102 replies to this topic

[Escef]

Sable Phoenix, on 06 June 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

I've frequently piloted my Elited Hunchbacks, even the one with a maxed out engine, and found myself unable to outrun or outturn a BoomJager and unable to get behind its torso twist. Three guesses as to how those fights went; first two don't count.

A maxed out Hunch is 6.3 kph faster than a maxed out Jager, provided both have speed tweak. You can out run him, but unless you have cover all you are accomplishing is giving him an easy target.

[Kraven Kor]

Volts, on 05 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Huge mobility lol?

I agree, they hurt, and are fairly pinpoint, but in essence it's just a 40 (50) pt alpha.

Try playing one.

They are hit or miss, and while capable of running through an entire team if they let you, they pretty much have to let you. If you get focused, you are dead. If you square off with an Atlas or Highlander or SplatCat - who can aim - you are toast. If you get a light on your back and no help, toast.

If the opposing players allow you to shoot them in the face, repeatedly, while unable to hit a 70kph target less than 300m from them... you rule the scoreboard.

They are not "OP" just brutally effective at one thing and one thing only. Don't let them do that thing.

[Bagheera]

Kraven Kor, on 06 June 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Try playing one.

This. If you are really having a ton of trouble fighting something, then play it for a while. You'll discover all sorts of ways to kill it.

[Stone Profit]

OP just wait til 3 ac/20 Victors...

[Deathlike]

Stone Profit, on 06 June 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

OP just wait til 3 ac/20 Victors...

That should've been followed up with "teeheehee".

[LordDante]

Stone Profit, on 06 June 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

OP just wait til 3 ac/20 Victors...

ill have one for shure!

[El Bandito]

I want my 4 AC20 Annihilator.

[DarkDevilDancer]

I'd love an annihilator even though they were wolf dragoon exclusive we already threw that away when you let non lyrian pilots take a commando.

Edited by DarkDevilDancer, 07 June 2013 - 04:15 AM.

[Sephlock]

Which model Victor will be able to carry 3 ac/20s?

Or were you just teasing me with false hope ;(?

[Sephlock]

Wait a second, left leg, right leg?

No 3x AC/20s for me .

[TehSBGX]

I run mediums and I don't find ac40 jagers that bad. They're glass cannons. All you need to do is stick and move. At least with a medium >.>

[Volts]

Kraven Kor, on 06 June 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Try playing one.

They are hit or miss, and while capable of running through an entire team if they let you, they pretty much have to let you. If you get focused, you are dead. If you square off with an Atlas or Highlander or SplatCat - who can aim - you are toast. If you get a light on your back and no help, toast.

If the opposing players allow you to shoot them in the face, repeatedly, while unable to hit a 70kph target less than 300m from them... you rule the scoreboard.

They are not "OP" just brutally effective at one thing and one thing only. Don't let them do that thing.

I'm assuming you quoted me by mistake?

[Ryebear]

2xAC20 Jags arent slow and arent glass cannons and dont have incredibly short range. With a 300 XL and 42 shots and no medium lasers it goes ~83 kph. And they arent glass cannons, they are exactly as vulnerable as every Jag. And at 540m, the regular PPCs optimal range they do the same amount of damage, albeit the damage dropoff after that is much faster and the projectile speed is definitely a problem.

Anyway I've been thinking about why this problem and the big thing is, for ballistics, we trade range for damage and weight. That is playing with the assumption that +Range and -Weight = +Damage. This is simply not true, higher single hit damage is more valuable than the combination of longer range and lower weight. It is more valuable because all the damage hits a single location, weakening that location. We all know its more efficient to just punch through a single torso section to kill a mech than it is to go through all of them.

I think redesigning Autocannons in general is the right idea. I've been thinking of two ideas that would be nice to see one of.

• Speeding up the cooldown and lowering the damage of the cannons while maintaining their DPS. AC/20 has a cooldown of 2.5 seconds but fires slugs of 10 dmg each. AC/10 has cd of 1.8 and dmg of 7 per slug etc.
  
• Giving the autocannons a burst. It will effectively work like the lasers with a 'beam' duration. The AC/20 would fire 3 slugs of 6.7 dmg over 0.5 seconds etc. This would actually be canon as per all the flavour text for the autocannons.

The PPC would have to be handled a different way. And While that would give the frontloading damage advantage to the gauss rifle, it still is a bomb attached to a battlemech.

Edited by Ryebear, 07 June 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Ryebear, on 07 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

2xAC20 Jags arent slow and arent glass cannons and dont have incredibly short range. With a 300 XL and 42 shots and no medium lasers it goes ~83 kph. And they arent glass cannons, they are exactly as vulnerable as every Jag. And at 540m, the regular PPCs optimal range they do the same amount of damage, albeit the damage dropoff after that is much faster and the projectile speed is definitely a problem.

Anyway I've been thinking about why this problem and the big thing is, for ballistics, we trade range for damage and weight. That is playing with the assumption that +Range and -Weight = +Damage. This is simply not true, higher single hit damage is more valuable than the combination of longer range and lower weight. It is more valuable because all the damage hits a single location, weakening that location. We all know its more efficient to just punch through a single torso section to kill a mech than it is to go through all of them.

I agree, for me the main problem with Jagerbombs and other high pin-point alpha builds that can move 70kph+ (Dual Gauss Heavies etc) is that they can give chase and disable pretty fast, if they don't outright core an enemy in less than ten seconds. If they miss here or there you might last a tad longer and might escape, but if you're down to orange or red internals, you ain't lasting that much longer when ur spotted by the enemy again, especially if its faster than you or carrying something long range to try and get an easy kill.

Then having more than one of the high pin-point alpha builds focusing fire is even more brutal then facing against one, often leading to a heavily lopsided match with the focused mechs quickly dropping one by one regardless of the skill of either team.

Ryebear, on 07 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

I think redesigning Autocannons in general is the right idea. I've been thinking of two ideas that would be nice to see one of.

• Speeding up the cooldown and lowering the damage of the cannons while maintaining their DPS. AC/20 has a cooldown of 2.5 seconds but fires slugs of 10 dmg each. AC/10 has cd of 1.8 and dmg of 7 per slug etc.
  
• Giving the autocannons a burst. It will effectively work like the lasers with a 'beam' duration. The AC/20 would fire 3 slugs of 6.7 dmg over 0.5 seconds etc. This would actually be canon as per all the flavour text for the autocannons.

The PPC would have to be handled a different way. And While that would give the frontloading damage advantage to the gauss rifle, it still is a bomb attached to a battlemech.

I happen to like the idea of providing greater variety with the Autocannons, but what if the differences between Auto Cannons was done per chassis?

For example, since Jagers are originally intended to be anti-air platforms, they should be set up as using Auto Cannons that fire multiple projectiles no matter the AC weapon class equipped by a Mechwarrior (be it AC2s, AC20s, etc), this would keep then as Direct-Fire Support and still be effective.



And with PPCs, I figure it would be better to keep then as they currently are and have a separate Hardpoint,

or even have PPCs work as described on Sarna, "fir[ing] a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target," I guess pretty much being a long range Pulse Laser, instead of acting like a projectile.

Edit: I've been thinking more that maybe PPC's could also work differently based on what Mech they are mounted, instead of restricting them with a separate hardpoint. I think its better to try and keep options open and have more variety with weapons and the chassis variants.

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 07 June 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Shakespeare]

I can make room for the argument that ANY weapon that front-loads damage, along with instant conversion, makes balance difficult and can feel unfair. I'm absolutely in favor of making virtually every gun more of a DoT weapon.

But the AC40 Jager is literally the least threatening example of this. High weight, low range, low endurance, XL engine (or SLOWWW), vulnerable arms, no lateral arm movement. It's an ambush/ fire-support mech, and it's at its best when working in tandem with something a bit bigger to take fire while it rips limbs off. They get focused down like nobody's business otherwise. In the PUG scene, it's a tougher target, because you can't always count on your team to focus in on the high threat mechs, or to call them out, but this is a teamwork implementation problem, not a balance problem. Even then, if THEY aren't playing in tandem with their team, it's damned rare for a BoomJager to take over the match. PPC boats don't have half the vulnerabilities of ballistic boats, and calling for their nerf is just confirmation bias and bad death streaks getting in the way of the big picture.

I'll put it another way - I drive atlases. If I round a corner and see one, it's cause for concern, because that fight is probably going to cost me half my mech, and limit my impact on the rest of the match. If I see him coming? Oh, he's toast. In 8's, they're priority targets, because they can mess up a forward assault FAST, but they also drop quick, and that's a lot of damage you just saved your team by killing it early. If you want to discuss balance as it directly relates to teamwork, go play 8's, and you'll see what's winning matches. Hint: it's not the group of 5 AC20 Boats. Until recently, it sure as **** WAS the PPC Jumpers.

That's the difference between 'needs tweaking' and 'I don't like losing so tweak it'.

[Kraven Kor]

Volts, on 07 June 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

I'm assuming you quoted me by mistake?

No, your response is just what elicited mine.

I was not saying "Try playing one" to you in particular, but to everyone in general.

Nor was it meant to be said condescendingly or anything.

[Volts]

Kraven Kor, on 07 June 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

No, your response is just what elicited mine.

I was not saying "Try playing one" to you in particular, but to everyone in general.

Nor was it meant to be said condescendingly or anything.

You just seemed to be agreeing with me is all, but presenting it in opposition to my post (I posted again on the same page).

I agree the ac40 is good, but its not a game changer.

[Sable Phoenix]

None of the BattleTech-based video games have actually gotten ACs right yet. Or PPCs for that matter. ACs should be a burst weapon, and PPCs should be direct-fire, not a projectile. Particle BEAM weapons are just that, beams, like the lasers. This game does the lasers right; PPCs ought to function just like a giant laser. ACs on the other hand should have their damage determined by the number of projectiles they fire: while an AC/2 might fire only one projectile per volley, an AC/20 would fire ten (as an example). Those two simple changes would ameliorate the biggest problems with weapon balance that this game currently suffers (at least outside of the missile targeting and splash issues, which are more a programming difficulty than actual weapon design problems from what I understand). By making most high-damage weapons DOT you solve the problem of frustrating one-alpha kills, and you render pop-tarting ineffective, all in one fell swoop.

Edited by Sable Phoenix, 08 June 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[Deathlike]

Sable Phoenix, on 08 June 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

None of the BattleTech-based video games have actually gotten ACs right yet. Or PPCs for that matter. ACs should be a burst weapon, and PPCs should be direct-fire, not a projectile. Particle BEAM weapons are just that, beams, like the lasers. This game does the lasers right; PPCs ought to function just like a giant laser. ACs on the other hand should have their damage determined by the number of projectiles they fire: while an AC/2 might fire only one projectile per volley, and AC/20 would fire ten (as an example). Those two simple changes would ameliorate the biggest problems with weapon balance that this game currently suffers, outside of the missile targeting and splash issues. Pop-sniping would be impossible, and by making most high-damage weapons DOT you solve the problem of frustrating one-alpha kills.

I've seen the ACs look different in the MW games, so I'm not sure if it's a balance/design issue or an artistic one. MW3's version probably isn't a bad thought to making ACs more balanced instead of one gigantic load.

PPCs unquestionably have been a projectile or projectile-like. Imagine if it were a super powered ER Large.. that's too good for the purposes of what it does. So with respect to PPCs, I don't have an issue with that.

I think you're too caught up with the fact that it is a projectile.. it is direct fire just as lasers are direct fire. The only difference is that it uses a projectile trajectory. It's just a consequence of its design.

[Fate 6]

Spheroid, on 05 June 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

AC-40 is not a death sentence, you just need to avoid being taken by surprise at close range which is pretty easy with help of the seismic module. Also you neglected to say what mech you are using when facing AC-40s. That would help the feedback.

It could be standing still as I round the corner in a medium mech. If that happens, it's lights out for me. Can't turn my torso away because then I get literally oneshotted in the back. So I have to face him and just eat 40 damage to my CT, which is almost all of my armor.