92 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

ThePieMaker, on 21 May 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

The reason why both players are cored CT is because neither one turned their torso to the side and just let the LRM hit them CT. If the players had the sense to turn their torso 90 degrees to the side before the LRM's impacted, the damage would have been spread across their arms and side torsos as well.
If a player doesn't turn his torso to protect his center, he will get cored out with damage only to his centre no matter what weapon is being shot at him.

I'll just go ahead and quote Paul:

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

But Paul, you said you'd REMOVE splash damage!!!!
I know I did, but here's the kicker and yet another part of the mystery of missile damage. We tried removing splash damage and it did exactly what you think it was going to do. Pinpoint on target damage. Cool right? Yes... but...

Doing this exposed a problem with the grouping/clustering of missiles. We now have a high percentage of any incoming missile targeting the CT. This is BAD.

See that next to last sentence? That code is still in the game, and the only thing that was keeping it from absolutely wrecking the game was the rather severe damage nerf they did. Now they upped damage again, increased speed, and changed flight paths - so here we are again, with the very, very broken missile code rearing its ugly head again.

Edited by stjobe, 21 May 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[skullman86]

I've only played one round so far, and while I haven't formed much of an opinion on the effectiveness of the new flight path (tactics used by the teams were different; I'll give it that), I do think it needs work as far as visuals go. The animation is just really stiff looking compared to the pre-patch arc...it's like a single giant mass traveling on an invisible set of tracks.

EDIT: After playing with them for a bit, I think there might be something wrong (aside from the ugly looking missile arcs). If missiles are going to have such steep flight paths and extreme turning angles with the help of spotters, I don't think the increased speed is really necessary. Spotters have a more important role now, but that role isn't even a challenge. I was getting hits on targets after losing locks because the angle was perfect and the missiles were fast enough to get to the target before they could escape the splash zone. Spotters don't even have to be good at their job anymore as missile speed seems to make up for loss of sight etc. (especially on smaller maps).

Edited by skullman86, 21 May 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[armyof1]

Damage and speed is fine. Targetting CT as usual and the ridiculous flight path that will hit you almost directly from above is once again an old broken mechanic coming back just to remind us how the devs can never learn from past mistakes.

[MegaZordTrololo]

zwanglos, on 21 May 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

The entire center area of Tourmaline is now a no-man's land.

Do you mean the crater at theta or a wider area? Because that crater has always been a no mans land.

All I know is I am having much more fun now that the PPC spam is gone/diminished. I cope fine with LRM spam... It's difficult for the enemy to maintain lock and I more often that not can cover myself against them (I don't know why others are having so many troubles). Also LRM boats are in a lot of trouble when you close the distance unlike the PPC boats. (Which tore you apart at all ranges)

EDIT: And no, I don't really use LRM myself.

Edited by MegaZordTrololo, 21 May 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[Khanublikhan]

The poll is overly simplistic so I abstain from voting.

The flight path is a little too vertical. 70^o should be about the maximum approach angle (if even possible to code for).

Speed seems a little odd. Ideally, the ascent speed should be a tad slower (to see slow LRM ascent should be a warning). The descent speed is fine.

Possibly a very tiny tweak up in damage (to make individual LRM fittings a concern).
Slow the recharge rate for LRM weapons (like PPC's, LRM's need to be tweaked backwards into a support role.

Done.

[aniviron]

ThePieMaker, on 21 May 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

The reason why that guy is cored out CT is because he didn't shield with his side torsos/arms.
Same thing would happen against PPC's/Gauss

Incorrect. If you'd read my post, you'd note that I even turned my back entirely to spread damage to my relatively-intact rear armor, and still got cored from the front.

I can't say it any better than stjobe said above. Go read the quote from Paul about how missiles currently do too much damage to CT, and how the only thing keeping this from being a massive problem the last few months was the low LRM damage. But honestly, they don't do much more damage now- but they did get not one, not two, but three buffs to tracking strength, which means that almost every single missile is hitting ct or near it if you have arty+tag.

Kymlaar, on 21 May 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

I don't see the problem with an amazingly slow assault mech with a MASSIVE center torso getting hit primarily in the center torso by LRMs. I also notice that this huge mech doesn't have AMS, which it desperately should especially as a fire support mech. As well, the person in question seems to be largely in the open, with no possibility of cover from any side. And finally, the pilot isn't near anyone with ECM, which isn't their fault but it is their teams.

Basically what I'm saying is, LRMs have been so bad previously that we developed horrible tactics and habits. We need to unlearn those behaviors and then we might start to see a proper mixed range. As it was previously long range was all direct fire, and then it broke down to brawling. Now we might to see some interesting combinations of ranges on mechs without it being 100% ERPPC, Medium Laser, or something of that sort.

Go look at the screenshot again please, and see the Atlas DDC about 300m from me. He's right in the center of the image, near my crosshair, should be hard to miss. I will concede the point that I wasn't in good enough cover- most of the LRMs were coming from the enemy base/sigma area, and I am used to the massive building between me and my opponent providing cover, but the new LRM flight path means it might as well not be there.

[LordBraxton]

Flight path is completely broken.

Anyone who disagrees is just glad they are finally getting kills with a totally broken weapon system.

Need a hotfix ASAP

armyof1, on 21 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Damage and speed is fine. Targetting CT as usual and the ridiculous flight path that will hit you almost directly from above is once again an old broken mechanic coming back just to remind us how the devs can never learn from past mistakes.

this

[Edwyndham]

MegaZordTrololo, on 21 May 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Do you mean the crater at theta or a wider area? Because that crater has always been a no mans land.

All I know is I am having much more fun now that the PPC spam is gone/diminished. I cope fine with LRM spam... It's difficult for the enemy to maintain lock and I more often that not can cover myself against them (I don't know why others are having so many troubles). Also LRM boats are in a lot of trouble when you close the distance unlike the PPC boats. (Which tore you apart at all ranges)

EDIT: And no, I don't really use LRM myself.

No. The LRMs arc so high now that there is no effective cover in the entire 4 grid blocks around theta. F4/F5 E4/E5 is a no-man's land.

Most of the buildings in Frozen City no longer provide LRM shelter.

Canyon is practically dead on arrival because 95% of the map has no effective LRM cover.

And I haven't played on Alpine yet in this patch but I'm terrified of it now... used to be my favorite map, too.

Edited by zwanglos, 21 May 2013 - 02:30 PM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

armyof1, on 21 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Damage and speed is fine. Targetting CT as usual and the ridiculous flight path that will hit you almost directly from above is once again an old broken mechanic coming back just to remind us how the devs can never learn from past mistakes.

Army where are the heads of most mechs in the game? If you drop an apple from a rooftop where is is most likely going to hit someone? Missiles are supposed to have a high arc. It maximizes AoE when it comes to damage.

[LordBraxton]

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 May 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Army where are the heads of most mechs in the game? If you drop an apple from a rooftop where is is most likely going to hit someone? Missiles are supposed to have a high arc. It maximizes AoE when it comes to damage.

the arc is so high cover is worthless.

I literally mean that, 90% of buildings and ridges will not protect you at all

when cover is worthless there is no strategy involved

there is a sweet spot for LRMs but PGI seems to swing from worthless to broken overpowered and back again with nothing close to balanced and viable

[Dawnstealer]

ToxinTractor, on 21 May 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

They arnt that bad now. The AMS buff really helps to deal with them now. LRM 5s tho arnt as good sadly on there own though.

Haven't played it yet, but if all checks out how the FAQ had it, then it will suddenly make AMS builds far more useful. I personally like the idea of punch/counterpunch. It's going to force people to either build jack-of-all trades or, gasp, team up to get the right mix of stuff.

[LordBraxton]

zwanglos, on 21 May 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

No. The LRMs arc so high now that there is no effective cover in the entire 4 grid blocks around theta. F4/F5 E4/E5 is a no-man's land.

Most of the buildings in Frozen City no longer provide LRM shelter.

Canyon is practically dead on arrival because 95% of the map has no effective LRM cover.

And I haven't played on Alpine yet in this patch but I'm terrified of it now... used to be my favorite map, too.

the buildings at the bases do not provide cover either.

there is NO cover from LRMs on alpine or caustic, forest colony only has a few spots around cave and the hills on each side of cave.

LRMs are totally broken if you disagree you are just enjoying actually getting kills for once with a totally broken weapon.

I loaded up a few of my mechs with LURMs and had a hayday

then quit to wait for the hotfix

Dawnstealer, on 21 May 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Haven't played it yet, but if all checks out how the FAQ had it, then it will suddenly make AMS builds far more useful. I personally like the idea of punch/counterpunch. It's going to force people to either build jack-of-all trades or, gasp, team up to get the right mix of stuff.

I am noticing everyone happy with the change hasn't even played

[armyof1]

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 May 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Army where are the heads of most mechs in the game? If you drop an apple from a rooftop where is is most likely going to hit someone? Missiles are supposed to have a high arc. It maximizes AoE when it comes to damage.

The arc is so high there are barely any cover in some maps, how can you not see that is game-breaking? It's so crazy broken you can see it already after a few matches, and now everyone is using lrms just because of that.

[Cferre]

armyof1, on 21 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Damage and speed is fine. Targetting CT as usual and the ridiculous flight path that will hit you almost directly from above is once again an old broken mechanic coming back just to remind us how the devs can never learn from past mistakes.

The speed is not ok. Even if you are able to hide behind a building for example. That blocks all missile income,
you would not be able to get there fast enough even in a fast medium lol.

Lrm speed has to get back to 110 atleast. Apart from all the other crap that currently is going on.

[KuruptU4Fun]

armyof1, on 21 May 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

The arc is so high there are barely any cover in some maps, how can you not see that is game-breaking? It's so crazy broken you can see it already after a few matches, and now everyone is using lrms just because of that.

I'm not saying it's not broken, the more I play the more I agree with the "arc is to high" debate. But missiles do come from above, making a head a prime candidate for damage. That's why torso twisting is a good counter to spread out missile damage.

Cferre, on 21 May 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

The speed is not ok. Even if you are able to hide behind a building for example. That blocks all missile income,
you would not be able to get there fast enough even in a fast medium lol.

Lrm speed has to get back to 110 atleast. Apart from all the other crap that currently is going on.

Missiles were designed to go faster than the things they were targeting....

[LordBraxton]

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 May 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

I'm not saying it's not broken, the more I play the more I agree with the "arc is to high" debate. But missiles do come from above, making a head a prime candidate for damage. That's why torso twisting is a good counter to spread out missile damage.

for a long time I have supported the idea that LRMs do devastating damage when they connect (even to your head)

but at an even flatter flight path then pre-patch.

Make them challenging to use but devastating when they connect.

Right now they are the opposite, they auto-hit but do moderate damage.

The auto-hit avoid cover nonsense is too much to take, I'll be waiting for a hotfix

Edited by LordBraxton, 21 May 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Its impossible to tell right now just how good/bad is their damage because they all hit and they all hit CT only.

My Hunch has smth like 50 front CT armor and (I assume) about 30 internal CT. Thats 80 points. I was hit twice by a full pack of LRM 15. Armor gone completely, 3rd LRM 15 volley killed me. Thats 45 missiles doing 80+ pinpoint damage. I was not hit by anything else, was not tagged or narced.

I would expect 1 LRM do 1 damage (provided it actually hits) that is spread over a mech (aka 0.2 dmg to CT, 0.2 dmg to RT, 0.2 dmg to LT, 0.2 dmg to head etc.) not 1 damage to each location. Also, I would expect about 50% of LRMs actually miss me even if you have tag, narc, artemis, whatever.

Next thing is target decay. You say cover, I say no use, because with target decay it takes you like 3-4 seconds to actually lose lock after you are out of sight, which in turn means that LRMs will follow you around your cover and still hit you. With LRM speed increase you need to start going under cover before LRMs are launched.

Worst thing right now is that LRM boat launches them almost vertically up and they hit a target from almost directly above it. Even if you stay behind a wall it wouldn't matter - they still hit you. You need an extremely high object to actually protect you from LRMs.

I ask you ... is there any point in playing a game if only way to stay alive for more then 5 seconds is to just stay behind a skyscraper for the entire match?

[Cferre]

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 May 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Missiles were designed to go faster than the things they were targeting....

This is not RL...

You, as a player. Should be able to hide. Which is clearly not the case, currently.

Edited by Cferre, 21 May 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[stjobe]

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 May 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

But missiles do come from above, making a head a prime candidate for damage.That's why torso twisting is a good counter to spread out missile damage.

Only if your head is actually in your torso. If it's on top of your torso, twisting does nothing against head hits.

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 May 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Missiles were designed to go faster than the things they were targeting....

120m/s is 432kph. 'Mech top speed is 150kph.

Edited by stjobe, 21 May 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

LordBraxton, on 21 May 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

for a long time I have supported the idea that LRMs do devastating damage when they connect (even to your head)

but at an even flatter flight path then pre-patch.

Make them challenging to use but devastating when they connect.

That sounds exactly like what MRMs are.