24 replies to this topic

[Aaren Kai]

Is it me or does the medium laser feel like it is going backwards in the current weapon/game balance? Quick recap;

PPC - decent damage, burst damage, range
LRM - decent damage, extreme range, arch trajectory
AC20 - great damage, burst damage, not so good range
Guass - good damage, burst damage, good range

Medium laser - long duration, low to decent damage (per weight), medium levels of heat

Throw in weight, and heat and perhaps it's balanced... Maybe not. My opinion, the burst damage meta is pushing everything to a shoot and retreat game play. Brawling is dead BECAUSE of damage transfer and spot hitting.

Now the medium laser requires you to get into range, not easy, focus aim thought out the duration of the fire, to apply low damage. See where I am going? Throw on lots of armor and now the medium and light mechs are starting to fade. If it wasn't for new mechs and people wanting to play something different, would we even see them?

Alright, to my point. If we lowered the duration, maybe you might see people who would consider flanking, running in, and brawling at those short ranges if the weapon allowed for quicker punch so that you could go back to maneuvering instead of staring at an assault showing your ct for a long time waiting for that next alpha.

Thoughts?

Edited by Aaren Kai, 24 May 2013 - 03:45 AM.

[The Cheese]

I think it's going to take more than a shortened beam duration to get lasers to be as effective as they once were. It's not just about how long it takes a weapon to do it's damage, it's about how that damage is dealt.

Lets compare a ML with an AC5. Both do 5 damage. The ML does it's damage in tiny amounts, rapidly, over the course of a second. My understanding is that each of those tiny amounts has a chance to crit. The crit multiplier is calculated based on the fraction of the beam, meaning it does diddly squat. The AC5, on the other hand, does it's damage all at once. One hit, 5 damage, plus crit multiplier if it procs. If I'm wrong about this, please tell me.

Basically, the ballistic weapons are better crit component killers because when they do crit, they do more damage because the crit multiplier is based on the full 5 damage, rather than the tiny fraction of a beam.

Then there's the whole 'pinpoint damage to one segment' thing, but you've gone over that.

THEN there's the whole 'laser cooldown doesn't start until the beam is finished firing, meaning the total time between shots is is actually (beam duration)+(cooldown)' thing.

As Jack implies in the next post though, MLs are still seen in numbers in every single match. It's not like there's a shortage of them around.

Edited by The Cheese, 24 May 2013 - 04:14 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Are you somehow under the impression that people aren't using MLs?

[Belorion]

For the tonnage price of one AC-20 you can have 14 Medium Lasers, which is an alpha of 70 vs the AC-20's 20.

If the other weapons didn't have some kind of advantage no one would ever use anything but Medium Lasers.

[Sturmforge]

Belorion, on 24 May 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

For the tonnage price of one AC-20 you can have 14 Medium Lasers, which is an alpha of 70 vs the AC-20's 20.

If the other weapons didn't have some kind of advantage no one would ever use anything but Medium Lasers.

Ummm...No. You have to take into account more than just weapon weight. That 14 medium lasers is an instant shutdown where the AC-20 will still be moving and fighting. You also need to take into consideration heat sinks and ammo.

[Liberator]

What are you smoking, medium lasers are so win that it hurts, i mean, 2 medium lasers can be added for ***** and goggles and will be more dangrous than an ac5 as long as you get in range. That ac 5 is HEAVY and it needs ammo that has more weight than 2 whole unlimited ammo medium lasers.

Not to mention that is you could cram 14 medium lasers into something you would like, you know, kill what you shoot at, you don't care that you might shutdown a bit, this is why we do not have 14 medium laser boats.

They where even better in closed beta, but got nerfed, everyone still mounts medium lasers.

[Aaren Kai]

I'm sorry, did I somehow imply this discussion was on the AC 5?

No. In addition name me the mech that has 14 energy base slots to hold this mythical build.
What do we have, Jenner f with 6, the new BJ-1X with eight(?), and the hunch with I think 8.

So, now max out the armor for any of those, add as much speed as you can, fill what ever amount of heat sinks (hahaha-lucky if you get two shots before near max. Now run across 800 meters plus to get to within 270 meters, fire those shots, hold focus for duration, and then retreat out to cover or out of range.

PPC boat, turn and focus fire for less then, oh... Two seconds. Turn a little bit to spread the ml damage. Turn back get easy kill.

So your probably saying something like 'don't run at them'. Sneak and flank... Yep, that seismic is really helping there. 'Use terrain' well okay on a couple of maps I might get in for one or two shots. See above about having to focus fire and stare at an assault with high alpha...

Thus bring me back too... When and if I can get close enough, I would like to fire and move away. I would like my fire to hit in one place and not spread 2-3 damage across his arms and torsos, while they turn and firepower blank.

It is like you guys are thinking I am saying have ML be some god like weapon. I am saying take .25 of a second off it... Seriously.

[Roland]

This thread focuses on a suggestion to roll back some of the early weapons changes from closed beta, due to changes in major aspects of the game since those changes were made.

http://mwomercs.com/...alance-changes/

[Belorion]

Sturmforge, on 24 May 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

Ummm...No. You have to take into account more than just weapon weight. That 14 medium lasers is an instant shutdown where the AC-20 will still be moving and fighting. You also need to take into consideration heat sinks and ammo.

Yes, but a 6ml(30 damage) mech with a hand full of heat sinks has a much higher dps than the AC-20.

[The Cheese]

Aaren Kai, on 24 May 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

I am saying take .25 of a second off it... Seriously.

And I was saying that taking .25 seconds off the beam won't make it any better.

Aaren Kai, on 24 May 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

I would like to fire and move away. I would like my fire to hit in one place and not spread 2-3 damage across his arms and torsos, while they turn and firepower blank.

As long as the lasers have a beam duration, that is never going to happen.

I used the AC5 as a comparison because it does the same damage per shot. That's all. It was just to illustrate the difference in damage models to try and show a perk of ballistic weapons over beam weapons.

[MeiSooHaityu]

MLasers are the bang for the buck sort of weapon. When you can't fit bigger energy weapons, but want something with descent damage, range, and heat control. It seems to perform it's job well in this game. No complaints.

[ferranis]

Belorion, on 24 May 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

Yes, but a 6ml(30 damage) mech with a hand full of heat sinks has a much higher dps than the AC-20.

If you keep the ML on a subsystem target during the whole duration, i (and many others) will torso twich like mad as soon as i see massed medium lasers.

[Twisted Power]

Well, I have plenty of mechs with Med lasers. It is not my go to weapon of choice but it is prevalent in many builds I have. If you are NOT using Med lasers on certain mechs then you are doing it wrong.

[Boogie Man]

Medium lasers are more than good enough right now. Some of the other weapons are what are out of whack. If anything medium lasers might be a little too good when you factor in all things such as heat range weight and damage. They need to put PPC's back to the old table top heat to begin with and missiles in general are a mess right now.

Edited by Boogie Man, 24 May 2013 - 06:26 AM.

[Belorion]

ferranis, on 24 May 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

If you keep the ML on a subsystem target during the whole duration, i (and many others) will torso twich like mad as soon as i see massed medium lasers.

You have to turn to them sometime. This is really no different than with an ac-20. I was just in a dual the other day with a dual AC-20 Jager. I managed to not die by spreading the damage out. I think I ended the match with 25% or so armor, but I lived, and the Jager didn't. I was using large lasers not medium but the principle is the same.

[Rebas Kradd]

Simple way to find out if ML are broken/unbalanced: Do people use them? If so, they're all right.

[Reith Dynamis]

personaly i think the beam duration should be shorter. I understand PGI wanting to be the way it is now so it takes skill to use but honestly i dont like it. I suppose pulse should be instant if regular lasers time are short. But thats how i personally feel. Not sure if everyone would go for it.

[Side Step]

Not sure what you're getting at.

Medium lasers among the weapons that have the highest alpha/ton and dps/ton and it doesn't require ammo. It's drawbacks are beam duration, lowish dmg/heat and short range. Since it doesn't require ammo, you can use the tonnage saved for heat sinks to negate one of those disadvantages.

It's the bread and butter of weapons. Nothing wrong with them.

[Malagast]

Medium lasers are awesome...whats wrong with you?

Side Step, on 24 May 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

It's the bread and butter of weapons. Nothing wrong with them.

I disagree. They melted my butter and burnt my bread(toast?).

[Lefty Lucy]

OneEyed Jack, on 24 May 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

Are you somehow under the impression that people aren't using MLs?

Since ballistic HSR and PPC heat buffs I've definitely seen a lot of lights and mediums eschewing MLs for PPCs and sometimes LLs since range is so dominating.

I don't think they're terribly underpowered, but I also think that they could deal with going back to 3 heat. Give small lasers 1 or 1.5 heat to make up for their disastrously-short range as well.