilot error, I actually played very well in pretty much every game, most of them were total wipeouts. The problem was I was facing premades and not just that but premades with Hero Mechs. The Mech I was in was useless at close range as it just had 3 ppc and 1 SL, no one in their right mind would build a Mech like that, it was very hot and only went 48kph, I was a sitting duck for lights or mediums.

Also making a cadet v cadet queue would not work due to a lack of cadet players, the simple answer is to have a queue to solo players and another queue for everything else, it's obvious.

EDIT: Yes I have played EVE and it's fine for new players but tbh it's a totally different type of game and not really a good game to compare with MWO.

Edited by Mack1, 12 April 2013 - 01:16 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Slanski, on 12 April 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

But then again EVE is still alive today, because CCP understands who their player base is and caters to them and not a fictional player base they'd like to have. A niche product for niche players who shell out the money to keep a unique great game alive.

Monoclegate - Summer of Rage - Incarna - Greed is Good - 20% company wide layoffs

Pretty much those five things are what turned around that company and WHY they now realize ******* their players over is bad. The months they let the game (or what they had then termed "FiS") stagnate to create walking around avatars pissed off their players enough and it hit them in the wallet so hard they had to fire 20% of their entire employee base at the company.

Mack1, on 12 April 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

EDIT: Yes I have played EVE and it's fine for new players but tbh it's a totally different type of game and not really a good game to compare with MWO.

They werent comparing the game itself they were comparing the learning curve

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 12 April 2013 - 01:35 AM.

[One Medic Army]

Mack1, on 12 April 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

Nope it was not pilot error, I actually played very well in pretty much every game, most of them were total wipeouts. The problem was I was facing premades and not just that but premades with Hero Mechs.

I could have sworn that hero mechs were generally considered inferior or at best equivalent to non-hero variants.

[Ilwrath]

One Medic Army, on 12 April 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

I could have sworn that hero mechs were generally considered inferior or at best equivalent to non-hero variants.

That is correct. The point is that a brand new player was facing those premade whales. I think.
It could have been even worse. It could have been those awful poptart sniper premades. Those are seriously
unfun to play against even if you have understood how the game works and are able to hit.

The jumping Aspergers...

[No7]

I wonder what is so difficult.

Any change compared to the current system would be an improvement.

All new pilots should be matched against other new pilots. NEVER against any premade group. That is just ********.
If the matchmaker can't find a 8v8 with new pilots, just reduce the number of pilots. What is wrong with dropping a 6v6 or 4v4?

And of course, they should not be dropped into live action at once. They should have a PVE setup where they will be rewarded the mech after finishing the tutorial. This tutorial would also give an introduction to the universe and most importantly the huge mech that you are about to pilot. That should have been a priority 1 issue before even considering going open beta.

But no, let's implement 3rd person view instead. That will keep the new players interested!

7

[meteorol]

Mack1, on 11 April 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

I can honestly say that in years and years of gaming MWO is by far the toughest and most brutal introduction to a game for new players that I have ever seen.

I will NEVER understand why some guys won't stop claming mwo had a brutal introduction compared to other games. Seriously.

Let someone who never played BF 3 try to pilot the helicopter for 5 straight matches. He will recieve a heartcrushing bash which is LIGHTYEARS ahead of anything happening in mwo. He will probably have stats of 0:75 after those five matches. Honestly, i would be suprised if a brand new player would even score a single kill in the helicopter.
Heck, i would be suprised if he would manage it to keep his helicopter in the air for 15 seconds before being blown into pieces.
He won't even have the unlocks to survive (flares against laser guided missiles? not so much)

Do you think Counterstrike is easier to get into?

I played a 5on5 match with some new guy yesterday(4 guys on ts + 1 random). Skill ground was gold nova 2, this guy didn't even had a rank yet. (Meaning he had to play with guys somewhere around rank 7-9 of 18, without having enough wins to even have a rank).
He didn't score a SINGLE KILL and died every round. His average livespan after seeing a player of the opposite team was 0.1-3 seconds. He basically spent 85% of the match watching us, and 15% acutally playing.
Even while playing public, you can frequently see guys having stats of 1:19 or even worse.
Is MWO really harder than this? I don't think so.

Get over it. The new player introduction in mwo is not more brutal than most first person shooters out there. It simply isn't.

Edited by meteorol, 12 April 2013 - 03:39 AM.

[Ilwrath]

meteorol, on 12 April 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

I will NEVER understand why some guys won't stop claming mwo had a brutal introduction compared to other games. Seriously.

Let someone who never played BF 3 try to pilot the helicopter for 5 straight matches. He will recieve a heartcrushing bash which is LIGHTYEARS ahead of anything happening in mwo. He will probably have stats of 0:75 after those five matches. Honestly, i would be suprised if a brand new player would even score a single kill in the helicopter.
Heck, i would be suprised if he would manage it to keep his helicopter in the air for 15 seconds before being blown into pieces.

He could do as everybody else and jump into an empty server and test it out. The main part of the game, shooting guns, is really easy to get right if you have ever played similar games before. Even if you came from some action-fps like UT or Quake it would be easy to adjust. Helicopter driving is a tiny part of the game. You can ofc make it a major part but you don't have to.

Getting insta-gibbed by the coordinated alpha strikes from a premade, now that is a brutal intro to this game. It may get old after the 10th time. The only people that thinks that is okay are the same premaders that feel that the 8 man que is too rough for them. After all; the 8 man que is filled with cheese setups and that is no fun. Better join the 4 man que and play cheese mechs there.

Edited by Ilwrath, 12 April 2013 - 03:43 AM.

[phelan spider]

I did the same thing and detailed it here. I agree that the new player ELO is messed up because I saw a lot of premades too.

http://mwomercs.com/...93#entry2198893