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Omg, I Just Found The Counter To The Sniper Builds.


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#81 Loler skates

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:38 PM

View PostHedonism Robot, on 20 April 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

The other day I saw a jump sniper so I went up behind him in my spider-6-mg and pulled the trigger. The machine gun bullets tore through the air and sparks went everywhere. His back went immediately red then, boom, gone! I then saw two atlas coming up on me, they fired their PPC's but I torso twisted dodging one of them but losing 3 mgs in the proccess. That is when the trap was sprung, my friend in a jenner-3-second ran right behind both of them and they exploded to his small lasers. We then went on to cap the base!


9/10

I fixed a small error but apart from that it was a delightful master piece to read.

I salute you good sir.

View PostLexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

LRMs are an excellent deterrent. The point is to force snipers out of position or back behind cover so your team can get in close. In addition to punishing them when they actually leave cover to advance. [size=4]
If his lights are providing ECM cover, they aren't guarding the base. If they leave to prevent the cap they aren't providing ECM cover.


How are lrms an excellent deterent.

They barely tickle right now.

It's like some one firing machine guns at you only they have a minimum range where they do nothing at all.
Posted Image

man dem 0.7 damage lurms shure are scary.

especially when im behind cover and they splash on a wall...

#82 Xandergod

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:42 PM

View PostLoler skates, on 20 April 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:


9/10

I fixed a small error but apart from that it was a delightful master piece to read.

I salute you good sir.



How are lrms an excellent deterent.

They barely tickle right now.

It's like some one firing machine guns at you only they have a minimum range where they do nothing at all.
Posted Image

man dem 0.7 damage lurms shure are scary.

especially when im behind cover and they splash on a wall...

When you're behind cover, you're not sniping anyone.

#83 MischiefSC

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:44 PM

View PostVassago Rain, on 20 April 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:


Mechs are really slow, DPS isn't relevant, you have no short-ranged options right now, and LRMs are beyond useless.


Bet me?

The problem is that competitive play seems to be getting really, really inbred. Everyone is doing the same thing and so everyone else does the same thing to stop it. It's a self-fulfilling policy. I've been chewing through poptarts with LPLs and SSRMs or with ERPPCs and LRMs. It works shockingly well but it takes a bit of work. You just have to step out of the comfort zone and try some new ideas until you find one that clicks well.

But they do, you just don't use them the same way you used to.

#84 BR0WN_H0RN3T

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:46 PM

View PostLexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Still with the condescending tone, I see.
A team of snipers doesn't share all the weaknesses of one the is mixed class. As pointed out in my "stupid" post. Is it possible to have civilized conversation on the internet?


Unfortunately u can't have a civilized ANYTHING with morons. Fair post, but I think the snipers already countered it.

#85 jeffsw6

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:46 PM

View PostLexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

LRMs are an excellent deterrent. The point is to force snipers out of position or back behind cover so your team can get in close. In addition to punishing them when they actually leave cover to advance. [size=4]
If his lights are providing ECM cover, they aren't guarding the base. If they leave to prevent the cap they aren't providing ECM cover.

Do you know how many LRMs it takes to kill an assault mech when you've got 3 Stalkers and an Atlas, standing in the open and letting the LRMs shower down upon them?

Here's a hint: THEY WON'T EVER KILL THEM. The ******* Atlas has ECM and you can't even fire LRMs at that 4-man!

Please proceed to story time where you tell us about that time in band camp where you had an SDR-5D and used your ninja-like stealth to sneak up to an AS7-D-DC and three Stalkers, jam their ECM, tag the enemy, and maintain your position long enough for LRM60 catapults on your team to kill them.

Then tell me how many times that's worked for you when your team was 7 randoms against that sniper 4-man.

#86 Wintersdark

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:49 PM

View PostLexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

That's a match balance issue.




1. By encuraging a sniper to miss you are making it harder for them to hit you. The lessens your overall damage and increases your chance to close distance.
Errr, maybe it's different Elo brackets, maybe just hope, but in my experience this doesn't play out well.

I'm a decent shot, though not outstanding. That said, generally speaking, I don't miss often at all - and when I do, I'm not firing a full alpha (I'll fire a limited shot for on the shots I'm not confident on, to not cause heat issues). But, I know if I have a viable shot, I *WILL* hit. I assume this to be true of my opponents, and it typically is.

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2. Most snipers are not as dangerous up close. Due to the fact heat becomes an increasing issue the closer you get to a sniper. Sure the shot it's self is going to do the same amount of damage, but hitting a target moving a 90kph at a great distance is much easier then at close range. This is in addition to the fact that the most popular sniper builds don't move very quickly. I circle assault is my heavy and it don't even move very fast.
What? Hitting a target close is just as easy as far. At 90kph, I will absolutely NOT EVER miss you up close. Never. It can be tough if your target is a tiny light and tearing *** at 150kph, but a larger mech or below 100kph, my ERPPC's and Gauss are going to hit you.

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3. My aim doesn't have to be much better. Even though i'm moving while firing. The fact of the mater is that it is easy to hit a stationary target. As most of these snipers are. Even the pop-phracts jump in the same locations with the same timing.
This has to be an Elo issue. I'm never a stationary target, nor are the snipers I face. They don't jump in the same place at the same frequency. They do not stand still.

You can not rely on your opposition being bad, because with Elo, if you're not bad, your opponents won't be either.

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4. Your suggestion that SRMs would help is invalidated by the points you made. You claim you can't get close, I argue, that isn't necessarily true.

You CAN get close, but when you get close you're badly hurt. SRM's as they were help in that case because they were *very* powerful up close, which offset the fact that you were beat to **** once you got there. Now, they just don't have the same threat. You take tons of damage approaching, then you have to brawl with someone who's still able to dish 35+ damage pinpoint strikes.

Before we had big maps, SRM's ruled the roost, because getting and keeping range was extremely difficult at best on the tiny maps. With Alpine, then Tourmaline, we got maps where SRM's short range severely limited them and offset the fact that they did absurd damage up close. A1 Splatcats suddenly weren't nearly as beastly.

The missile nerf, though, destroyed the short range brawlers' advantage. Now, there's nothing left that's really threatening up close. The AC/20 is pretty beast, but few smaller mechs can even mount one, and if they do that's effectively all they have. It's woefully inadequate when facing 4 PPC's or what have you.

View PostLexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

When you're behind cover, you're not sniping anyone.


Pop out, fire.

"Incoming Missiles!"

In cover, cooling down, weapons cycling

*crump* missiles hit cover.

Repeat.

LRM's are terrible anti-sniper weapons. Terrible. Even if they do lots of damage, the nature of sniper play (jump or not) is to only be out of cover long enough to fire. Sniper projectiles travel 20x faster than LRM's do, so the sniper hits you and is back in cover loooooooong before the LRM'*****. If the sniper is in cover, you can't fire at him as you lose your missile lock.

#87 SirBrokenSword

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:51 PM

I think one of the main problems with teh sniper builds right now is that people are expecting to beat them. It seem s most people forget that you don't have to kill the enemy to win the game.

The last game I played was conquest and the game ended with my team as winners with only myself in a jenner and a lance mate in a spider. all other 6 of our team were dead.

7 of the enemy remained. but we easily beat them on points. I had dealt 5 damage and my spider partner had dealt 0.

#88 Wintersdark

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:53 PM

View PostLoler skates, on 20 April 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:


9/10

I fixed a small error but apart from that it was a delightful master piece to read.

I salute you good sir.



How are lrms an excellent deterent.

They barely tickle right now.

It's like some one firing machine guns at you only they have a minimum range where they do nothing at all.
Posted Image

man dem 0.7 damage lurms shure are scary.

especially when im behind cover and they splash on a wall...

heh yeah, this.

You can take a few volleys of LRM's with no significant damage should you need to, but generally speaking there's no need. The mechanics behind the weapons and play styles mean LRM's are useless against snipers and cannot even keep them in cover.

And that's assuming the snipers don't have ECM nearby. If they do... lol.

View PostSirBrokenSword, on 20 April 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

I think one of the main problems with teh sniper builds right now is that people are expecting to beat them. It seem s most people forget that you don't have to kill the enemy to win the game.

The last game I played was conquest and the game ended with my team as winners with only myself in a jenner and a lance mate in a spider. all other 6 of our team were dead.

7 of the enemy remained. but we easily beat them on points. I had dealt 5 damage and my spider partner had dealt 0.

heh I've been alternating between my HGN's(levelling them, not bothering with the tourny) and my 104.9 (well, 103.3 right now) KPH Flame and my Spider. I use both of those specifically to cap, and troll the hell out of teams of assault-snipers. It gives me the giggles and the teehee's both.

#89 Loler skates

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:55 PM

View PostLexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

When you're behind cover, you're not sniping anyone.


*fires jump jets*

*Is above cover*

*hits you in the CT with two PEEPS and a gauss*

*drops behind cover*

Posted Image

#90 Xandergod

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:55 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 20 April 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Errr, maybe it's different Elo brackets, maybe just hope, but in my experience this doesn't play out well.

I'm a decent shot, though not outstanding. That said, generally speaking, I don't miss often at all - and when I do, I'm not firing a full alpha (I'll fire a limited shot for on the shots I'm not confident on, to not cause heat issues). But, I know if I have a viable shot, I *WILL* hit. I assume this to be true of my opponents, and it typically is.

What? Hitting a target close is just as easy as far. At 90kph, I will absolutely NOT EVER miss you up close. Never. It can be tough if your target is a tiny light and tearing *** at 150kph, but a larger mech or below 100kph, my ERPPC's and Gauss are going to hit you.

This has to be an Elo issue. I'm never a stationary target, nor are the snipers I face. They don't jump in the same place at the same frequency. They do not stand still.

You can not rely on your opposition being bad, because with Elo, if you're not bad, your opponents won't be either.


You CAN get close, but when you get close you're badly hurt. SRM's as they were help in that case because they were *very* powerful up close, which offset the fact that you were beat to **** once you got there. Now, they just don't have the same threat. You take tons of damage approaching, then you have to brawl with someone who's still able to dish 35+ damage pinpoint strikes.

Before we had big maps, SRM's ruled the roost, because getting and keeping range was extremely difficult at best on the tiny maps. With Alpine, then Tourmaline, we got maps where SRM's short range severely limited them and offset the fact that they did absurd damage up close. A1 Splatcats suddenly weren't nearly as beastly.

The missile nerf, though, destroyed the short range brawlers' advantage. Now, there's nothing left that's really threatening up close. The AC/20 is pretty beast, but few smaller mechs can even mount one, and if they do that's effectively all they have. It's woefully inadequate when facing 4 PPC's or what have you.



Pop out, fire.

"Incoming Missiles!"

In cover, cooling down, weapons cycling

*crump* missiles hit cover.

Repeat.

LRM's are terrible anti-sniper weapons. Terrible. Even if they do lots of damage, the nature of sniper play (jump or not) is to only be out of cover long enough to fire. Sniper projectiles travel 20x faster than LRM's do, so the sniper hits you and is back in cover loooooooong before the LRM'*****. If the sniper is in cover, you can't fire at him as you lose your missile lock.

I give up. Maybe it is an ELO thing. I guess I'm just not good enough to see snipers one shotting entire teams with near 100% accuracy. Well if ELO works they way it should. Soon, it'll just be full teams of snipers in thier own skill range. One shotting each other.

#91 Loler skates

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

View PostLexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

I give up. Maybe it is an ELO thing. I guess I'm just not good enough to see snipers one shotting entire teams with near 100% accuracy. Well if ELO works they way it should. Soon, it'll just be full teams of snipers in thier own skill range. One shotting each other.


yea but the jump snipers hate it just as much, because it's terribly boring when there is no variety but high end play is like that.

Bare in mind the people saying it's like this don't necessarily want it to be like this.

I my self prefer to the short range brawl style of play mixed with speed, I always have in any game i've played. Doesn't mean i'm not capable of playing the long range sniper as well

#92 Stoicblitzer

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:05 PM

View Postjeffsw6, on 20 April 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Please proceed to story time where you tell us about that time in band camp where you had an SDR-5D and used your ninja-like stealth to sneak up to an AS7-D-DC and three Stalkers, jam their ECM, tag the enemy, and maintain your position long enough for LRM60 catapults on your team to kill them.

Then tell me how many times that's worked for you when your team was 7 randoms against that sniper 4-man.

anecdotes are great. :P

#93 Vassago Rain

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:09 PM

View PostLexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

When you're behind cover, you're not sniping anyone.


Ever heard of this ridging and jump sniping that's all the rage right now, because it doesn't impose the usual sniper weaknesses?

#94 Vassago Rain

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:13 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 20 April 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:


Bet me?

The problem is that competitive play seems to be getting really, really inbred. Everyone is doing the same thing and so everyone else does the same thing to stop it. It's a self-fulfilling policy. I've been chewing through poptarts with LPLs and SSRMs or with ERPPCs and LRMs. It works shockingly well but it takes a bit of work. You just have to step out of the comfort zone and try some new ideas until you find one that clicks well.

But they do, you just don't use them the same way you used to.


When the effort needed to achieve a given result greatly outweighs the alternatives, it's no longer an option. No one uses counter-strike shotguns, even when styling.

#95 Wintersdark

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:14 PM

View PostLexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

I give up. Maybe it is an ELO thing. I guess I'm just not good enough to see snipers one shotting entire teams with near 100% accuracy. Well if ELO works they way it should. Soon, it'll just be full teams of snipers in thier own skill range. One shotting each other.

I'm being completely serious here, and not all forum ranty or braggy. I'm definitely not trying to say that you're just bad and thus wrong.

This is how the game is, at least for me. It's not one shotting - though that does happen, particularly against the poor Catapults whose cockpits are virtually impossible to miss from an elevated angle - but it IS two/three shotting.

Each sniper isn't laying waste to the enemy team, but the non-snipers in the battles are largely irrelevant. If a mech is exposed, even briefly, it's going to be hit by 3-4 snipers firing within a couple seconds of each other. 3 snipers, with minimum Sniper Damage of 35, all hitting the target's torso are going to do very substantial damage to that target. The non-snipers can't do significant damage until they get close, and if they do get close to the snipers, they must be in line of sight of a couple of them. So, they run behind one sniper, shoot him in the back, and themselves eat another hundred damage in the process.

With HSR, reasonably skilled people firing center mass just don't miss. It's really, really rare. So every 4-5 seconds, they're hammering targets for 35-60 odd damage each. Even if they aren't always hitting the same torso section, they're doing tremendous damage each time.

It's really not a lot of fun, though it is effective, and that's why there's so many of them.


Realistically, what happens is the brawlers are badly damaged before getting close to the snipers - generally missing torso armor. They hit the relatively undamaged snipers, do some armor damage, and when up close (within a couple hundred meters) the snipers easily pinpoint damaged torso sections. This instantly disarms the brawlers or removes enough weapons so they are no longer a significant threat.

In almost every battle with my Strawberry Poptart, Brawler assaults and heavies get close to me. I've always seen them coming (yay, situational awareness, which is easy to manage when you can pop up above the battlefield to look around) and targetted them. My Info Gathering module helps show their armor faster, and whichever torso side has taken the most damage eats a 45 point alpha the second they come into view. This virtually always removes a torso side and either destroys the mech outright (teehee! XL engine!) or removes roughly half his firepower. Either way, the resulting battle is very one-sided.

#96 Loler skates

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:15 PM

View PostVassago Rain, on 20 April 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:


When the effort needed to achieve a given result greatly outweighs the alternatives, it's no longer an option. No one uses counter-strike shotguns, even when styling.


You talking about GO?

because I totally use the boomstick in that and I'm in the top tier skill bracket for that the secret is to only use it on one map and then on only one part a map. :P

but yea for the most part you are pretty much 100% right.

#97 Wintersdark

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostLoler skates, on 20 April 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:


yea but the jump snipers hate it just as much, because it's terribly boring when there is no variety but high end play is like that.

Bare in mind the people saying it's like this don't necessarily want it to be like this.

I my self prefer to the short range brawl style of play mixed with speed, I always have in any game i've played. Doesn't mean i'm not capable of playing the long range sniper as well

This, absolutely. I'm doing it, because it works and grinds c-bills for me quickly. I do NOT want it to be a dominant play style, though it should remain a valid one. It's not a very fun meta game at all.

I *like* brawls, though I rarely play brawlers. I particularly love to play fast heavies (such as my Flame at 105kph), but I've shelved them except for when I'm feeling Cappy because a Dragon simply dies to snipers. Speed is no defense, because it's trivial to lead a 100kph heavy sized mech with an enormous CT and obviously an XL and pop him in short order.

I really want to see SRM's get sufficiently buffed to be a viable threat up close. Or anything. I want to see brawlers brawl again, because then my fast flankers have a good role, and battles are much more interesting.

#98 the huanglong

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:24 PM

Capping works. All these builds are hopeless slow and hopeless predictable.

#99 Loler skates

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:26 PM

View Postthe huanglong, on 20 April 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Capping works. All these builds are hopeless slow and hopeless predictable.


most of the maps you can snipe from base man :|

Alpine certainly has hills you can snipe the other team from and shoot cappers on your square with no problems for instance.

#100 Roadbeer

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:40 PM

View PostLoler skates, on 20 April 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:


I don't even own any consoles so I really don't know what the hell you are going on about.

BUT GREAT ATTEMPT AT CHARACTER ASSASSINATION BRO.


My bad, must have been someone else with the MG spider sig pic.





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