38 replies to this topic

[SirDubDub]

The Blackjack. Specifically the ballistic models. What are your thoughts or ideas on piloting them effectively?

For no rational reason I've been looking forward to riding one of these things into battle since it was announced, and the pre-release general consensus of its weakness only strengthened my resolve to make the damn thing work (I think its a medium pilot thing).

So lets put our heads together and see if we can come up with some tips, tactics, and taboos for Blackjack pilots.

And yes. I know mediums are underpowered, and that I really should be running a Jagermech or some other kind of fat guy. But I we medium jocks kind of take pride in our irrationality.

Why? Because...




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I'm not nearly as clever as most of you crazy medium jocks, but I'll throw in a few thoughts so far. These are tentative tips, so go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong.

-The ballistic Blackjacks are not light hunters, or fast response units. Your speed will allow you to keep pace with most heavies/assaults, making you the meat-and-potatoes fire support unit. Stick with the fat guys to make the most of your mech.

-Blackjacks have enough armor to take a few punches for its buddies, but isn't built to tank like a hunch 4G or zombie cent. Try to limit your time as a damage sponge if at all possible.

-You aren't going to win any peekaboo battles in a Blackjack (ballistic variants mostly). The chassis doesn't support the kind of high alpha guerrilla weapons that most medium scrappers tend to have. That being said, the Blackjack can mount a respectable amount of sustained firepower with plentiful ammunition and proper heat management (either in the mechlab or on the field).

-The Blackjack is some kind of unholy spawn of a Jagermech (dakka dakka dakka) and a kangaroo (visual focus is on the legs, but most of the combat action happens up in them boxing arms). Hillsides are your friends, and you should hang out with them more often. The Blackjack is unique among mediums for having the majority of its payload at or above head height. This means that you can minimize exposure when you fire away at the reds.

-Son. You're a Blackjack. You just ain't gonna get kills. You can, however, be a credit to team by providing suppressing fire on enemy mechs, forcing them back into cover, breaking line of sight detection. This is particularly helpful against lights and spotters (try to minimize the time any of your buddies are targeted and therefore vulnerable to LRMs).
(EDIT: "you just ain't gonna get kills" has been proven false. However, remember that just because you have the dakka, you ain't Rambo.)


-The sustained damage output of the Blackjack combined with a slightly higher turn and twist rate than the fat guys means that you'll have an easier time damaging light harassers, particularly when taking out a light mech's leg can be done with greater consistency because you aren't relying on big, one-shot-and-wait weapons.

-You are the streak that they never saw coming. ECM has proven to be nearly useless against direct-fire medium mechs when their pilots have a good sense of situational awareness. When your minimap goes fuzzy, stay cool. Try to keep your bearings and remember where your teammates are. Be ready to repel (you don't actually need to take that damned 3L out. You just need to drive it off for the moment).
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So what do you crazy motherhumper medium pilots think makes the Blackjack work in the field?

Edited by SirDubDub, 23 May 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[An Ax Murderer]

I don't know how the Blackjack will turn out...

but +1 for humor... seriously

[80Bit]

One nice thing about the Blackjack is you can use the same mentality that light mechs use to justify using an XL engine. That is, remind yourself that in a low armored mech like this, even if you have a standard engine and survive losing a side torso, you are going to be killed 5 seconds later regardless, so you may as well use an XL.


With that in mind, a build like this is plenty viable. The new fire rate and range on the AC5 makes it quite respectable, and this Blackjack and run fire support with the best of them. Sure, there are plenty of better choices, but that's not the Blackjacks fault. He just wants to Dakka.

[Kommisar]

Kommi's BJ-1

I've been saving up to pick up my first medium mech. I have mastered 4 Assault variants, 2 Heavies and now my Spider 5D. But I haven't played with medium mechs since the days of closed beta. Largely because I had a ton of friends that picked up Hunchbacks back then and I was the guy filling in the assault role. But, things have rotated and now I'm looking at trying the mediums out again. I haven't made up my mind as to which mech yet; but the Blackjack was on my short list.

That is the first build that came to mind when I was thinking about a ballistic Blackjack. I'm not sold on the AC/2s for my play style. But, the AC/5s, I can dig. Especially with the reduced cool down (increased rate of fire). I tried out the AC/5s last night in my Jager with a quad AC/5 build. Worked out very nicely. It's not meta-breaking or anything, but it worked.

On the Blackjack, you are only getting two of them. I stuck with jump jets. Not many mediums have it, so it is an advantage that I would prefer to keep. Very useful for getting into good firing positions or even jumping over your forward line to ping a target if you are so inclined and skilled. I pretty much maxed the armor for obvious reasons.

No back up weapons. Big downside. But, the only way to pick them up is to drop engine size down or drop the JJs. (Oh, and before anyone asks, I had to take the DHS due to the engine limit thing).

You are going to be light support fire. Perhaps a distraction. Thirty rounds per AC is tight, but doable. Especially if you consider your average lifespan in game. But, the AC/5s give you range, so you can stay behind the front (if there is one) and throw metal into engaged targets. Downside is that lights are going to tear into you unless you are a good shot with those 5s. My quad AC/5 Jager can drop a light mech hard if it gets greedy. Dual AC/5s, well, half the damage.

Kommi's BJ-1 Mini-Brawler

Dropping the ranged support role all together, you can go for mini-brawler. AC/20 and all. You have the arm mount advantage over the Hunch, with JJs. But, with less armor. But, you are rolling along at close to 85 kph with an AC/20. A spoiler mech.

Kommi's BJ-1 Balanced

Then, my attempt at a balanced build. Using the "bad" AC/10. The 10 gives more range and ammo per ton, for less heat at the sacrifice of that big punch. It also allows you to throw on a large laser.


Overall, you have to just flat out like ballistics for this one. Otherwise, most of the energy builds are just going to be more efficient. On a small mech this size, where you are not packing a massive weapon load anyway, the DHSs can carry an ERPPC heat load just fine, for less weight and no ammo limitations.

AC/2s are still a chunk of weight and can rack up heat on sustained fire. I haven't tried the buffed MGs yet; but word is they are still not grabbing attention on guys builds. I think the LB10X would just not work well on this one as well. I kinda like the LB10X (or want to like it), but it needs to be paired with a weapon that can punch that armor off. Can't really do that on a 40 ton frame.

Mind you, the Blackjack was considered a failure of a mech in cannon / lore. For many of the reasons we face in trying to make it work. But, I like the high mounted weapons. This is the reason I love my Jager so much. You just have to find ways to work that advantage as much as possible I suppose.

[Deathlike]

Kommisar, on 23 May 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Kommi's BJ-1

That is not a valid build. It has 9 HS in it.

[BIoB]

Well I purchased my first Blackjack BJ-3 variant last night on a whim. Already knew its effectiveness would be limited but i wanted a new medium and I wanted jump jets =)............Also was looking for a challange in a mech, not the usual zombie or poptart you know?

So this is what im running....

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8e8604bfb25a1a2

I think you were looking for the balistic variants but thought i'd post anyway. My playstyle is essentially a harrasser/assault escort........strafing jump jets at full pace to deliver a 34 pinpoint alpha before changing direction behind the hill and repeating

Heat can be an issue(main way i die is overheating infront of bigger bullies) but I have weapon groups:1=the alpha, 2=just Large pulse, 3=chain fire all, 4=just arm mounted weapons.

Im averaging between 280 to 450(if I dont get pounded by lrms) with my best being 595,3kills 4 assists.........

Having some serious fun jumping over assaults and stabbing them in the back

Edited by Irish BoB, 23 May 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Ninthshadow]

OP, I like that attitude!

I can definately see it bringing those small ACs to cause some havoc. I'd be hesistant to say that it's not going to win any sniping matches. I've got my own little branch of insane that wants to see one of these peeking over a ridgeline and leaving holes in it's big brother the Jager. Fire support seems like a safe fallback once the mad(der) experiments are over.

Regardless, I'm intrigued.

[pow pow]

I like it,

though i avoid ballistics on smaller mechs due to having to be exposed too much to put out dps...

I prefer peekaboo style and hit and runs. (The bj is not that fast but can strafe most assaults and the ctf)

other goods :
XL engines are very viable because side torso hitboxes are quite small.

The smaller profile makes for a harder target. (big plus over it's big brother the jagger)

most weapons are positioned high up so you can ridge hug/peek more safely than other mechs. JJ are nice as well for this.

The armor is really nice and gives you a lot of confidence in duels with other meds or lights.

That being said, good light pilots will most always own you (I found it really suffers in strafing fights vs faster mechs.)

Good weapon symmetry. (i am a big fan of symmetry!)

and on the down side...
I believe you cannot build it faster than 80ish kph without really hurting it's firepower. (might as well grab a jenner)

arms than can't turn horizontally are really painful on a med mech...

no missile hard points. (i like my missiles...)

not much else i can think about.


Overall, i like it and love its looks (facehugger!!).

I run the bj-3 at 82kph with 38firepower, 272 armor, 23% heat.
my standard 4sp has 84kph with tweak, 38 firepower, 320 armor and 35% heat.
but i think i prefer the Bj due to being able to hit more accurate & often (weapons positioning + symmetry) and be hit less often (smaller profile)

regards,

Edited by pow pow, 23 May 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[BIoB]

@pow pow

Could you post your build, i'd like to see =)

[1453 R]

The main issue with the Jacks (other than the 1X, which is effectively an entirely different 'Mech), is the same issue suffered by the 'off' Ravens - the thing is too slow for its weight and too light for its speed. You don't have the raw mass you need to stand up in the scrum, and you don't have the speed to end-run the scrum and poke at vulnerable backsides (again, unless you're a 1X). As most pilots feel that these two roles are the only roles that realistically matter, the Blackjack is generally doomed to mediocrity in their heads.

However! As the forum's only active RVN-2X pilot, I know better. The Blackjacks will never be the gold star standard, but they can be made to work well enough for a pilot who accepts their limitations and works within them, rather than trying desperately to make the things do things they just can't do.

Ironically enough for a 'counter-insurgency' 'Mech (since when was that ever a good idea in the first place? o_O), the Blackjack strikes me as something of an insurgent itself. Blackjacks suck at brawling and don't make very good light-hunters with their limited firing arcs, so don't bother doing those things. Arm yourself to take bites out of fatties at range and act as a wingman for someone else doing the same thing. Ridge-snipe your face off and use that small profile to go guerrilla on people. I could see this thing being successful with dual AC/5s if one is willing to make the necessary sacrifices for them, and if we had rotary autocannons yet... [/drool]

The Jacks are force multipliers for other 'Mechs, rather than contenders in their own right. Your best bet is to bolt yourself to someone else and help them take things out faster rather than trying to go solo. Most any go-solo build you can hang on a Blackjack, a Hunchback or Centurion will do better. The HBK-4H has this sucker beat for most any single-ballistic build, with the exception of the possibly-interesting jumping AC/20. Even then though, most pilots would prefer the increased durability of the larger chassis and the standard engine to the Jack's jump capability.

I can't really say more without flying one, but I can say that I've not felt particularly threatened by a lone Blackjack so far, unless I was already so weakened that any attacker focused on me would've given me fits. That doesn't say much for the machine's solo viability...though I also haven't faced a proper 1X yet. Not really looking forward to the first time I encounter one of those...

[CGB Behemoth]

-Son. You're a Blackjack. You just ain't gonna get kills.

Made me laugh. Are you serious. Getting kills on any mech is just a matter of your piloting skill. Almost in every battle 2-3 kills not a problem for this little "sudden strike" mech.

[pow pow]

Irish BoB, on 23 May 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

@pow pow

Could you post your build, i'd like to see =)

BJ-3 jj

i play it as a sneaky striker.. it is close to a 4sp but instead of srm6s it has 2lls. so less brawling and more poking.

edit:noticed on the builder it says 39% cooling efficiency. whereas on mwo's mech lab it's at 1.23...
edit2:also forgot the jj

Edited by pow pow, 23 May 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[SirDubDub]

Kommisar, on 23 May 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Kommi's BJ-1 Mini-Brawler

Mother of god...

With speed tweak that's a 93 kph flying ac20...

Dear Santa...

[SirDubDub]

Behemothk, on 23 May 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

-Son. You're a Blackjack. You just ain't gonna get kills.

Made me laugh. Are you serious. Getting kills on any mech is just a matter of your piloting skill. Almost in every battle 2-3 kills not a problem for this little "sudden strike" mech.

Immediately after posting this topic my BJ-1 started to rack up multiple kills in almost every drop for the rest of the night.

You sir, are absolutely correct.

[Kommisar]

If I can get a kill in a match with a MG packing Spider 5K; anything is possible!!!!

Deathlike - DOH! I always forget the 10th heat sink on those smaller engines. I hate this mechanic they found to "balance" the heat. I would probably drop the engine down a ton to pick it up. I contend that the AMS is vital for this mechs success on the field.

SirDubDub - Yes it is. With 21 rounds to boot. This one ups the AC/20 Raven that I have seen a few times with more armor and jump jets. With the high mounts, this one has potential for the right pilot. Just ditch any of the bright camo colors and go with something that makes attention just slide off of you. Unfortunately, once someone sees that AC/20 on your mech, you will be targeted down quick. So, best to hang back, push the flank a little and be ready to charge in or wrap around when you can. OR, literally hid behind an assault mech and jump over his head. Just make sure you don't miss!!!

[Quadling]

looking at the chassis i would personaly ignore the ballistic hard points i dont run them on my 50 ton mechs much less a 45 its personal preference though... to those who claim the med mechs are u.p. come face off with me in my 4p, cent, or 7m ; come get some

[Raso]

It's not the most original but I've been running all medium lasers on the 1X with an STD275 engine. It's not a bad build. It's fast and packs a good punch. Because the weapons are spread out I have good reliability and by grouping them into 3 groups (arm, other arm and torso) I can manage heat very well.

I use it to smash any LRM boat foolish enough to boat LRMs with nothing more than a single medium laser. Also, clocking out at around 90kmh I can kinda-sorta scout (almost makes me want to get The-X).

This is back from using dual PPC and a set of medium lasers with a STD225 engine. I plan to try to make a PPC JJ with my next variant because lol poptarts and see how that works.

[Padic]

I haven't built/driven one, yet, but most of my mechlab tinkering has led me down the path of asymmetrical builds. I think that we're better off leaving one ballistic hardpoint empty and supplementing with bigger lasers/PPCs instead?

Blackjacks tend to scream XL to me. Low top speed, and thin max armor make survivability a tricky proposition anyway. The relatively low tonnage makes free weight extra valuable. The high weapon points and jumpjets both indicate a fire support role, which mitigates the weakness of an XL ...

Whenever I'm looking at ballistics, I end up saying to myself, "Why double up on AC5's when I could just get 1 AC10?" and "Why go AC10 when I can just go UAC5/AC20/Gauss?"

AC20 and Gauss both feel like too big an investment for a mech this size, to me. So that leads me to investigate single UAC5 builds.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...539b2659363cd37

I haven't spent a lot time tinkering ... perhaps a standard Large Laser instead of the ER...?

Well, that's, at least, is along the lines of what I'm considering.

[Raso]

OK! This is what I'm running after a bit of refinement. She's fast, packs a punch and is pretty fast. (did I mention she's quick?)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c3e96df82526afa

I group the weapons per arm and the torso which allows me to manage heat. I choose the small lasers in the torso for 3 reasons: to help manage heat, because I'm zipping around so fast I frequently come in close enough to make it worth while and because I frequently lose my side torso weapons due to crits before my arms (same issue with my Jager mech and same reason why I pack quad small lasers rather than dual medium lasers on my JM6-S).

By other build is a speedy dual PPC build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1d911cb3bbae5bc

Nothing too spectacular but she can quickly get into and out of position and I find that to be a plus (I can't tell you how many times I've seen a sniper hiding half way across the map contributing nothing to the team rather than getting into position). Not gonna lie, she does run a bit hot but it really only becomes an issues at medium close range when I don't pick my shots with my PPC and pair them with my medium lasers.

(Torso armor distribution on the posted builds do not reflect my actual front/back distribution)

Edited by Raso, 25 May 2013 - 05:40 AM.

[Gigastrike]

Raso, on 25 May 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

OK! This is what I'm running after a bit of refinement. She's fast, packs a punch and is pretty fast. (did I mention she's quick?)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c3e96df82526afa

I group the weapons per arm and the torso which allows me to manage heat. I choose the small lasers in the torso for 3 reasons: to help manage heat, because I'm zipping around so fast I frequently come in close enough to make it worth while and because I frequently lose my side torso weapons due to crits before my arms (same issue with my Jager mech and same reason why I pack quad small lasers rather than dual medium lasers on my JM6-S).

By other build is a speedy dual PPC build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1d911cb3bbae5bc

Nothing too spectacular but she can quickly get into and out of position and I find that to be a plus (I can't tell you how many times I've seen a sniper hiding half way across the map contributing nothing to the team rather than getting into position). Not gonna lie, she does run a bit hot but it really only becomes an issues at medium close range when I don't pick my shots with my PPC and pair them with my medium lasers.

(Torso armor distribution on the posted builds do not reflect my actual front/back distribution)

You're doing some amazing things with standard engines. Up until now I've considered XLs necessary, but I might have to go back to the drawing board for a lot of my mechs.