133 replies to this topic

[Loler skates]

Roadbeer, on 20 April 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

My bad, must have been someone else with the MG spider sig pic.

meh there are a lot of people with that at this point.

I can't fault you for that mistake considering that reason.

[Mr 144]

Jman5, on 20 April 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Here would be my thinking:
1. Notice the 4 sniper builds lumbering toward the usual defensive points.
2. Get spider and jenner to flank toward base cap through alternate avenue.
3. use remaining 3d snipers to keep eyes on force and distract.
4. Cap win or at the very least pull enough off the front for a direct assault.

Mobility is the great weakness of these jump sniper compositions. Not abusing this fact would be like bringing a sniper build to brawl.

OK Jman...but I was looking for what builds to face this 'team',,,you don't have to have spiders etc...The 3Ds are 'average' speed, and everyone build I've seen and used for the Highlanders use the max 325 (either XL or Std.). While definately lumbering...they are of relatively equal speed to any other assault on your own team (58-64kph depending on tweak)...also with only 2 jump jets devoted, almost any normal terrain obstacles are overcome....so mobility is not something you really have to play with. The 2 heavies still could have a speed advantage, but not overwhelmingly so. The lights...whichever they may be, are equal (ish).

The only 2 assualts that have the mobility are the PB and 9M...which are aslo barn sized target, but it would still be a fair gamble and an interseting tactic.

Alpine Radio Tower is just ugggg for an example...pick another...lol.

Winning by Cap is valid, I'm not one of those....but distract and cap being IMO best (fun-factor) used as a last resort or back-up plan, and not your sole defense to sniping drops. Especially because with a 4,2,0,2...mobility is not overtly given to either team.....range however is.

Probably the best 'brawler' build I've come up with using all the listed common sense tactics is the Atlas RS...ignoring gimpy missile entirely and using 4xLL+AC/20...endo...std 340...and 17 DHS..runs hot...requires coolshots (both)...has enough range to engage in the push...can out alpha the snipers...equal speed with superior range of motion (arms)...etc etc...

Unfortunately people are not running good 'brawling' builds anymore, which presses my point. SRMs are weak...there is no doubt on that. They are made to work simply because hardpoint dictate an increase in firepower over min/maxed ballistic and energy slots can only be accomplished by their use. This unfortunately does not give any advantage to closing the distance...or on the opposite end LRMs...these are now niche weapons used to 'fill out' a build.

I have tried and used many different builds since the missile nerf, and without fail (stat tracking) Streaks are superior in every single way to SRM6s...4xSSRMs on a highlander > 4xSRM6s...available tonnage/heat used for ballistic/energy upgrades...The Jager -A is practically useless using SRMs in place of Streaks...even my Atlas's have reverted to Streaks...something I despise, yet perform better...

/rant over...lol

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 20 April 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Just spent all afternoon base-capping against sniping teams on everything from Alpine to River City. Most enjoyable.

[Wintersdark]

Yeah, capping works vs. sniping teams, but that has it's own drawbacks - and a sniping team can effectively defend vs. base capping by being up high - a sniper can lay a slow/stationary/predictably moving light low very, very quickly, and lights capping bases are nearly always one of the three.

It's not that sniper teams are the best and undefeatable, just that they are currently more effective than anything else.

It's just a ****** meta is all, your options are to join them and snipe, or just basecap. Blah.

[Toltecher]

Mr 144, on 20 April 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

This type of response would have been fine a week ago...but with class-matching back in-game...both teams have equal class distribution. If you devote a medium to an assault...your teams assault must win vs the enemy medium...pyric [sic] victory.

I've ran the brawler Highlanders, but SRMs are just far to week [sic] atm to counter a highlander sniper. Highlanders make poor brawlers in general, as they are the same speed as an atlas (if not slower)...have less armor...and less firepower.

My overall point is...which is being re-enforced with no heavy/assault counter to themselves...is if you currently run an assault (and to a lesser extent heavy)...it better be a sniper, because a brawler assault cannot counter a sniper assault...the weapons to do so simply do not exist, and range has no downside to this class. There's only so many hardpoints...and with the available tonnage, sniping weapons are best right now..

Mr 144

Firstly:
"- Added ability to tune weight class and Elo matching thresholds without needing to bring the servers down." - Patch Notes 4/16/2013
Both teams are not guaranteed equal class distribution as you say they are. Weight class matching doesn't seem to have absolute precedence over Elo as you suggest it does; I've already seen evidence of that in recent PUG matches and the patch notes reinforce that.

Secondly:
The OP suggests one possibility to counter sniper-centric teams. Learn each others' strengths and weaknesses, adapt, and apply.
There are plenty of posts in this thread that provide suggestions for non-sniper-based counters to snipers. Why do these people make these suggestions? I can only assume because it's a working solution for them or people just want to help and give an idea of how to counter snipers since a lot of posts in this thread suggest that there aren't.
If non-sniper builds don't work for someone to counter a sniper, then by all means that person should stick with being a sniper to counter a sniper. If one wants a way to counter a sniper without being a sniper, then one should try suggested alternatives.
If one doesn't agree or doesn't find success with the community's varying suggestions, I suggest try harder if one actually wants a palatable idea that's alternative to one's own current theory.

I won't make any further comment about Highlanders; I gave my intended opinion/suggestion on them and am not here to argue. As for the ideas of weapon superiority, I've had equal success and failure in all weapon types (and chassis) in this game since my inclusion to closed Beta back in May 2012 and all the changes to weapons/mechs since then have had little impact on me; I still find ways to make do with everything in this game, most of which have come from the community.

The point to a debate is to get all sides to try the other's ideas, not to prove a point. Once it's about proving a point, it's just an argument for the sake of arguing.

[Loler skates]

Toltecher, on 20 April 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Firstly:
"- Added ability to tune weight class and Elo matching thresholds without needing to bring the servers down." - Patch Notes 4/16/2013
Both teams are not guaranteed equal class distribution as you say they are. Weight class matching doesn't seem to have absolute precedence over Elo as you suggest it does; I've already seen evidence of that in recent PUG matches and the patch notes reinforce that.

Secondly:
The OP suggests one possibility to counter sniper-centric teams. Learn each others' strengths and weaknesses, adapt, and apply.
There are plenty of posts in this thread that provide suggestions for non-sniper-based counters to snipers. Why do these people make these suggestions? I can only assume because it's a working solution for them or people just want to help and give an idea of how to counter snipers since a lot of posts in this thread suggest that there aren't.
If non-sniper builds don't work for someone to counter a sniper, then by all means that person should stick with being a sniper to counter a sniper. If one wants a way to counter a sniper without being a sniper, then one should try suggested alternatives.
If one doesn't agree or doesn't find success with the community's varying suggestions, I suggest try harder if one actually wants a palatable idea that's alternative to one's own current theory.

I won't make any further comment about Highlanders; I gave my intended opinion/suggestion on them and am not here to argue. As for the ideas of weapon superiority, I've had equal success and failure in all weapon types (and chassis) in this game since my inclusion to closed Beta back in May 2012 and all the changes to weapons/mechs since then have had little impact on me; I still find ways to make do with everything in this game, most of which have come from the community.

The point to a debate is to get all sides to try the other's ideas, not to prove a point. Once it's about proving a point, it's just an argument for the sake of arguing.

I think the problem is that at the high end level of play with ppcs and guass.

Is that you don't have rock paper scissors with skill at using the rock scissor or paper being the ultimate arbiter.

It's rock vs paper vs SHOTGUN TO THE FACE.

Sniping in general is at the point where it takes a very large skill disparity for the sniper to actually lose at high level of play.

[Mr 144]

Toltecher, on 20 April 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Firstly:
"- Added ability to tune weight class and Elo matching thresholds without needing to bring the servers down." - Patch Notes 4/16/2013
Both teams are not guaranteed equal class distribution as you say they are. Weight class matching doesn't seem to have absolute precedence over Elo as you suggest it does; I've already seen evidence of that in recent PUG matches and the patch notes reinforce that.

Secondly:
The OP suggests one possibility to counter sniper-centric teams....

snip...

Class balancing is tuned close enough to make it a metric for concern.

I disagree that the OP has made any valid counters to sniper-centric teams. A whole lot of rhetoric without details does not make a tactic valid. I'm specifically showing why closing the distance using terrain is not a superior tactic to sniper teams, as they are equally dangerous at those ranges to any brawler build. The only thing closing the distance does is remove their overwhelming range superiority...and reducing it to simple pinpoint-alpha superiority.

Yes, I'm here to argue...that's what threads like these are for. I think I'm fair in my questioning, and have not shown any disrespect to anyones position. In this thread alone, I have 2 clan-mates...one of which agrees...the other who disagrees. I don't like pop-tart snipers, but do not feel they are OP. I do feel that currently there is no superiority at any range to running a brawler build....which is my point. Brawlers should be the counter...feared if they can use successful tactics to remove the range advantage of sniping weapons. This is simply not the case currently given hardpoint restrictions and current weapon superiority.

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 20 April 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Loler skates, on 20 April 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Sniping in general is at the point where it takes a very large skill disparity for the sniper to actually lose at high level of play.

Yeah, that really sums it up nicely.

[Sephlock]

LordBraxton, on 20 April 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Hey genius!

Whats the counter to

snipers who use teamwork?

[RynCage]

I played this game before, it was called Mechwarrior 4, But i cant even say that. MWO is worse than Mechwarrior 4 at this point. At least MW4 had more game modes, mechs, and less bugs.
If this game ever goes back to being somthing interesting i might start playing again.

P.S @ Mr144: you pretty much tell it how it is. The "counter" to poptarting that should exist, doesnt.
Very well written posts also. Good job.

Edited by RynCage, 20 April 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[Novakaine]

Hey! Quit stealin me post ya post thief!
But you are absolutly correct.

[Loler skates]

RynCage, on 20 April 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

I played this game before, it was called Mechwarrior 4, But i cant even say that. MWO is worse than Mechwarrior 4 at this point. At least MW4 had more game modes, mechs, and less bugs.
If this game ever goes back to being somthing interesting i might start playing again.

P.S @ Mr144: you pretty much tell it how it is. The "counter" to poptarting that should exist, doesnt.
Very well written posts also. Good job.

At least in MW4 there was no ballistics state rewind so if you jinked and jerked there was a semi decent chance the enemy would miss (I forget if ppcs and guass were hitscan in mw4 it's be a hella long time)

[Cabusha]

I have to say, good read and agree with the sentiment. Tooany times I see guys playing to the snipers' strengths and get smashed in doing so.

While I do think some tweaks are needed for the jump sniping mechanic, fighting on your terms will go a long way to mitigate the issue.

I have to say, good read and agree with the sentiment. Tooany times I see guys playing to the snipers' strengths and get smashed in doing so.

While I do think some tweaks are needed for the jump sniping mechanic, fighting on your terms will go a long way to mitigate the issue.

[Teralitha]

LexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

So what you're saying is that sniping is the end all be all. A well balanced team will always have an advantage. A team of snipers simply all share the same weaknesses.

8 Jenners all on their base game over. Snipers go awhat???

[Loler skates]

Teralitha, on 20 April 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

8 Jenners all on their base game over. Snipers go awhat???

Correct positioning on snipers part and in most maps they can shoot the jenners on base cap... Now given those are light mechs one decent alpha to the rear CT is an instant kill.

[Mystere]

Roadbeer, on 20 April 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Darned it! Where's my RPG when I need one?

Edited by Mystere, 20 April 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

hi guys whats going on in this thread

[Zakie Chan]

Op must be the same person who types "Stick together" at the start of a match...

Ive only played a few thousand matches since closed beta, but usually those that offer the advice are the biggest clowns.

[Mr 144]

Teralitha, on 20 April 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

8 Jenners all on their base game over. Snipers go awhat???

Yep...full circle...the only way of defeating is avoidance due to class matchmaking manipulation. This is the 3rd time this has come around in the past year. Every example so far is to use a different weight class...meaning 1/2 the available classes are devoted to snipers as the optimal build.

Beginning to see my point on ECM now Tera? Not really a factor anymore now is it? My sniper Pug Drop Scenario doesn't sport any ECM...so show me how OP it is in today's game

Mr 144

[Loler skates]

Mr 144, on 20 April 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

Yep...full circle...the only way of defeating is avoidance due to class matchmaking manipulation. This is the 3rd time this has come around in the past year. Every example so far is to use a different weight class...meaning 1/2 the available classes are devoted to snipers as the optimal build.

Beginning to see my point on ECM now Tera? Not really a factor anymore now is it? My sniper Pug Drop Scenario doesn't sport any ECM...so show me how OP it is in today's game

Mr 144

no need to nerf ECM, just make missiles so useless no one ever needs ecm again!

Pgi wins the argument!

Edited by Loler skates, 20 April 2013 - 07:26 PM.