66 replies to this topic

[aniviron]

Fate 6, on 21 May 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

You had 190 damage but 2 kills...That's not a lot of damage for 2 kills. Now, you either stole 2 kills or you cored mechs instantly. Which was it?

Guessing it was insta-coring. LRMs currently behave like this:

[MrZakalwe]

The splash needs to go- it means some chassis take far more damage from LRM/SRMs than others.

The arc needs to change; about halfway between old and new should work fine.

[Kiiyor]

Victor Morson, on 21 May 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

...
B: Anyone who doesn't understand how to counter and deal with LRMs
...

Then I humbly beg you kind sir, explain to me how to accomplish this please.

I've tried a great deal, and have been utterly unable to crack a 3+ LRM boat team with anything but other LRM boats.

I've tried sniping, but unless my cover is a skyscraper, i'm boned.

I've tried flanking in fast mechs, slow mechs, well armoured mechs, and all sorts of cheese and found it to be like Russian Roulette, only with 5 rounds in the chamber. I've even broken some of the stronger tenets of my PUG fanaticism and invited a few friends to participate, and have met with mixed success with flat out charges at solo or paired enemy boats.

You can't approach through cover, as there is none. As soon as you are spotted even a small distance from a nice fat mountain or skyscraper it's time for a Stalingrad style all or nothing charge, because running isn't really an option. Exploding is, though.

One or 2 LRM boats are manageable, if lots of your teammates are able to drag themselves from the walls they are trying to burrow into and join you in a charge, but if the enemy is standing off with them, they seem to me, for all intents and purposes, to be near invincible.

Thus far, the only counter I have found is to cower behind cover with any surviving teammates, and hope that the enemy LRM gods are focused on someone else while I try for potshots with long range weapons. Perhaps an organised charge could win the day, but the thought of pulling that off in the average pug makes me shoot liters of coffee out of my nose in blustering incredulity.

[Victor Morson]

Upon a LOT of testing tonight, I'm going to concede that a mild shift to their final falling arc should be given a slight nerf, by making the points where it calculates trajectory end a little further back. In otherwords I want to turn this:

--- X --- X --- X --- X ---

Into this:

-- X -- X -- X -- X -------

If that makes sense (Paul's original image would likely make this clearer.)

Also, one bug SHOULD be corrected immediately: The fact Artemis IV is working without LOS. The reason indirect fire is, in fact, severely overpowered at the moment is because Artemis is still working on targets that have already taken cover. If that's corrected, the one place LRMs are in fact OP right now will fall into line.

Kiiyor, on 22 May 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

Then I humbly beg you kind sir, explain to me how to accomplish this please.

I've tried a great deal, and have been utterly unable to crack a 3+ LRM boat team with anything but other LRM boats.

Tonight we had several victories against all LRM teams by taking a combination of Gauss and PPC Snipers, Ultra Autocannons and some Streaks... and most importantly AMS.

By securing heavily rocky cover, doing damage, and countering their advances with seismic sensors, we were able to win the vast majority of them with little to no LRMs of our own.

It requires a different mindset for pace: Getting to cover, digging in, fighting your way to the next cover point. People who ran straight out like you could last week are dead before you can tell them to come back.

Again as I conceded above, indirect fire is a little too powerful at the moment because of the Artemis grouping working in indirect mode and, as I have conceded, a slight tweak being needed towards the end of the arc; not much, just a 4-5 degrees at the very most.

But even as things stand this very moment, my point is that we've been able to beat LRMs with a mix of all the old school weapons, very directly.

In fact, I won't lie: There was a moment tonight where I was cursing LRMs myself. The very next drop we went up against an assault team sporting old school Gauss/PPC builds.About 1 minute into the game 75% of the team (Granted, PUGing) is wiped out by excellent Gauss snipers and a couple SRM boats. LRMs are not unstoppable even this second.

Edited by Victor Morson, 22 May 2013 - 04:19 AM.

[Agent of Change]

aniviron, on 22 May 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Guessing it was insta-coring. LRMs currently behave like this:

Your video means very little because of three factors:

• testing area mechs have crappy armor
  
• your targets were not moving at all
  
• your targets were in the open.

I could make a case that anything is OP using the testing area as my example.

After a couple hours of play last night spending time with and without my lurms it's clear the LRMs are viable now. It's not LRMpocalypse like the last time there was an lrm buff. My personal evidence is that by playing smart i got hit by them but never died to lrm's. At this point LRMs are back to being an intelligence test for the target, if you are dying to them you should reconsider the actions you were taking.

[Victor Morson]

Blue Hymn, on 21 May 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

I still prefer the original damage lrms were supposed to do before it was overnerfed. It was a great way to keep an area suppressed and forcing enemies to hide behind cover.

Well, time to make poptarts fight in the shade, eh?

Those LRMs + the 20% speed buff + new the new grouping buffs = fine.

Also who the hell is going to carry a NARC for the whole 1 or 2 people who aren't using Artemis IV but are also carrying a ton of missiles, over people using TAG/Artemis which is a whopping 1 ton instead?

[Kiiyor]

Victor Morson, on 22 May 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

Upon a LOT of testing tonight, I'm going to concede that a mild shift to their final falling arc should be given a slight nerf, by making the points where it calculates trajectory end a little further back. In otherwords I want to turn this:

--- X --- X --- X --- X ---

Into this:

-- X -- X -- X -- X -------

If that makes sense (Paul's original image would likely make this clearer.)

Also, one bug SHOULD be corrected immediately: The fact Artemis IV is working without LOS. The reason indirect fire is, in fact, severely overpowered at the moment is because Artemis is still working on targets that have already taken cover. If that's corrected, the one place LRMs are in fact OP right now will fall into line.



Tonight we had several victories against all LRM teams by taking a combination of Gauss and PPC Snipers, Ultra Autocannons and some Streaks... and most importantly AMS.

By securing heavily rocky cover, doing damage, and countering their advances with seismic sensors, we were able to win the vast majority of them with little to no LRMs of our own.

It requires a different mindset for pace: Getting to cover, digging in, fighting your way to the next cover point. People who ran straight out like you could last week are dead before you can tell them to come back.

Again as I conceded above, indirect fire is a little too powerful at the moment because of the Artemis grouping working in indirect mode and, as I have conceded, a slight tweak being needed towards the end of the arc; not much, just a 4-5 degrees at the very most.

But even as things stand this very moment, my point is that we've been able to beat LRMs with a mix of all the old school weapons, very directly.

In fact, I won't lie: There was a moment tonight where I was cursing LRMs myself. The very next drop we went up against an assault team sporting old school Gauss/PPC builds.About 1 minute into the game 75% of the team (Granted, PUGing) is wiped out by excellent Gauss snipers and a couple SRM boats. LRMs are not unstoppable even this second.

Ah, I see - and it's good to see a more reasoned approach to the issue, that was a well written post.

The trouble is though, that the teamwork you described will never exist in a PUG. The only really viable builds there at the moment all seem to involve LRMs, or anything else and a great deal of luck.

[Locutus239]

Stop drugs, you finally destroy a game.

[Rushin Roulette]

I would agree with the OP if the cover provided were enough. The problem is, all new maps are designed with nice slopes so that Mechs can walk up them. Even though the cover is really high... it doesnt help at all if the LRMs are comming down at 45° while you yourself are hiding behind cover witha 45° angle. That cover is no longer a valid cover.

Apart from distance, you wont be finding much valid Cover in Alpine Peaks or the new Canyon map (and to a certain extent also Tourmaline if the LRMs come in frmo high enough) because of this. Finding cover in the Frozen maps is also a bit iffy at the moment because many of the buildings are just not high enough to provide ample cover.

Id really love LRMs to be a viable alternative again... but not because they are virtually undodgeable when fired indirectly, but because people would think about considering PPCs, LRMs, Balistic, and Energy weapons as all being viable... not either or at the FOTM.

Im absolutely fine with the speed tweak (was sorely needed), the damage buff (could have waited to see how the speed buff affected the useage first though. But if 70% of the cover is made irrelevant to indirect fire, then they have been buffed too far (and this is a confirmed bug as teh Devs have written).

[Victor Morson]

Rushin Roulette, on 22 May 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

I would agree with the OP if the cover provided were enough. The problem is, all new maps are designed with nice slopes so that Mechs can walk up them. Even though the cover is really high... it doesnt help at all if the LRMs are comming down at 45° while you yourself are hiding behind cover witha 45° angle. That cover is no longer a valid cover.

What changed my mind to a slight descent angle nerf is getting a chance to play some other maps. While you can honestly find plenty of acceptable cover on many maps like Tourmaline and Frozen City right now, others - like Caustic Valley - limit your positional options to 2 or 3 places if you're facing missiles. Effectively you'd pretty much want to fight entirely around the edges of the map (high cliffs) because the center of the map is left way too slanted to take cover from.

It happens on a few other maps as well. I'd argue Alpine is a good example if it weren't so easy to out range LRMs there with snipers, but none the less. in order to make all of the maps have acceptable cover it does need to finish it's calculations before the dive sooner.

[Griffinhart]

aniviron, on 22 May 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Guessing it was insta-coring. LRMs currently behave like this:

What in the training grounds? Come back to us with a video of how they core folks that fast in an actual game. They most certainly don't behave like that in a real match. They might be clustering a bit more in the center than they used to, but they aren't coring anything in a volley or two.

[Nauht]

Victor Morson, on 22 May 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

What changed my mind to a slight descent angle nerf is getting a chance to play some other maps. While you can honestly find plenty of acceptable cover on many maps like Tourmaline and Frozen City right now, others - like Caustic Valley - limit your positional options to 2 or 3 places if you're facing missiles. Effectively you'd pretty much want to fight entirely around the edges of the map (high cliffs) because the center of the map is left way too slanted to take cover from.

It happens on a few other maps as well. I'd argue Alpine is a good example if it weren't so easy to out range LRMs there with snipers, but none the less. in order to make all of the maps have acceptable cover it does need to finish it's calculations before the dive sooner.

This is what I've been saying and PGI can see this. It's the more reasonable view. The drop angle is too steep and the splash damage to CT needs fixing.

Keep everything else.

I'm glad to be responding to a reasonable post about the matter from a LRM user. Most just want to keep it as is - partly I don't blame them. After months of feeling neutered they're entitled to their week in the sun. However everyone else will be turned off.

[Bernard Matthaios]

I'm happy to see LRM's make a return. For a while it was lame not to have any long range fire support. I see both sides though, Regardless. I say make LRM's even faster! Increase the "spread" damage, so it doesn't core so often. Fix the indirect LOS flight path.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Griffinhart, on 22 May 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

What in the training grounds? Come back to us with a video of how they core folks that fast in an actual game. They most certainly don't behave like that in a real match. They might be clustering a bit more in the center than they used to, but they aren't coring anything in a volley or two.

That video is crap. I was 2 shotting everything but the Atlas PRE-PATCH with the same loadout i have right now.

[Zerethon]

aniviron, on 21 May 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

<Snipped Video>

Because clearly every LRM shot is going to be on a stationary non-covered target who isn't shooting you.

If anything the new super-tight Tagged grouping makes them suck because the few missles that would make it over some cover before now don't and the whole ball of pain simply blows up harmlessly on the building/rock/etc edge.

/devilsadvocate

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ontop of that, those mechs all have stock armor levels...which is to say no armor.

I just played a match and got 4 kills and 2 assists. I did 500 damage.

You know what is funny? The jenner i killed screamed "NO SKILL".

I was standing 300m away from him with a 90 ton mech while he ran around in the open water in River City.

Why is that my fault? His entire team was in the open the entire match. They were in upper city for like 2 minutes and avoided my LRM's while in there.

[Owlfeathers]

Either the splash or the arc needs to be fixed. Either one wold be fine. Currently though, an LRM20 will kill me in one hit regardless of cover or not.

Agreed, they used to be underpowered. However, the maps were designed to be for LRMs as they used to be, not as they are now. There are now almost no locations where you can actually hide from LRMs effectively now, especially if you are using a light which won't survive more than one hit from them.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Owlfeathers, on 22 May 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Either the splash or the arc needs to be fixed. Either one wold be fine. Currently though, an LRM20 will kill me in one hit regardless of cover or not.

Agreed, they used to be underpowered. However, the maps were designed to be for LRMs as they used to be, not as they are now. There are now almost no locations where you can actually hide from LRMs effectively now, especially if you are using a light which won't survive more than one hit from them.

Wtf are you in that an LRM20 kills you in one shot while moving? LRM's still suck against moving light mechs.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 22 May 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[Sephlock]

Owlfeathers, on 22 May 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Either the splash or the arc needs to be fixed. Either one wold be fine. Currently though, an LRM20 will kill me in one hit regardless of cover or not.

Agreed, they used to be underpowered. However, the maps were designed to be for LRMs as they used to be, not as they are now. There are now almost no locations where you can actually hide from LRMs effectively now, especially if you are using a light which won't survive more than one hit from them.

LOOOOL

[PaintedWolf]

Quote

Ok, b4 patch artemis didnt work much, but now after this last patch, three games in a row i load out atleast 1000 missiles, and end up doing 270damage

http://mwomercs.com/...s-now-for-sure/

1000 Missiles- 270 Damage. Smart Move PGI.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 22 May 2013 - 03:36 PM.