73 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Given that I have recently racked up some awesome mountains of likes with epic image memes, I figured it's time to spend some of that ever important forum cred on some suggestions that I feel are timely given the current state of things.

First, some background... I like PPC's. I like all travel time weapons. I've been using them consistently since closed beta, so the fact that they all hit exactly where I aim, and have no firing delay is like a freaking gift from God. Best time I've had in Mechwarrior since prior to the first patch of Mechwarrior 4 Vengeance.

However, I also feel that it has exposed some issues which will eventually degrade things. I expect that the current "everyone take a highlander" meta is gonna fade quickly, but still, I think that we need to look at how things have changed as a result of functional, modern netcode.

Now that the netcode seems to pretty much work correctly, long range direct fire weaponry is a valid and effective means to play the game. This is, without question, a good thing.

However, this means that it is time to revisit some of the previous balance changes that were made in an environment where long range direct fire was not really viable.

Thus, I suggest the following changes to weaponry:
1) Medium lasers - Reduce heat back to the original value of 3
2) Small Lasers - reduce heat back to the original value of 1
3) Medium Pulse Lasers - reduce heat back to the original value of 4
4) Small Pulse Lasers - reduce heat back to the original value of 2
5) Large Pulse Lasers - Increase damage up to 12

Note, I'm not talking about missile weapons here. While I feel that there are certain changes necessary, I feel that is a discussion to be had separately.

This post is mainly about the small and medium lasers (with the LPL thrown in as well), because I feel that we may want to go back to simply reverting the changes previously made to these weapons.

In order to decide whether we should revert those changes, we need to examine why those changes were originally made to begin with.

Back in closed beta, all of the netcode was basically borked. All of the long range weapons, with the exception of the gauss, were basically useless... and the gauss was largely only usable by folks with good pings. PPC's were much hotter, as were Large Lasers. Also, all of the maps were small, close quarters affairs.

This resulted in small and medium lasers being dominant weapons, especially on the limited chassis of the day which included the Jenner and the Hunchback 4P. Also, without engine/speed caps, you could make mechs that tooled around at extremely high speed (further exacerbating the netcode problems), capable of delivering fairly large alpha strikes against targets which were largely incapable of returning fire effectively.

What's worse, given the essential lack of reliable long range weaponry, there was very little that you could do against an advancing medium laser boat to slow him down. He'd be moving at over 100kph, so it was only taking a few seconds to get within range of his medium lasers, at which point he was just gonna beat you on efficiency if you had any other weapon type. This led to an overall lack of balance, and the heat of the small energy weapons was increased in an attempt to balance them against everything else.

Today though, much of this has changed.

Now, we (obviously) have extremely effective long range direct fire weaponry. There is, without question, the ability to crush a mech while he is closing on your position if he does not maneuver to use cover.

But despite the changes that enable effective long range weapons, we still have the nerfs of the light energy weapons. The result of this is that even if that mech is capable of getting up in your face, at optimal range of his weapons (generally through effective manevuering) he's still not at much of (or any) advantage against a PPC/Gauss boat. In terms of heat/damage, the medium lasers are identical to PPC's.. only the PPC's are capable of always dumping all of the damage on a single panel, while the medium lasers must be held on target during their discharge.

For this reason, I think it is worth resetting the light energy weapons to their original stats, and seeing how they balance out against the long range direct fire weapons.

My hypothesis is that this will make them more effective at short range, but less effective at long range.. which is exactly how they are supposed to function.

This is, in my mind, a better option than simply nerfing the long range direct fire weapons. It preserves the long range, skill based sniper play that many players enjoy. However, it also ENABLES short range brawling, that other players enjoy. It then becomes a contest of positioning, in order to try and get the fight that you are ranged for (or carry configurations capable of fighting at both ranges).

I think this is a reasonable request, and fairly easy to implement, and worth at least examining.

[Davers]

I think medium lasers are already pretty cool. I can fire them a long time in my Hunchback 4SP, and can even get about 3 alphas off in my 9 medium laser 4P without worrying about heat. And I don't think LPL are so overpowered that we need to give them their old heat back. For 12 heat, they might as well be ERPPCs.

Not going to really comment on the small lasers and SPL since I only see the odd Jenner running them.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Why not wait and see how the missiles turn out before trying to fix another variable? Right now we're still at Rock/Paper and no scissors.

[Odanan]

Red Line Pilot, right? No... I think the lasers' heat is fine.

Machineguns and Flamers, on the other hand, are awful.

[Roland]

Davers, on 17 April 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I think medium lasers are already pretty cool. I can fire them a long time in my Hunchback 4SP, and can even get about 3 alphas off in my 9 medium laser 4P without worrying about heat.

They are certainly not trash tier weapons, but the issue you will find right now is that they are exactly as efficient as PPC's currently.

That means that at long range, the PPC's will ruin your mech without you being able to touch them.
At short range (until you are literally touching him at 90m) you are merely EQUAL to the PPC boat in terms of combat efficiency.. and really, even at optimal ML range, he's more efficient since he's dumping all of his damage on single panels.

Again, I'm not suggesting a crazy change here. I'm merely suggesting we remove an earlier nerf, which was made to deal with factors that no longer exist.

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And I don't think LPL are so overpowered that we need to give them their old heat back. For 12 heat, they might as well be ERPPCs.

Ah, I think you misread my post. I'm actually suggesting BUFFING the Large Pulse Lasers, increasing their DAMAGE to 12.

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Not going to really comment on the small lasers and SPL since I only see the odd Jenner running them.

Ya, they're pretty much garbage now, and no one uses them.

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Why not wait and see how the missiles turn out before trying to fix another variable? Right now we're still at Rock/Paper and no scissors.

Well, I think missile weapons are going to be much more complex to balance, and in many ways they don't play into this discussion much.

Certainly, LRM's play no role in this really, as they aren't particularly good against direct fire snipers.

In terms of SRM's, improving the medium laser efficiency would actually benefit many of the mechs which rely on SRM's.

Given that we'd just be returning to old Battletech values here, I think it's probably a low risk change that is worth examining.

[Davers]

Roland, on 17 April 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Ah, I think you misread my post. I'm actually suggesting BUFFING the Large Pulse Lasers, increasing their DAMAGE to 12.

Yes, yes I did.

Roland, on 17 April 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

They are certainly not trash tier weapons, but the issue you will find right now is that they are exactly as efficient as PPC's currently.

That means that at long range, the PPC's will ruin your mech without you being able to touch them.
At short range (until you are literally touching him at 90m) you are merely EQUAL to the PPC boat in terms of combat efficiency.. and really, even at optimal ML range, he's more efficient since he's dumping all of his damage on single panels.

Again, I'm not suggesting a crazy change here. I'm merely suggesting we remove an earlier nerf, which was made to deal with factors that no longer exist.

Well, the factors were that Mlasers were more efficient than everything else. So it paid to use them and add more heat sinks. when DHS came in just using Mlasers made your mech too efficient, so it was worth building up heat to get the extra range and damage. But you know all this.

I guess the question is whether or not lowering the heat will make mechs that rely on them a little too good? Those mechs being lights and mediums (which I believe could use a little love).

[Roland]

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Well, the factors were that Mlasers were more efficient than everything else. So it paid to use them and add more heat sinks. when DHS came in just using Mlasers made your mech too efficient, so it was worth building up heat to get the extra range and damage. But you know all this.

Well, that's the thing.. the ML's were super efficienct because they were super effective at short range combat, and short range combat was the only thing that existed.

Now that we actually have long range combat, it's OK to let medium lasers dominate short range combat. It allows them to fill a specific niche, whereas previously that niche was the entirety of the game.

Generally, this will benefit lighter mechs more than other mechs, but I think that given the fact that their lag shield has been effectively removed, we don't need to worry about light mechs being as dominant as they were earlier in beta, which is another reason why we may want to reset the light energy weapons and see how things work out with the original stats on the medium and small lasers.

[aniviron]

Davers, on 17 April 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Yes, yes I did.



Well, the factors were that Mlasers were more efficient than everything else. So it paid to use them and add more heat sinks. when DHS came in just using Mlasers made your mech too efficient, so it was worth building up heat to get the extra range and damage. But you know all this.

I guess the question is whether or not lowering the heat will make mechs that rely on them a little too good? Those mechs being lights and mediums (which I believe could use a little love).

I'd like to see something done to make lights and mediums viable again. Yes, I know that people will reply to this post and go, "l2p noob, I get 5034873 damage per match in my cicada!" Great job, ace pilot. In the mean time, the average player cannot compete in the lower weight classes, which is why heavies and assaults make up almost 70% of all mechs on the field (pre ballistic state rewind and highlander, I would guess the numbers are even higher now.)

On the one hand, I do think lowering heat on small energy weapons would give much-needed aid to the 50-tons-and-lower bracket. I do worry that instead of diversifying weapon play styles, it will just lead to everything smaller than a hunchback boating lasers. I know my HBK-4P is practically drooling at the thought of 3 heat mlas.

Overall, a very thoughtful post with some good ideas, OP. I would agree that the way to fix the metagame of ppc/gauss is not a nerf to either weapon, but a change to things that would make that combo less appealing or effective.

Edited by aniviron, 17 April 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Davers]

Honestly, after thinking about it I think it's worth looking into. The heavier mechs would still be better off using the heavier weapons, but medium and smaller mechs would be able to take advantage of increased 'dps weapons'.

[Roland]

Davers, on 17 April 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Honestly, after thinking about it I think it's worth looking into. The heavier mechs would still be better off using the heavier weapons, but medium and smaller mechs would be able to take advantage of increased 'dps weapons'.

Exactly.

Back in closed beta, the large weapons were basically useless (with the possible exception of the gauss). However, since this isn't the case any more, restoring the light energy weapons will not automatically outclass the large weapons like they did earlier in beta.

[Davers]

Maybe we should start arguing and calling each other name so this thread gets some attention? All this civil discourse is killing the thread count!

[Roland]

OH YEAH?
SO'S UR FACE.

[Davers]

Honestly, a real discussion about weapon balance that doesn't include statements like "LRMs are coward weapons" and it needs to get bumped to stay on the front page. C'mon people! What do you think? Lowered heat for medium lasers! Does it scare you? Will your Jenners be coring Atlases in 3 seconds? Will there be threads like "Hunchback 4H is the perfect blend of energy and ballistic weapons! It is SO GOOD NOW!"?

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Somebody needs to post a mostly-unrelated meme picture while trying to be funny and failing.

I would not object to the small energy weapons getting a bit of a buff back. The main problem I see with it is the standard Large Laser, which is currently an excellent baseline for energy weapon performance. The golden point of balance is most likely 2 mediums to match the damage and heat of one large. As things stand now, the mediums have a slight damage advantage and a slight heat disadvantage. Reducing the heat by one point would give them an advantage in both areas.

There is a precedent for partial heat. The LPL has 7.3, which works great. If the ML had its heat reduced to 3.5 it'd be pretty much right at the sweet spot compared to the LL.

The SL could stand to have its heat reduced a bit more, maybe all the way back to pre-nerf levels (1.5 might be better), and the SPL has no reason to exist currently. It should probably get a 1 point damage buff (it'd still be lower than the ML) in addition to being 1 point of heat hotter than the standard SL, whatever that gets adjusted to.

The MPL should stay 1 point of heat hotter than the ML, so 4.5 might be a good number.

The LPL can stay where it is, though I would like to see a bit of a damage boost for it since range is so valuable in the heavier weapon categories and the LPL sacrifices a lot of range.

The PPC and erPPC should get a slight increase to their cooldown timer (maybe a half a second).

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 17 April 2013 - 06:51 PM.

[HereticalPsycho]

aniviron, on 17 April 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Overall, a very thoughtful post with some good ideas, OP. I would agree that the way to fix the metagame of ppc/gauss is not a nerf to either weapon, but a change to things that would make that combo less appealing or effective.

I'd agree, fantastically written, well presented and overall a very nice thread. From what I read its not about making ppc/guass builds less appealing its about providing an alternative for those who enjoy close up work, not that it matters at all though. Well done op I wouldn't object to having this implemented at least as a test for a week

Edited by HereticalPsycho, 17 April 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[shintakie]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 17 April 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

Somebody needs to post a mostly-unrelated meme picture while trying to be funny and failing.

I would not object to the small energy weapons getting a bit of a buff back. The main problem I see with it is the standard Large Laser, which is currently an excellent baseline for energy weapon performance. The golden point of balance is most likely 2 mediums to match the damage and heat of one large. As things stand now, the mediums have a slight damage advantage and a slight heat disadvantage. Reducing the heat by one point would give them an advantage in both areas.

There is a precedent for partial heat. The LPL has 7.3, which works great. If the ML had its heat reduced to 3.5 it'd be pretty much right at the sweet spot compared to the LL.

The SL could stand to have its heat reduced a bit more, maybe all the way back to pre-nerf levels (1.5 might be better), and the SPL has no reason to exist currently. It should probably get a 1 point damage buff (it'd still be lower than the ML) in addition to being 1 point of heat hotter than the standard SL, whatever that gets adjusted to.

The MPL should stay 1 point of heat hotter than the ML, so 4.5 might be a good number.

The LPL can stay where it is, though I would like to see a bit of a damage boost for it since range is so valuable in the heavier weapon categories and the LPL sacrifices a lot of range.

The PPC and erPPC should get a slight increase to their cooldown timer (maybe a half a second).

But you can't raise damage because the TT purists will cry.

Or somethin like that.

SPL damage +1 would be amazin actually. I ran a 6 SPL Cicada for a while that worked wonders any time I launched into River City as long as I stayed in the buildins. Unfortunately any other time the SPL was either outclassed by the SL because it has no damage bonus over the SL or the outclassed by the ML because its better in every other way except beam time.

I'd be curious to see how all this would play out though. You'd have to fight against player (and probably developer at this point) perception. People were used to ML, SL, and MPL boats dominatin the game for the longest time. It'd take quite a bit of effort to remind people that the game isn't like it was when that happened.

[Roland]

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The main problem I see with it is the standard Large Laser, which is currently an excellent baseline for energy weapon performance. The golden point of balance is most likely 2 mediums to match the damage and heat of one large. As things stand now, the mediums have a slight damage advantage and a slight heat disadvantage. Reducing the heat by one point would give them an advantage in both areas.

Ah, but the LL has an advantage in another area, and that is range.
In the past, this advantage was mostly useless... because they weren't accurate enough to actually do any work at range... and most fights took place in close combat anyway. However, since the current meta had changed so much, due to improvements in the netcode, a lot more fights take place at long range, making weapons that have range actually useful in their own right.

Even if the Medium laser was buffed up, it would not automatically replace the LL at this point, because many mechs would continue to use LL's for their range and because they are hardpoint constrained... generally, larger mechs.

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I'd be curious to see how all this would play out though. You'd have to fight against player (and probably developer at this point) perception. People were used to ML, SL, and MPL boats dominatin the game for the longest time. It'd take quite a bit of effort to remind people that the game isn't like it was when that happened.

Perhaps, but I haven't seen a whole lot of folks freaking out against this idea so far. It's fairly muted compared to a lot of the balance arguments taking place. It doesn't involve nerfing anything, and while not suggesting improvements to weapons like SRM's, it would have the effect of improving most of the SRM carrying mechs (although not the A1, which I think is actually a good direciton for us to move in).

[Mister Blastman]

Bump.

Apparently people like longrangewarrior online.

Wait, we already played that--it was called Mechwarrior 4.

Guys, we need diversity in this game and finally--long range weapons are useful. The problem is, they're too useful. To the point, as the OP points out, that they overshadow short range weapons. Short range weapons need some love to remain competitive.

Rolling back the nerfs on them PLUS rolling back the speed caps/engine caps... will help this game tremendously right now. The snipers need not worry--if their aim is still true they'll be able to poke hole in whatever they want.

[Tennex]

lasers are fine.they might not feel like they do as much damage as the ballistics. but if you use them right and hold it for the whole duration over an enemy they are pretty damn good.

only the small laser needs a buff.

Edited by Tennex, 18 April 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[Roland]

Tennex, on 18 April 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

lasers are fine.they might not feel like they do as much damage as the ballistics. but if you use them right and hold it for the whole duration over an enemy they are pretty damn good.

only the small laser needs a buff.

I suspect that you are mistaken here.

It's worth simply restoring them to their original values, to see how it works.

As it stands, they are certainly functional, but the issue is that even within their optimal range, they are no more efficient than PPC's. This is problematic.

Short range weapons need to be more efficient than their long range counterparts, because it's likely that they are going to take damage prior to the short range engagement. Once the range has closed to knife-fighting range, the short range weapons should win. This is what balances short range weapons against long range weapons.