77 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

I was thinking the other day about the Battletech lore (or as much as I understand it) and often I wonder about what political situation would really benefit mankind in this Universe?

I often hear about how awful the Clans are (and for the most part I agree), but is for instance Warden Clan Wolf that bad vs any of the Inner Sphere houses? The Crusader Clans like Jade Falcon or Smoke Jaguar would enslave everyone (forcing them into the caste system) and dismantle the house governments under the name of the Star League. However Clan Wolf as I understand it just want to re-establish the Star League and put things back the way they were durring the golden age of the Star League.

I'm not trying to sound Pro Clan here, but with the cultist Comstar and the fact that the Inner Sphere houses are CONSTANTLY at war murdering millions through Succesion Wars, destroying technology (not just war machines but tech for medicine and food). Are they REALLY any better?

Just curious about what some of the Battletech fans think. I believe eventually Clan Wolf is reformed into a new Crusader Clan and the old Clan Wolf become Inner Sphere Mercs...I think?

Anyway, if you do think there is an actual lesser of evils, let me know. I'd be curious to see what people think. Maybe some of the houses aren't full on a**holes. LOL


P.S. I know there always needs to be war, it's a game, you need sides and conflicts to play. This is just an exercise more than anything else.

[LordBraxton]

Would you rather live in a society like America (or any western power), with free trade, some rights, but where the rich still control everything in the country? (IS)

Or live in a caste system where you are literally less of a person than the upper crust, and scrape your living in 3rd world conditions? (Clans)

Do you want to die? (WoB)

All sides like slaughtering people

Edited by LordBraxton, 17 April 2013 - 07:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

The wWarden factions wanted to "protect" the Inner Sphere from harm, even from harm that was being caused by the IS. Clan Wolf had the best handle on the Way of the Inner Sphere Politics. They came they concurred the standing military. Set a garrison force and left the day to day business to the planetary government. Less struggle and strife.

[MeiSooHaityu]

LordBraxton, on 17 April 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Would you rather live in a society like America (or any western power), with free trade, some rights, but where the rich still control everything in the country? (IS)

Or live in a caste system where you are literally less of a person than the upper crust, and scrape your living in 3rd world conditions? (Clans)

Do you want to die? (WoB)

All sides like slaughtering people

That is probably a tad over simplified. I think there are plenty of IS states ranging from Monarchys, Dictatorships, Democracy, etc...

Also, Crusader Clans are definently what you said about the Clans, but Warden Clans are a bit different. From what I understand, a Warden Clan does not want to re-shuffle life within the intersphere, but just restablish the Star League. Granted they probably would be oppresive in a way, but to the house governments themselves pertaining to how they relate to each other. They would not interfere with the way people live out there lives within the governments themselves.

[Joat]

political situations......BAH!......I go where the C-bills take me.

[Demos]

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 April 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

However Clan Wolf as I understand it just want to re-establish the Star League and put things back the way they were durring the golden age of the Star League.

PROPAGANDA!
They are just as quick dismantling established structures and enforcing their "culture".

Embrace your friendly adept @ C*. We will support humanity and enlighten all kind souls on their way to a better future.
Peace of Blake with you, Bro!

[Kommisar]

The overall need for humans to be vindicated that their ideas are right and then impose that upon others as proof will never go away. Even if they have to travel across light years at the cost of billions of whatever currency they have and billions of their own lives.

[LordBraxton]

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 April 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

That is probably a tad over simplified. I think there are plenty of IS states ranging from Monarchys, Dictatorships, Democracy, etc...

Also, Crusader Clans are definently what you said about the Clans, but Warden Clans are a bit different. From what I understand, a Warden Clan does not want to re-shuffle life within the intersphere, but just restablish the Star League. Granted they probably would be oppresive in a way, but to the house governments themselves pertaining to how they relate to each other. They would not interfere with the way people live out there lives within the governments themselves.

True, and it was way oversimplified.

But, even in a warden Clan its the trueborn who call the shots and have all the rights.

The warden clan approach to conquering planets was just a way to keep the populace settled until they can destroy the rest of the houses. If they succeeded clan life\politics would overtake the IS.

[FerretGR]

I always thought life as a citizen of the Fed Suns wouldn't be all that bad, comparatively, at least in the time of Hanse and Victor... you've got a group of people actively pursuing technological advances in all fields, not just military, through organizations like NAIS, and people whose lives and contributions are valued as opposed to the purges and whatnot in Capellan culture. Of course the real issue with any and all possible cultural choices in the BT universe is that the rest of the cultures want to bring you down.

As MeeSoHaityu points out, even the caste system of the Warden clans isn't all that bad if you take the "forever war" out of the picture.

[Zerberus]

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 April 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Just curious about what some of the Battletech fans think. I believe eventually Clan Wolf is reformed into a new Crusader Clan and the old Clan Wolf become Inner Sphere Mercs...I think?

Clan wolf eventually gets "dissolved" into Jade Falcon as Jade Wolf, at which time clan Wolf in Exile is formed by teh remaining wardens.

After that, Clan Wolf is "reformed" but remains clan wolf in name only, Wolf in Exile are the true wolves.

Quote

Anyway, if you do think there is an actual lesser of evils, let me know. I'd be curious to see what people think. Maybe some of the houses aren't full on a**holes. LOL


P.S. I know there always needs to be war, it's a game, you need sides and conflicts to play. This is just an exercise more than anything else.

We are not the lesser of 2 evils, we and our warden brothers are the only remaining champions of good in the universe, the true followers of Kerensky. The IS screwed up centuries ago and never recovered, and the crusaders are, well, annoying juveniles that tend to act like freebirths

PS: While warden clans still "obey" the caste system in basic principle, unlike crusader clans freebirths can actually amount to something, and the aversion to "giving somebody a chance" is significantly lower. Where Je Falcons and their brethren would simply enslave or annihilate you for the most part save the best of the best, we might be inclined to let you keep part of your merc unit if we see that 2 or 3 of you actually know what you`re doing.

Edited by Zerberus, 17 April 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[Mercules]

Warders generally believe that Kerenski set them apart to stay free of the conflict and protect humanity from any outside threat. Clan Wolf's part in the invasion was in many ways to counteract Jade Falcon's Crusader ways and policies. Capturing a planet meant that Jade Falcon couldn't (at least not at that time) invade it.

No, the IS houses were not any better than the clans. At least Steiner and Davion had come to a peace and united their families and territories. It was a start in the right direction but then the clan invasion came and disrupted even that. Hanse Davion died during the invasion and his wife offered to step down and give the throne to Victor Steiner-Davion who refused. He wasn't politcal but his sister Katherine was and she had her mother killed, blamed it on Victor and took over.

None of the houses were clean, they all had blood on their hands, but at least Steiner and Davion made peace and married before the clans invaded. The one thing the clans did manage to do was unite the houses against them. Somewhat.... they still were highly political and backstabbed each other at every chance.


The clans themselves fight among themselves, they just have a rigid system in place to minimalize some of the losses. Even so there are stories of clans killing off other clans totem animals and other dirty tricks among them, not just the IS.

LordBraxton, on 17 April 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Or live in a caste system where you are literally less of a person than the upper crust, and scrape your living in 3rd world conditions? (Clans)

Draconis Combine as well. (IS)

Not all clans were that bad on the workers. While True Born Warriors lead rich lives, they were also "old" at 30 and relegated to training the next generation of warriors.

[Alex Warden]

like everything in politics, the idea behind it is mostly okay, even with the warden clans... but when it comes to reality, there is something in the human soul that drives them nuts about power...

since the clans are genetically optimized, i guess there is that one thing that is also optimized within them: corruption and greed for power

as you can imagine, i write this OOC

Edited by Alex Warden, 17 April 2013 - 08:19 AM.

[Adridos]

FerretGR, on 17 April 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

I always thought life as a citizen of the Fed Suns wouldn't be all that bad, comparatively, at least in the time of Hanse and Victor... you've got a group of people actively pursuing technological advances in all fields, not just military, through organizations like NAIS, and people whose lives and contributions are valued as opposed to the purges and whatnot in Capellan culture.

Actually, they are a heavily feudal/medieval nation. A warring state with First Prince (king) leading it, having all those wars justified in some manner (because God dislikes them), has knights (MWs) in the shining armor and with a horse ('mech) and with exclusive university like NAIS (Oxford/Cambridge) which also happens to be the major pusher of technology and has a long history.

Live in the "lower" side of the fence and you don't even get basic education. Look up Davion Outback.

[FerretGR]

Yes, I'm aware, but I'm talking comparatively... we're talking about the lesser of 6 or 8 or 10 evils here.

[MrPenguin]

Bleh, politics.

[Carl Wrede]

There is only one true democracy among the IS and clans and that is the Free Rasalhague Republic.

All clans talk big about the Star League and Kerenski but they are now as far from that vision as any of the IS states.

Edited by Carl Wrede, 17 April 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[Sadistic Savior]

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 April 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

That is probably a tad over simplified. I think there are plenty of IS states ranging from Monarchys, Dictatorships, Democracy, etc...

I am unaware of any democracy in Battletech lore.

The FRR comes closest, but even they would not be considered a real democracy by our definition. If you read the lore from way back, they explained that feudal systems were more efficient over stellar differences were colonies could be isolated for long periods. You can't really maintain a democracy when the electorate is spread out so much and communications are so slow.

[Mercules]

Rome had a Democratic Republic, despite it taking very long time for information to move across the vastness of the Republic.

[Zerberus]

Carl Wrede, on 17 April 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

There is only one true democracy among the IS and clans and that is the Free Rasalhague Republic.

All clans talk big about the Star League and Kerenski but they are now as far from that vision as any of the IS states.

I hereby challenge you to a Trial of Grievance, Freebirth!

OOC: I agree 100% but still prefer to at least align myself with the underlying ideology. Muchj akin to supporting a country`s Constitution but not the government`s current direction (I hope a small RL political analogy for clarification isn`t against the rules and will gladly edit my post should that be the case.)

[ArcDemon]

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 April 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Just curious about what some of the Battletech fans think. I believe eventually Clan Wolf is reformed into a new Crusader Clan and the old Clan Wolf become Inner Sphere Mercs...I think?

Coles Notes version of the Clan invasion

Pre-Invasion
---

• Clans want to return from their self imposed exile and restore the Star League.
  
• Clans are divided between Crusaders, who think Kerensky's vision was one of the Clans 'liberating' the Inner Sphere by invading and conquering them, and the Wardens who think that they should protect the Inner Sphere in the spirit of the Star League.
  
• Ultimately a compromise is reached where a unit of the Wolf clan (Wardens) are sent into the Inner Sphere posing as mercenaries (Wolf's Dragoons) to collect information.

---


Trial of Refusal

---

• The Wolfs selectively edit reports from the Dragoons, down playing Inner Sphere unity (which could lead them to restore the Star League by themselves) like the formation of the Federated Commonwealth while exploiting events like the 4th Succession War to make it seem like the invasion can be put off.
  
• However a ComStar explorer ship (Outbound Light) accidently jumps right into Smoke Jaguar (Crusader) space. Jaguars do their own selective reporting and reveal that the Inner Sphere is closer then ever to being united and claim that ComStar might even know the location of the Clan homeworlds.
  
• The Clans vote to invade to invade (Operation Revival). They elect Smoke Jaguar's Khan Leo Showers to lead the invasion as the ilKhan (the Jaguar's elect a replacement Khan for their own clan). The Wolf's are the sole dissenting vote and they fight and lose a Trial of Refusal against several of the other clans to try to stop the invasion.
  
• After several Trials of Position it is decided that the invasion will be composed of Smoke Jaguar, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear and finally to rub salt in the wound Leo Showers assigned Wolf to the invasion (he also chose to lead the invasion from the Wolf's flagship so he could keep an eye on them).

---

First Wave
---

• The Clans attack. Everyone gets their butt kicked by the massive lead in technology and tactics possessed by the Clans.
  
• During an early battle against the Kell Hounds' mercenary unit they wipe out everyone but Phelan Kell, who was both the son of the Grand Duke of Arc-Royal and a direct descendant of Michael Ward, a close friend of Kerensky who is the source of the Ward bloodname. The Wolf's Khan Ulric takes him as a bondsman in order to learn more about the Inner Sphere. In return Phelan takes to the Clan ways and rapidly rises in stature.
  
• ComStar contacts the Clans and as a neutral entity proposes that they administer the conquered worlds on the Clans behalf. The Clans are led by warriors, not bureaucrats so they agree. Secretly ComStar sees this as a way for them to finally take control of the Inner Sphere.
  
• In a surprise twist an Inner Sphere pilot conducts a suicide run into the bridge of the Wolf's flagship. Phelan saves Ulric but Leo Showers is killed, requiring the Clans to pause the invasion while their leaders take the year long journey back to the Clan homeworlds to elect a new ilKhan.
  
• During this pause in the fighting the Wolf's Dragoons (who Ulric had ordered to cut all contact with the Clans and help the Inner Sphere) called everyone to a meeting where they revealed who the Clans where and what the invasion was about.

---

Second Wave
---

• The Crusader clans, still suspicious of the Wolf's and angry over Leo Shower's death on the Wolf flagship conspire by electing the Wolf's own Khan, Ulric, as the new ilKhan. Seperated from his own Clan and bound by honor to now serve all the Clans and the agreed upon goals of the invasion they think they have him under their thumb.
  
• In reality Ulric has the Crusaders where he wants them. Due to their understanding of Inner Sphere ways of war compared to the trial proxy wars of the Clans the Wolfs have actually made more progress then the other Clans who don't understand supply lines and other elements of strategy outside of battle. To 'correct' the slow progress of the other invading Clans Ulric added reserve Clans to the invasion (Nova Cat and Steel Viper), assigning them to the same invasion corridor as their Clan rivals, so that they would spend time fighting each other.
  
• The Clan invasion continues, however ilKhan Ulric deliberately 'mentioned' to ComStar's Precentor Martial that the Clan's ultimate goal was Earth, the first Clan that reached it would be the ilKhan.
  
• Since Earth was ComStar's planet they broke off their relationship with the Clan's and declared a trial of possession - a proxy fight would be fought on the evacuated planet of Tukayyid (on the edge of the invasion zone) between ComStar and each of the invading Clans. If the Clans won then Earth was theirs. If ComStar won the Clans had the stop their invasion at Tukayyid and obey a 15 year truce.
  
• ComStar reveals they actually have a big army equipped with mint condition Star League era mechs. Only Clan Wolf, who understood Inner Sphere warfare managed to complete their objectives. Ghost Bear and Jade Falcon won draws while the other clans where soundly defeated. ComStar won a 15 year truce for the Inner Sphere.

---

The Rufusal War
---

• The Clans where not happy about the truce. They created trumped up charges claiming Ulric was responsible. At the same time crusader elements in Clan Wolf, who had grown thanks to the Wolf successes in the invasion, threated to tear the Clan apart.
  
• Eventually the trumped up charges where raised to geno-cide (forum censors this word) and Ulric was voted guilty. Ulric demanded a trial of refusal, only instead of bidding himself or some token force he bid all of Clan Wolf.
  
• Secretly Ulric understood how the politics of the situation would work out, so his refusal and bidding of Clan Wolf where deliberate. He ordered Phelan Ward, now saKhan (second in command) of Clan Wolf to put up a token fight but in reality fall back with the rest of the Warden Wolfs to the Inner Sphere. At the same time Ulric took command of the Crusader half of Clan Wolf and threw it at the Clan who had won the bid to face them, the Jade Falcons. Ulric hoped that in doing so he would effectively destroy both the Crusader half of the Wolfs and maim the leading Crusader Clan, the Falcons.
  
• Warden Wolfs retreat to Inner Sphere, Phelan Ward becomes Phelan Kell again thanks to Ulric creating a 'Kell' blood name as his last official act as ilKhan, and the now Clan Wolf in Exile sets up shop with Phelan's father.
  
• Jade Falcon foils part of Ulric's plan. Instead of facing front line troops the Falcons sends their old and garrison troops in to wear down the Wolfs (very un-clan like) before attacking with their real warriors.
  
• In a last betrayl Jade Falcon saKhan Vandervahn Chistu agrees to a one on one fight with Ulric, but secretly uses a targeting laser to call in LRMs. Vlad, a Wolf Crusader who had been Ulric's second reveals this and kills Vandervahn in a trial of grievance.
  
• In light of this Jade Falcon Khan Elias Crichell chose to create Clan Jade Wolf with now Vlad Ward as Khan, instead of absorbing the remaining Crusader Wolfs. Clan Wolf was effectively destroyed in the eyes of the clans, with Jade Wolf being a new Clan and Clan Wolf in Exile not being recognized at all.
  
• Less then 3 weeks later Elias is elected as the new ilKhan, however Vlad immediately challenges and kills him in unarmed combat. No longer under the hand of the Jade Falcon's he renames his Clan as Clan Wolf (it is still a 'new' Clan that is unconnected to the old one, a point that factors into a number of later political battles that occur while Vlad bides his time).

---
tl;dr
Clan Wolf in Exile is lead by Phelan Kell and operates a mercenary unit in his father's kingdom of the Arc-Royal Defense Cordon, a break away republic in all but name that sits between the Jade Falcon occupation zone and the Lyran Alliance. They fight for the Inner Sphere.
Clan Wolf is a brand new clan lead by Vlad Wolf, now a Crusader Clan that is biding it's time.